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Republican stance on abortion & gay marriage violates their party doctrine & unsustainable

Neo-Logic

Reality Checker
It seems to me the points the Republicans are making about abortion and gay marriage are a departure from their general guiding doctrine and principle ideology of small government--that the government that governs least is one that governs best. Some may suggest this is only meant for economic policies, but we also see this small government doctrine permeating through nearly every social/cultural policies of the Republican agenda from gun control, religious affairs, parental rights and education--all except in abortion and gay marriage.

When it comes to abortion, and with the recent issues of contraception in particular--such as the proposed laws requiring women seeking abortion to receive trans-vaginal ultrasounds--it's peculiar that the party that thinks small government is one that governs best all of a sudden wants government to start forcing medical procedures on women or force them to be not-so-easy-bake-ovens to carry fetuses to full term. And yes--I can see how the belief that life starts at conception can change the scales, but even this belief requires government to become larger and more intrusive and costly, especially in the future.

The current Roe v. Wade and SCOTUS rulings on abortion give mothers the right of choice based on the central condition of viability--the point at which a fetus's chance of survival outside the womb is very likely. This is a problem for 'small government' believers because viability is a moving target. As technology improves in prenatal and neonatal care, fetuses will be able to survive outside the mother's womb earlier and earlier, soon at the point that the fetus could practically be grown in a lab, perhaps at the expense of tax payers, the abortion stance becomes both Un-Republican in doctrine and unsustainable in logic.

When it comes to gay marriage, it's also peculiar that the party for small government wants marriages to be regulated and that for a party that screams slippery slope when it comes to gun control, that they don't see the slippery slope of government being able to control the legal recognition of your soul mate. To me, they can't have it both ways--they either believe marriage is religious or familial, in which case government should stay out of marriage all together, or they concede that it is a governmental affair, in which case they cannot discriminate whom they give equal treatment to. They can't both call marriage religious and as a result, force government to discriminate on that basis.

In both cases, it seems, the Republican party's ideas are calling for expansion of government in weird ways that violates their own party's central doctrine and inconsistent with their other beliefs about religious freedom and family privacy.
 
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Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I've always thought the same thing!

Republicans are always warning us of the Big Bad Government coming to take away our freedoms, and yet, what freedom can be more personally relevant to us than when and if we have children and who we decide to marry?

Do they understand how hypocritical that is?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
They're not the party of small gov't....just smaller government than Democrats want....generally.
They tend to be more socially authoritarian, but not always.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
‎"Other than telling us how to live, think, marry, pray,
vote, invest, educate our children and, now, die,
I think the Republicans have done a fine job
of getting government out of our personal lives."
- Sunday Portland Oregonian
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I've always thought the same thing!
Republicans are always warning us of the Big Bad Government coming to take away our freedoms, and yet, what freedom can be more personally relevant to us than when and if we have children and who we decide to marry?
Do they understand how hypocritical that is?
No comment on you, but I just heard an interview with some brain science guy.
He observes:
When someone on my team is inconsistent, it's enlightened flexibility & pragmatism.
When someone on the other team is inconsistent, it's hypocrisy or flip flopping.

Perspective is everything.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
No comment on you, but I just heard an interview with some brain science guy.
He observes:
When someone on my team is inconsistent, it's enlightened flexibility & pragmatism.
When someone on the other team is inconsistent, it's hypocrisy or flip flopping.

Perspective is everything.

I agree that we tend to excuse (or even praise) our own team and vilify the other, and often for the same things. (Railing against the "obstructionists" of one political party because they are standing their ground, but then praising their party for being principled when they do the same thing.)

But, in this case, the hypocrisy does seem there to slap you in your face. I have watched a lot of the primary debates, and I'm just left in awe how they smoothly transition from condemning gay marriage to condemning Dems for restricting some personal freedom (like gun ownership).
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I agree that we tend to excuse (or even praise) our own team and vilify the other, and often for the same things. (Railing against the "obstructionists" of one political party because they are standing their ground, but then praising their party for being principled when they do the same thing.)

