Could God create a rock he couldn't lift?

Mr. Sprinkles said:

Scott-- I'm not making a statement of fact. This is completely hypothetical, because we don't even know if A is true. This is what I'm saying: IF A is true, THEN B cannot be true. Illogical? How? I think you theists should lay off the question for a bit and get cracking on the answer instead.

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He he he..... don't try and direct me back to the illogical question until you answer mine.

I hope your quote from my last thread shows that you ARE using these questions as a means to determine fact. Why else would you come to the conclusion :"This leads us to the conclusion that saying God is omnipotent is unreasonable, and the theists only hope is to then disparage our use of reason altogether."..............
How can you come to a conclusion on a hypothetical, illogical question????
Explain that to me please.

This is completely hypothetical, because we don't even know if A is true. This is what I'm saying: IF A is true, THEN B cannot be true. Illogical? How?

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Look at what you are writing for one minute and explain to me logic.... I apparently don't know what the word means.

"This is completely hypothetical......" Ok, I follow so far.... but then you say:
"IF A is true, THEN B cannot be true." Cannot be true. Can not. A statement of fact. Explain to me using your reason and logic how you can make a statment of FACT with a hypothetical question. PLEASE!

Smile!
Scott

I agree that this question is illogical, but it seems that the athiests are stuck in a circle with no way out. I think you and your cohorts seem to think illogical questions like this give you evidence to make rational, logical decisions.

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Lol, my cohorts indeed. There seems to be some miscommunication: I never said the question was illogical. The question is purely logical and clear: Can god make a rock that he cannot lift and remain omnipotent? Any explanation which claims that yes, he can remain omnipotent even though his power is limited by not being able to lift the rock, is illogical.

I don't see how our quotes contradict each other. It seems to me that we're all pretty much in agreement, but perhaps I'm missing something...

As far as stengthening faith goes, why don't you try and take a stab at answering?

For the argument which says that God will still remain omnipotent as God can defy logic. If God exists and can defy logic then He can condemn the good to hell and raise the evil to heaven. He can set eternal torture to those who are honest and eternal happiness to those who are dishonest. If God can defy logic, then why can't He and why wouldn't He do such things?
If God can defy logic, that would mean that nobody can or should try to understand God if He exists. It would mean that no one can claim whether the person is doing right or wrong, good or bad since God would be able to change His motive and purpose without a reason. Defiance of logic would mean denial of justice since justice is based on logic, i.e. the fact that A is A and B is B. A cannot be B.

cvipertooth said:

A rational object can never become larger than an object that is not bound to laws of the universe, such as matter or energy.

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erm.. so matter and energy are not bound to the laws of physics.....?

WOOT I CAN FLY NOW WHEEEEEE *flys out of den window after shooting beams of spontaneously generated heat energy at his dog*
either your science or language instructors were in the wrong somewhere

I'm just trying to interupt a thread based on clever, humerous, but ultimately theologically un-satisfying statements

And could a good God do something evil?
Peace

oh yea, and God cannot exist without logic, because he was created by it
*If I pray, and good things happen, a wonderful God must exist, I'm happy now.*

Ceridwen,

I don't see how our quotes contradict each other. It seems to me that we're all pretty much in agreement, but perhaps I'm missing something...

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The part I believe you are missing is that you are using a hypothetical (non-logical) question to determine for yourself a factual (logical) conclusion.

That is illogical. Get it?

As far as stengthening faith goes, why don't you try and take a stab at answering?

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The question has been answered 2 or 3 times on this thread.... you just can't understand it.

You know I love ya "C", but for one second try an imagine an answer, based on logic, reason , or faith, that you STILL can't understand...... the answer is there right in front of your face, sometimes people just ignore evidence that would be to hard to come to grips with..... just a thought.

Peace,
Scott

The part I believe you are missing is that you are using a hypothetical (non-logical) question to determine for yourself a factual (logical) conclusion.

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Scott-- Herein lies the problem. Hypothetical is not the same as non-logical.

We can come to a conclusion based on fact with a hypothetical question. For example, let's say hypothetically that I say "I am lying". If that statement is true, then I am lying. If that statement is not true, then I am lying. So we don't know if my statement is true, but we do know for a fact that whether or not the statement is true, IF I say "I am lying", THEN I am lying. "If then" statements are crucial to formal logic...don't you know your Aristotle? :bonk:

Hence, it is perfectly logical to come up with a factual conclusion based on hypothetical reasoning. What's illogical is for you to say "the answer is right in front of your face" to Ceridwen without actually giving her an answer.

Mr. Sprinkles,

Finally.

I thought it would be pah, but you finally caught me. Can't blame me for having a little fun, can you? Yes, I know my Aristotle, but it seems that some people don't..... I was wondering how long it would take for you logic fans to see through my ruse... he he he.

