Did Jesus say he was God???

Muffled · Feb 25, 2012

idav said:
Yes and Jesus says call no man your father. I'm certain Jesus wasn't talking about biological fathers but rather spiritual fathers.

Jesus says something to make a point and relgioists think they have to make it into a law.

I have spiritual father's also but only one God who is Father, Son and Paraclete.

idav · Feb 25, 2012

Muffled said:
Jesus says something to make a point and relgioists think they have to make it into a law.

I have spiritual father's also but only one God who is Father, Son and Paraclete.

Jesus never said to call him father either.

Muffled · Mar 3, 2012

idav said:
Jesus never said to call him father either.

Of course not! Jesus although stating that He and the Father are one exalts the distinction. The problem with the incarnation is that people have a tendency to worship the body instead of God. That is why there are pictures of Jesus (which aren't really pictures of Him) and the shroud of Turin. Since the Father is a depiction of God without a body, there is no contamination and He is worthy of Worship.

waitasec · Mar 3, 2012

Muffled said:
The problem with the incarnation is that people have a tendency to worship the body instead of God.

and the reason jesus body had to be murdered was because...?
:shrug:

Shermana · Mar 3, 2012

Muffled said:
Of course not! Jesus although stating that He and the Father are one exalts the distinction. The problem with the incarnation is that people have a tendency to worship the body instead of God. That is why there are pictures of Jesus (which aren't really pictures of Him) and the shroud of Turin. Since the Father is a depiction of God without a body, there is no contamination and He is worthy of Worship.

And he said "Let them be one AS we are one". You have yet to understand this "as" concept.

URAVIP2ME · Mar 4, 2012

waitasec said:
and the reason jesus body had to be murdered was because...?

In the case study involving Job, he was not killed but remained faithful under trial.
Jesus not only remained faithful under trial, but faced trial to the point of death.
Rev. [2v10] mentions one receiving the crown of life when faithful until death.
Jesus shed blood also had the redeeming quality of cleansing us from sin.
-1st John 1v7.

Besides Jesus proving faithful under horrific conditions, according to 1st Cor. 15v50 'flesh and blood' [physical] can Not inherit the kingdom of God.
In other words, Jesus could not take his earthly body to the heavenly realm.
-Hebrews 9v24

bigbadgirl · Mar 4, 2012

Is it not strange that all those who claim to be God, die?

waitasec · Mar 4, 2012

bigbadgirl said:
Is it not strange that all those who claim to be God, die?

hmmm...
:ignore:

nah....

waitasec · Mar 4, 2012

URAVIP2ME said:
In the case study involving Job, he was not killed but remained faithful under trial.
Jesus not only remained faithful under trial, but faced trial to the point of death.
Rev. [2v10] mentions one receiving the crown of life when faithful until death.
Jesus shed blood also had the redeeming quality of cleansing us from sin.
-1st John 1v7.

Besides Jesus proving faithful under horrific conditions, according to 1st Cor. 15v50 'flesh and blood' [physical] can Not inherit the kingdom of God.
In other words, Jesus could not take his earthly body to the heavenly realm.
-Hebrews 9v24

and the reason jesus body had to be murdered was because...???

LioneDea · Mar 5, 2012

Muffled said:
I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming evidence.

Words of Jesus

John 14:9 ... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father
John 14:10 ... the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works
John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me
John 10:30 I and My Father are one
John 10:33 ... thou being a man makest Thyself God
John 8:58 Jesus said ... before Abraham was born, Jah (Jah is the short form of Jeshovah)
John 8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at Him
Mark 2:5 and Jesus seeing their faith saith ... thy sins are forgiven
Mark 2:7 ... who can forgive sins but one, even God
Mark 10:17 ... good teacher Mark 10:18 Why callest Me good? None is good save one, even God John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
Mat. 1:21 ... call his name Jesus; for it is He that shall save his people from their sins
Prophecies of the Messiah Jesus
Isa. 45:21 ... I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me a just God and savior, there is none besides Me
Isa. 7:14 ... a sign: behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 9:6 a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called: Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Attributes of God
Omnipresence
John 1:46 Nathaniel saith unto Him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
John 1:49 Nathaniel answered him, Rabbi thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel.
John 1:50 Jesus answered ... thou shalt see greater things than these
Omniscience
Luke 6:8 ...the Pharisees watched Him ... that they might find how to accuse him but He knew their thoughts
John 4:17 ... Thou sayest well, I have no husband
John 4:18 for thou hast had five husbands and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband
Omnipotence
Mark 4:41 ... Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?