But, in this case, the hypocrisy does seem there to slap you in your face. I have watched a lot of the primary debates, and I'm just left in awe how they smoothly transition from condemning gay marriage to condemning Dems for restricting some personal freedom (like gun ownership).
Hypocrisy is an inherent human condition.
(Except for yooz & meez....we be above that.)
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
In both cases, it seems, the Republican party's ideas are calling for expansion of government in weird ways that violates their own party's central doctrine and inconsistent with their other beliefs about religious freedom and family privacy.

I agree as well.

The republican party has become the party of hypocritical, bomb-slinging Christians (if we can call them Christians :rolleyes:). Ron Paul is the only real conservative who gets booed at when the Golden Rule of foreign policy is explained.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I agree that we tend to excuse (or even praise) our own team and vilify the other, and often for the same things. (Railing against the "obstructionists" of one political party because they are standing their ground, but then praising their party for being principled when they do the same thing.)

But, in this case, the hypocrisy does seem there to slap you in your face. I have watched a lot of the primary debates, and I'm just left in awe how they smoothly transition from condemning gay marriage to condemning Dems for restricting some personal freedom (like gun ownership).
I think that to a certain extent, they do this with their approach (doublethink?): it's okay to ban same-sex marriage because marriage isn't a "right". It's okay to ban abortion because it's really "protecting the rights of the unborn".

OTOH, what I have real problems with is their pro-war stance. If they see taxes as impositions on liberty (and therefore bad), then I really can't see how they wouldn't consider an expensive war to be a bad thing.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
It seems to me the points the Republicans are making about abortion and gay marriage are a departure from their general guiding doctrine and principle ideology of small government--that the government that governs least is one that governs best.

gawd isn't the gov't....
:no:

gawd is in your bedroom
and in your pocket book
and gawda is in the schools
and in our courtrooms too
 

Neo-Logic

Reality Checker
They're not the party of small gov't....just smaller government than Democrats want....generally.
They tend to be more socially authoritarian, but not always.

I don't disagree with this assessment in general.

However, in the case of abortion and gay-marriage, Republicans seem to be expanding the government's role in both spheres both objectively and relative to the Democrats. Pro-choice is a negative right whereas a pro-life is a positive right. Gay marriage needs recognition only because government's role has been expanded to govern it with DOMA.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Gay marriage needs recognition only because government's role has been expanded to govern it with DOMA.
I'm still not sure why the Full Faith and Credit clause wouldn't override DOMA and force states to recognize each others' same-sex marriages.
 

CaptainXeroid

Following Christ
Good points, and they sum up the reasons I don't consider myself a Republican anymore. Of course, just when I was thinking "hope and change" might sway me to the other side of the aisle, the Democratic handling of the health care legislation pushed me away from the donkeys.:thud: Now if the Libertarians had a real shot at gaining a foothold, I wouldn't have to hold my nose and vote GOP this year.


BTW...if the GOP doesn't shut up the aborto-centrists and those fearful of gays marrying, they will hand the independents and the election back to Obama.
 
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CaptainXeroid

Following Christ
I'm still not sure why the Full Faith and Credit clause wouldn't override DOMA and force states to recognize each others' same-sex marriages.
IIRC, a district court did make such a ruling, but the Obama administration instructed the Attorney General not to pursue an appeal, so the Supreme Court didn't have a chance to rule.
 

Neo-Logic

Reality Checker
IIRC, a district court did make such a ruling, but the Obama administration instructed the Attorney General not to pursue an appeal, so the Supreme Court didn't have a chance to rule.

I think there are a lot of constitutional maneuvering happening here. I don't think the full faith and credit is the way they're looking to have gay marriage recognized, perhaps because it lacks a strong precedent in SCOTUS compared to the 14th amendment. And I think the goal is larger--to have gay marriage recognized as a fundamental right in it of itself under the 14th, as opposed to having it come in lesser ways because there are lesser and easier ways to have something through based on precedent than what's 'right'.

For example, it surprises people that the entire civil rights movement was based on the commerce clause, not necessarily the 14th.
 
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