OK.... let's see if we can clear this up once and for all..... (yeah right!)
Main Entry: [1]om·nip·o·tent
Pronunciation: -t&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin omnipotent-, omnipotens, from omni- + potent-, potens potent
Date: 14th century
1 : often capitalized : ALMIGHTY 1
2 : having virtually unlimited authority or influence
3 : obsolete : ARRANT
Main Entry: [1]al·mighty
Pronunciation: ol-'mI-tE
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English ealmihtig, from eall all + mihtig mighty
Date: before 12th century
1 : often capitalized : having absolute power over all <Almighty God>

So, what you are trying to say is that IF God can create a rock, and made one that was too "heavy" for Him to lift he is not omnipotent, because he can't lift it. Right?

.... and if God can't make such a rock, He is not omnipotent because He can not do that particular task. Right?

OK, here is where I see this question being no more than a silly word con.......

God can create. God created all the heaven and earth.... all matter.... EVERYTHING.

God is the first and the last.... God is the "yardstick" by which all rules of the universe must bend to.
God creates the rock.....to imply that the fact He can not create one that He can't lift does NOT take away from his omnipotence.

IT ONLY PROVES IT. There is nothing he does not have power over.

To use a silly word con like does not prove anything.... God was the Creator. God set the rules.

By our definition, God is ALMIGHTY, the one true God and can not die....... does the fact that there is something He can not do (for instance die), however RIDICULOUS prove anything? NO! Not in my opinion.

What I think is that you are using faulty reasoning to your definition of God, which I totally understand, you being a non-believer.

I know you won't understand this, but I figure I would give it a try.

Your pal,
Scott

Mr. Sprinkles,

Finally.

I thought it would be pah, but you finally caught me. Can't blame me for having a little fun, can you? Yes, I know my Aristotle, but it seems that some people don't..... I was wondering how long it would take for you logic fans to see through my ruse... he he he.

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LOL, a clever ruse indeed. And that's "Spinkles" by the way.

Anyway, good answer, SOGFPP! I think I understand what you are saying.

Basically, you are saying that God has power over everything....therefore, the fact that a rock being too heavy for Him to lift is impossible only confirms that God has power over everything. However, with all of this discussion of heavy rocks, you have overlooked the very thing we just finished arguing over: logic.

If God has power over everything, including logic, He should have the power to create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift, and also have the power to lift rocks that are too heavy for Him to lift (as inconceivable as that may be to us).

By saying God cannot create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift, you are saying God cannot do 'anything'--He can only do things within the contraints of logic. Now the question becomes, is there an even higher god who set up the rules of logic for this lower god to obey, or are the rules of logic themselves simply too powerful for god?

Perhaps your best bet is to say that God can create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift, but He never will, because He wouldn't want to give up His own power. After all, even we humans have the power to create things more powerful than ourselves...

Spinkles...... beg your pardon.....

By saying God cannot create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift, you are saying God cannot do 'anything'--He can only do things within the contraints of logic.

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Nope...... I am saying that God can only do things within the constraints of matter.... matter that HE created.

Logic is a HUMAN abstract principle..... logic is not a scientific absolute..... God is not bound by yours or my understanding of what is and what should be or what can be.... etc...

Just because you can't understand God, does not mean that God does not exist....... yes, the reverse is true, I know I know I know..... it always ends with a statment like this.....

Faith or lack thereof is a JUDGEMENT. A human decision based on available information. Period. I hope everyone out there understands that and does not think that eventually either side of this debate will actually PROVE something...... but it sure is fun to talk about!

Mr. Spinkles, you surely are a master debator (In my best Austin Powers voice" Ahhhhh thank you").

Scott

Nope...... I am saying that God can only do things within the constraints of matter.... matter that HE created.

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Hmmm...so you don't think he can do things outside of the constraints of matter? It's all fine and well that he created that matter, but what you seem to be saying is that once created, he cannot manipulate or change it to fit what he wants.

Faith or lack thereof is a JUDGEMENT. A human decision based on available information. Period. I hope everyone out there understands that and does not think that eventually either side of this debate will actually PROVE something...... but it sure is fun to talk about!

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LOL, amen to that! If we ever actually prove something, I think I'd be struck too dumb to type!

Hmmm...so you don't think he can do things outside of the constraints of matter? It's all fine and well that he created that matter, but what you seem to be saying is that once created, he cannot manipulate or change it to fit what he wants.

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Not meant or implied.... this thread has to do with creating a rock..... which is matter, a physical object.

God can do anything with His creations.... matter or otherwise...... within the constraints of the rules HE set..... God can change the rules, but that's not what this thread is about.