(He turned water into wine, multiplied bread, healed the sick and the blind, raised a man who was dead for four days)
Authority
Luke 4:36 ... for with authority and power He commandeth the unclean spirits and they come out
Mat 7:29 for He taught them as one having authority
Mat 28:18 ... Jesus ...spake... saying, all authority hath been given unto Me in heaven and on earth
The "I am" statements of Jesus
John 8:12 ... I am the light of the world
John 14:6 ... I am the way, the truth and the life
John 6:35 ... I am the bread of life
John 10:9 I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
John 11:25 ... I am the resurrection and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine (this is a reference to Jesus being the Paraclete)

Lione D' ea: The verse you are looking for solid evidence was in John 8:58 Read:

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Lione D' ea: The word I am is expressing to God, that is why Jews understand what He meant because the word I am was a God who spoke to Moses even in late prophets like Abraham etc., in Exodus 3:14 it say's:

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

Lione D' ea: That is why Jews seek to kill Christ is because they never believe the truth what he say's, that's why they said to Him in John 10:33 Read:

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

Lione D' ea: There are verses to prove Jesus Christ is God according in scriptures, that is my answer, I hope you understand...

(end.)

Shermana · Mar 5, 2012

Lione D' ea: The verse you are looking for solid evidence was in John 8:58 Read:

We have debunked this like 10 times in a row. First off, the name itself is not really "I am", it is "I shall be". If you can find a single use of the word Eyheh meaning "I am" other than in Exodus 3:14, show it. Otherwise, it is clearly "I shall be".

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Moffatt and Goodspeed and others say it should be read as "Before Abraham was, I was".

http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=760

he Bible-An American Translation, E. Goodspeed – Jesus said to them, “I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born!” The New Testament in the Lanugage of the People – Then Jesus said to them, “I most solemnly say to you, I existed before Abraham was born.”
Translated from the Greek by CHARLES B. WILLIAMS
Pe****ta, Lamsa Translation – Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was born, I was.
Murdock’s Syriac New Testament Translation – Jesus said to them: Verily, verily I say to you, That before Abraham existed, I was.
The following were given to us by others; we have not yet verified the wording. In some cases, we have added some links.
The New Testament Or Rather The New Covenant-S.Sharpe: “I was before Abraham”.
The New Testament in the Language of the Day – W. G. Beck: “I was before Abraham”
The Simple English Bible: “I was alive before Abraham was born”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_English_Bible
The New Testament in the Language of the People – C. B. Williams: “I existed before Abraham was born”
http://biblestore.reslight.net/?p=1186
The Unvarnished New Testament – A. Gaus: “I have already been”
The Authentic New Testament – H. J. Schonfield: “I existed”
The Complete Gospels – R. J. Miller (Editor): “I existed”
New American Standard Bible 1963-1970 editions: “I have been” – alternative rendering
We are not sure which translations were produced by trinitarian believers, but probably most of the above were translated by trinitarians. If any know of more translations, please let us know in the comments form below.

Also, Jesus is not saying "My name is I am". The grammatical context apparently makes no concern to Trinitarians. And the funny thing is, Goodspeed and Moffat were Trinitarians, and they felt that this "I AM" canard was actually Modalism.

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Jn8_58.html

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/john-8-58b

Now when the Blind man said "I AM", does that mean the Blind man was claiming to be G-d? Or does grammar have special rules when Jesus says it in the exact same context as the Blind man, identifying himself in a certain way (as opposed to stating a name).

Lione D' ea: The word I am is expressing to God, that is why Jews understand what He meant because the word I am was a God who spoke to Moses even in late prophets like Abraham etc., in Exodus 3:14 it say's:

Like I said, the name itself is actually "I shall be", feel free to browse back and see the many times this has been discussed.

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

Theodotion and Aguila's Septuagints (long before the Sinaiticus) render the name as "I shall be". It is also used as "Will be" or "have been" but never as "I am" every other time the word has been used.

Lione D' ea: That is why Jews seek to kill Christ is because they never believe the truth what he say's, that's why they said to Him in John 10:33 Read:

There are many reasons why the Jews would stone someone for blasphemy, not all of them are about claiming to be G-d himself to begin with.

C. The Trinitarian Blasphemy Claim
Trinitarian apologists have an unwarranted interpretation of John 8:58. They claim that these Jews understood Jesus was claiming to be YAHWEH and that is why they wanted to stone him. They will further claim that these Jews would not have attempted to stone Jesus unless he was claiming to be God. However, we shall soon see this is quite ridiculous. They also stoned Stephen. Was Stephen claiming to be God too? The Jews completely understood through John's gospel that he was claiming to be God's Son, that is, YAHWEH's son and that is what really irritated them. This can be seen quite clearly at John 19:7 where the Jews finally charged him with claiming to be the Son of God. At John 5:18 we discover the Jews want to kill Jesus because he is claiming that God was his own Father. And if we look closer and read further we find at John 8:41 Jesus and the Jews having a bit of a showdown and these Jews themselves claimed God was their Father. The difference was that Jesus was claiming to be God's Son in the sense that he was a person conceived by a divine father and they were not and this is why they wanted to kill him. Jesus was affording himself a status higher than these Jewish rulers of Israel and this was a major cause for jealousy and anger. Indeed, Mark tells us plainly this is why they conspired to hand him over. And in the end they conspired to have him arrested and brought to trial for claiming to be the Son of God their Father. Anything which was perceived to be defiling God's name was considered blasphemy. One did not need to claim to be God to blaspheme his name.
To claim that these men would only stone Jesus if he was claiming to be God, not only ignores the motives that men of the same stock had when they stoned Stephen, it also assumes that these men were righteous Law abiding Jews and it also completely ignores what Jesus had just said about these men. He had called them children of the devil and as such indicated they were liars and murderers.
You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 8:44.
These were the men who conspired to murder the son of God. They didn't need a Law to want him dead. We are also told in the Scriptures that they killed an innocent man.

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

It is an anarthrous Theon and should be read as "Makest thyself a god", not "God" as if it had an article. Which it doesn't have.

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Jn10_33.html

1. A Conspicuous Translation Inconsistency
In the Greek text, the definite article is missing before the Greek word anthropos ("man") and the Greek word theos (God/god). Because of the missing article, Trinitarians are happy to translate the passage as "you being A man." But the same is true for the word theos yet they refuse to consistently translate the passage as "make yourself A god."
This passage most naturally reads, "you being a man make yourself a god." If an ancient Koine Greek speaker had wanted to say, "make yourself a god" this is precisely how he would say it.
Trinitarians render the words kai hoti su anthropos (no definite article) as "a man" but they will turn right around and say you can't translate "poieis seauton theon in the exact same manner as "a god! Why? Because it does not suit their agenda. There is no other reason.

Lione D' ea: There are verses to prove Jesus Christ is God according in scriptures, that is my answer, I hope you understand...

Not whatsoever. They prove that Trinitarians have no concern for grammar and rely on Trinitarian-biased interpretations.

Did you seriously think in all these 6000 pages that this concept has not been addressed already?

Dirty Penguin · Mar 5, 2012

LioneDea said:
Lione D' ea: The verse you are looking for solid evidence was in John 8:58 Read:

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Lione D' ea: The word I am is expressing to God, that is why Jews understand what He meant because the word I am was a God who spoke to Moses even in late prophets like Abraham etc., in Exodus 3:14 it say's:

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

This has already been dealt with. The "I am" statement in John 8:58 bears no resemblance to Exodus 3:14/15

The translation you have in your bible is completely wrong. Jews understand it to mean ("I shall be"). In fact everywhere in the bible where (eyeh asher eyeh) is used it is in the form of (shall be or will be). The ONLY difference is where biased translators rendered Exodus 3:14 to mean ('I am'). This shows a lack of translating consistency and bias.