Scott

Aha, but I would have to disagree with you there. In fact, I would have to say that the answer to this question has to do completely with how well god is able to manipulate the rules he created. (and yes, I do believe that this question has an 'answer'!...at least more of one than we've come to, lol)

But if God can manipulate rules then that means that a murderer could be good and a philanthropist could be bad because God can manipulate rules. It could be possible that He has changed his will since the coming of Jesus Christ or any other prophet and now wants to condemn every altruistic, benevolent or rational person to eternal hell. Since God is not bound by logic, He does not need logic or reason to change what he wants. He can do so anytime without any reason whatsoever. Since God is not subject to rules, he can or might have become malevolent from benevolent and now wants the murderers or dictators to succeed. It might sound a bit stupid what I said but that is what I believe is the conclusion if one says that God is not bound by anything, not even logic.

It might sound a bit stupid what I said but that is what I believe is the conclusion if one says that God is not bound by anything, not even logic.

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God is perfect, it is a limitation He has set upon Himself, in His perfectness He cannot lie otherwise He would be imperfect.

God is omnipotent. He can change anything even the definition of being perfect. He can make himself perfect even without logic if He is omnipotent.

Do you really think he would bother with changing definitions to justify himself in our eyes? Not that I think he does very much anymore but still. And I think perhaps he could create a rock he couldn't lift, it would be putting a limitation on his power, like he did with giving us free will and making himself unable to do evil. Although if he can flick the earth into its orbit with ease, a rock of this size would pose some problems to the universe wouldn't it?

SOGFPP said:

Nope...... I am saying that God can only do things within the constraints of matter.... matter that HE created.

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So you're saying God used to be omnipotent, but then He created matter, and now He can only do things within the constraints of matter...so He is no longer omnipotent?

Logic is a HUMAN abstract principle..... logic is not a scientific absolute..... God is not bound by yours or my understanding of what is and what should be or what can be.... etc...

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In that case, I am fully justified in saying that God enjoys wearing socks on His hands and shouting "Long Live The Simpsons" as he runs naked on floating soccer fields. After all, "God is not bound by yours or my understanding of what is and what should be or what can be" and "Just because you can't understand God, does not mean that God does not exist".... :bonk:

Faith or lack thereof is a JUDGEMENT. A human decision based on available information. Period.

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I'm not sure I agree, but we'll save that for another thread.

I hope everyone out there understands that and does not think that eventually either side of this debate will actually PROVE something...... but it sure is fun to talk about!

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I agree with you that it is fun to talk about....

But I think we have proven something here: it is illogical for anything to be literally 'all powerful' because in order to be 'all powerful' you have to have the ability to create/defy/change logic in any way you want, which is illogical (d'uh ). That is a fact. In light of this, we must either:

a) Concede that God is not literally 'all powerful' but He is still 'very very very powerful' (this shouldn't be too hard for Christians, since the Bible does say God cannot lie, sin, encroach on our free will, and so forth)

--or---

b) Claim that God does have the power to create/defy/change logic. I recommend adding *but He won't!* at the end, fellas, although it is impossible to defend this claim since we've just thrown logic out the door. Now if you'll excuse me gentlemen, I have to go chase those dastardly alien hippos who stole my clown shoes. *runs off screaming and jumping*

Mr. Spinkles, you surely are a master debator (In my best Austin Powers voice" Ahhhhh thank you").

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LOL, that's a good impression Scott!

God does not lift things. Lifting is imposing your will upon something that does not obey your will. God commands things to rise and they obey. The question is can He create something that does not obey Him, and the answer (as many people on this forum have proven) is yes.

On the other hand, there are many things that God cannot do. He cannot sin, for instance. Argue that omnipotence is the ability to do everything all you want, but you won't get anywhere.

On the other, other hand, this argument is a logical fallacy. It's a contradictory premise, and has no business being taken seriously. It's not valid.

dan said:

God does not lift things. Lifting is imposing your will upon something that does not obey your will. God commands things to rise and they obey. The question is can He create something that does not obey Him, and the answer (as many people on this forum have proven) is yes.

On the other hand, there are many things that God cannot do. He cannot sin, for instance. Argue that omnipotence is the ability to do everything all you want, but you won't get anywhere.

On the other, other hand, this argument is a logical fallacy. It's a contradictory premise, and has no business being taken seriously. It's not valid.

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Very well put, dan. I didn't see it that way. We have argued and argued and argued but forgotten one vital key.........rocks are god's creation. he has complete control of all of creation.

Luke 19: 37-40

And when he was come on nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of olives, the whole multitude of the desciples began to rejoice and praise GOD with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen. (38) Saying, Blessed be the king that cometh in the name of the Lord; peace in heaven and glory in the highest. (39)And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master rebuke thy desciples. (40) And he answered, "I tell you that if these should hold their peace, THE STONES WOULD IMMEADIATLEY CRY OUT."

All of creation worships God, he does not lift the rock, he tells it to rise, and it rises.