The Greek (I am) in John has also been rendered as "I was" or "I exist". These are all consistent with how some trinitarian and non-trinitarian theologians/scholars rendered the bible before and after the KJV (Septuagaint). Additionally the coptic Christians render it as (I exist.)...."Before Abraham existed I exist"...

doppelganger · Mar 5, 2012

Dirty Penguin said:
The Greek (I am) in John has also been rendered as "I was" or "I exist". These are all consistent with how some trinitarian and non-trinitarian theologians/scholars rendered the bible before and after the KJV (Septuagaint). Additionally the coptic Christians render it as (I exist.)...."Before Abraham existed I exist"...

This reflects a problem of translating Ancient Hebrew into either Greek or English. AH has no verb tenses (past/present/future). It only used aspects (perfective/imperfectice). So you couldn't say "I am" in Ancient Hebrew. Meanwhile, modern English does not use perfective and imperfective aspect, so "I shall be" or "I am becoming" is about as close as you can get - and as a matter of careful grammatical analysis, even that's not quite the same thing as rendering imperfective aspect - just not as far off as "I am."

Dirty Penguin · Mar 5, 2012

doppelgänger;2833092 said:
This reflects a problem of translating Ancient Hebrew into either Greek or English. AH has no verb tenses (past/present/future). It only used aspects (perfective/imperfectice). So you couldn't say "I am" in Ancient Hebrew. Meanwhile, modern English does not use perfective and imperfective aspect, so "I shall be" or "I am becoming" is about as close as you can get - and as a matter of careful grammatical analysis, even that's not quite the same thing as rendering imperfective aspect - just not as far off as "I am."

You're correct but I think there's some subtle theological bias at play. It seems eyheh asher eyheh at 3:14 is the only place that I have come across that's being rendered as ("I am") other areas before and after that remain consistent with (I will be or I shall be). So why the use of (I am) in that spot.....And to me the context of John 8 doesn't giver me the impression the biblical Yeshua was using the (I am) as a name or reference to him being "God"....

LioneDea · Mar 6, 2012

Shermana< Lione D' ea: The verse you are looking for solid evidence was in John 8:58 Read:

We have debunked this like 10 times in a row. First off, the name itself is not really "I am", it is "I shall be". If you can find a single use of the word Eyheh meaning "I am" other than in Exodus 3:14, show it. Otherwise, it is clearly "I shall be".

Lione D' ea: Let us read John 8:56 King James Version:

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Lione D' ea: First let us defined what is I am in Bible Dictionary:

Strong’s Concordance:
eimi: I exist, I am
Original Word: εἰμί
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eimi
Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee')
Short Definition: I am, exist
Definition: I am, exist.

1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being (existence, i.e. without explicit limits).

NAS Exhaustive Concordance:

Word Origin
a prol. form of a prim. and defective verb
Definition
I exist, I am
NASB Word Usage
accompanied* (1), accompany* (2), am (138), amount (1), amounts (1), appear* (1), asserted* (1), become* (5), been (45), been* (1), being (26), belong (3), belonged* (1), belonging (1), belonging* (1), belongs (4), bring* (1), came (1), come (5), consist (1), crave* (1), depends* (1), do (1), done* (1), exist (3), existed (4), existed* (1), falls (1), found (1), had (8), happen (4), have (2), have come (1), lived (1), mean (1), mean* (2), means (7), meant (2), originate (1), owns (1), remain (3), remained (1), rest (1), sided (1), stayed (2), themselves (1), there (6), turn (1).

Lione D’ ea: There is no differences the meaning of I am in I existed, if the translation for example the Bible-An American Translation state I existed there is no problem about that because the word I existed is one of the definition of the I am, in 70 Bible translation that I use, the best translation which I use is King James Version…the correct translate was I am, if you read the Codex Sinaiticus this is what it translate:

Transcript:
κεν ϲε · ειπεν αυ
τοιϲ ο ιϲ αμην αμη
λεγω ϋμιν · πριν
αβρααμʼ γενεϲθαι

Translation:

Jesus said to them: Verily, verily, I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I am.

Lione D’ ea: If you are doubt the translation of the Bible that exist now, you can go back in old one, if you study the grammar you can in this cited you, can notify that Christ is not Man, the same in Exodus 3:14 He is the I am…the Spirit of the Son of God cannot be change, from past to future, and I’m not believer of trinity, because it is not Biblical, the term trinity is not in the Bible, I believe there 3 person which exist, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit…they are not equal…you can’t read in Bible the Holy Spirit is God but part of the Godhead, the Son is equal to the Father in being of Godhead not in being the Father and the power, that is Biblical…

(end.)

LioneDea · Mar 6, 2012

Shermana< There are many reasons why the Jews would stone someone for blasphemy, not all of them are about claiming to be G-d himself to begin with.

Lione D’ ea: The main reason why Jews seek to kill the Christ is because Jesus Christ state that He exist in eternal…this is Jews not to believe so they saith:

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

(end.)

Shermana · Mar 6, 2012

Lione D' ea: First let us defined what is I am in Bible Dictionary:

First off the definition of "I am" means nothing to begin with when Jesus isn't saying that his NAME is "I am" like how in Exodus 3:14 it is explicitly described as a name, not a responsive statement. To assume that "I am" is a declaration like the use of the name is...an example of Trinitarian disregard for grammar.

1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being (existence, i.e. without explicit limits).

NAS Exhaustive Concordance:

Word Origin
a prol. form of a prim. and defective verb
Definition
I exist, I am
NASB Word Usage
accompanied* (1), accompany* (2), am (138), amount (1), amounts (1), appear* (1), asserted* (1), become* (5), been (45), been* (1), being (26), belong (3), belonged* (1), belonging (1), belonging* (1), belongs (4), bring* (1), came (1), come (5), consist (1), crave* (1), depends* (1), do (1), done* (1), exist (3), existed (4), existed* (1), falls (1), found (1), had (8), happen (4), have (2), have come (1), lived (1), mean (1), mean* (2), means (7), meant (2), originate (1), owns (1), remain (3), remained (1), rest (1), sided (1), stayed (2), themselves (1), there (6), turn (1).

You see how it says "Been" 45 times?

Lione D’ ea: There is no differences the meaning of I am in I existed, if the translation for example the Bible-An American Translation state I existed there is no problem about that because the word I existed is one of the definition of the I am,

Click to expand...

Ummm, no, if it says "I existed" that changes the whole concept because it's about Jesus saying that he merely has existed since before Abraham, gramatically speaking, there is no way one can honestly prove that this is Jesus declaring to be the same being as the one who said his name was "I shall be". It's merely Jesus making a statement about how long he has existed for, as opposed to the very meaning of the Name (as well as stating that it's a name to begin with). Therefore, Jesus did not say that he was the same being as the one speaking in Ex 3:14. It's a Trinitarian (And actually Modalist in nature) fantasy.

And Goodspeed's American Translation is exactly what I was referring to, besides Moffat's. I EXISTED is not "I am". Therefore, Jesus is not declaring his name to be "I am", he is not even declaring his name, or declaring to be a title. This concept that saying "I am" is the same as saying "My name is I am" (even if it should be "I shall be") is an example of the sheer disregard Trinitarians (and Modalists, of which Trinitarians Goodspeed and Moffatt felt such a rendering actually implied)

in 70 Bible translation that I use, the best translation which I use is King James Version…

Click to expand...

You mean your FAVORITE translation. The KJV is not by any means the "Best" translation, though it definitely has its uses in a few spots.

the correct translate was I am, if you read the Codex Sinaiticus this is what it translate:

Click to expand...

No, the incorrect "translate" is "I am", the correct "translate", is "I have been." IN an unrelated subject do you see the irony of saying you like the KJV best while using the Sinaiticus btw?

Transcript:
κεν ϲε · ειπεν αυ
τοιϲ ο ιϲ αμην αμη
λεγω ϋμιν · πριν
αβρααμʼ γενεϲθαι

Translation:

Jesus said to them: Verily, verily, I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I am.

Click to expand...

That in no way proves that it shouldn't be translated as "I have been".

Lione D’ ea: If you are doubt the translation of the Bible that exist now, you can go back in old one,

Click to expand...

I'm in doubt of the old translations as well as the new ones, if anything the NWT and many of the smaller less mainstream "new ones" are far superior in many regards at least, though the KJV has its uses in certain spots, like the Douay Rheims.

if you study the grammar you can in this cited you,

Click to expand...

There is nothing you have actually shown which disproves the grammar we have studied.

can notify that Christ is not Man,

the same in Exodus 3:14 He is the I am…

Click to expand...

Once again, the name itself is "I shall be", this is how the Jewish Septuagints translated it until the Sinaiticus era, you can deny this all you want, but most Jews will tell you that the name is not "I am" per se and is more accurately along the lines of "I shall be".

There is no such thing as "The I am". This is an example of Trinitarian (and which is actually Modalist in this case) disregard for grammar. G-d says that his NAME is "I am". He never says that he IS the "I am". The "Grammar" that you are studying is in total disregard for basic concepts like this.

the Spirit of the Son of God cannot be change, from past to future, and I’m not believer of trinity,

Click to expand...

Oh, so you ARE a modalist, which I actually have more respect for (a little at least) because Modalism is actually what the Trinitarian perceptions of their proof texts come out to in the end. I wish more Trinitarians would wake up to the fact that their beliefs are actually Modalism and go join Oneness Pentacostalism where they belong. But I don't get what you mean that it cannot change from past to future.

because it is not Biblical, the term trinity is not in the Bible, I believe there 3 person which exist, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit…they are not equal…

Click to expand...

Wait, nevermind, you just said you weren't Trinitarian, then you use the "3 persons" argument. (Note: I NEVER get a straight answer from any Trinitarian when I ask what "person" means). You may deny that you are Trinitarian, but if you believe that they are 3 persons, you are not Modalist, you are some form of Trinitarian, sorry to break it to you.

you can’t read in Bible the Holy Spirit is God but part of the Godhead,

Click to expand...

There is no such thing as "part of the G-dhead", even if Strong's says that the word can mean such, it is doing so purely to placate its Trinitarian readership, the word itself means "godhood", it's a Qualitative noun, not a nominative. This is a very common misunderstanding when people say "The Godhead" as if its some kind of "fullness of the Trinity", it's not. It merely means "godhood" in the same kind of use as one would say "manhood" or "fatherhood", it's a quality, not a being.

the Son is equal to the Father in being of Godhead not in being the Father and the power, that is Biblical…

Click to expand...

And I'd ask you what exactly are they "Equal" about if not in power. Explain how exactly you think they are "equal", are they "Equal" in rank?

Shermana · Mar 6, 2012

Lione D’ ea: The main reason why Jews seek to kill the Christ is because Jesus Christ state that He exist in eternal…this is Jews not to believe so they saith:

"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

Did you totally ignore what I posted about how it should be translated as "makest thyself a god"? It's an anarthrous Theos. Just because your favorite translation uses "God" doesn't mean its correct. If there was an article before it, then you'd have a point. But they are accusing Jesus of making himself to be a god. If you don't agree that's fine, but the grammar clearly says "a god", just like it says "a man". If you disagree, see Acts 12:22. The same applies to John 1:1c. "A god". Even Trinitarians like Goodspeed and Moffatt like to use "Divine" in this case to avoid what they perceive as a Modalist implication.

The Trinity Delusion: John 10:33

[SIZE=+1]Examination of the Claim[/SIZE]
1. A Conspicuous Translation Inconsistency
In the Greek text, the definite article is missing before the Greek word anthropos ("man") and the Greek word theos (God/god). Because of the missing article, Trinitarians are happy to translate the passage as "you being A man." But the same is true for the word theos yet they refuse to consistently translate the passage as "make yourself A god."
This passage most naturally reads, "you being a man make yourself a god." If an ancient Koine Greek speaker had wanted to say, "make yourself a god" this is precisely how he would say it.
Trinitarians render the words kai hoti su anthropos (no definite article) as "a man" but they will turn right around and say you can't translate "poieis seauton theon in the exact same manner as "a god! Why? Because it does not suit their agenda. There is no other reason.

Don't bother trying to ignore this grammatical issue.

Dirty Penguin · Mar 6, 2012

Shermana said:
Did you totally ignore what I posted about how it should be translated as "makest thyself a god"? It's an anarthrous Theos. Just because your favorite translation uses "God" doesn't mean its correct. If there was an article before it, then you'd have a point. But they are accusing Jesus of making himself to be a god.

Correct. It's also understood this way by the responses Yeshua gives at verses 34-36.

John 10:34-36
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken. Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

If verse 33 simply said ('make yourself to be God') then the response at 34-36 makes no sense.

So it would appear they sought to kill him at this point not because he was making himself to be "God" rather he was the (son of God). Sense he claim to be the (son of God) and was referring to "God" as his "Father" then they took this as blasphemy. It's no different that how Muslims see it. "God" (Allah) has no physical sons. It is blasphemy to suggest such. Christians constantly misinterpret the actions of the Jews by saying that because they sought to kill him means he claimed to be "God" and from the actual exchange at 34-38.

LioneDea · Mar 6, 2012

Shermana< First off the definition of "I am" means nothing to begin with when Jesus isn't saying that his NAME is "I am" like how in Exodus 3:14 it is explicitly described as a name, not a responsive statement. To assume that "I am" is a declaration like the use of the name is...an example of Trinitarian disregard for grammar.

Once again, the name itself is "I shall be", this is how the Jewish Septuagints translated it until the Sinaiticus era, you can deny this all you want, but most Jews will tell you that the name is not "I am" per se and is more accurately along the lines of "I shall be".

Lione D ea: Falsethats why Jews understand what he meant is because the word I am is denoting in God in was, why Christ didnt say this is my name nor etc., what the Lord God said in was about that case, let us read Exodus 314-15 Read?

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. (King James Version)

Lione D ea: Why Christ didnt necessary say my name nor etc. is because according in exodus 3:15 it is his name for ever, and memorial unto all generations thats why Jews understand what he to expresswherefore they anger into him thats why they said:

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (John 10:33 King James Version)

Lione D ea: you said: Did you totally ignore what I posted about how it should be translated as "makest thyself a god"? It's an anarthrous Theos. Just because your favorite translation uses "God" doesn't mean its correct. If there was an article before it, then you'd have a point. But they are accusing Jesus of making himself to be a god. Let us find out, first I must read the transcript:

ζετε · απεκριθη
ϲαν αυτω οι ϊου
δαιοι · περι καλου
εργου ου λιθαζο
μεν ϲε · αλλα πε
ρι βλαϲφημιαϲ · ο
τι ϲυ ανθρωποϲ
ων · ποιειϲ ϲεαυ
τον θν

Translation:
The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, and because thou, being man, makest thyself God.

Lione D ea: First in Greek: (ανθρωπο&#1010

is equivalent term in English: as (a man) correct, if you read meticolously the verse, you notice the little comma before the makest thyself God it is not anarthrous Theos like you said because there is little comma before the makest, you have to considered that in scriptures because Jesus Christ said in Matthew 5:18 Read:

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (King James Version)

Lione D ea: You have to considered that law, therefore my investigation is correct more than in you, I never base in one translation I use lots of translation to see what the verse express to the reader, you have to step aside your own opinion, let the scriptures opinion dominate in our mind not us...Christ didnt not necessary to say my name is, nor etc. because there is memorial what the exodus tells us, thats why Jews are angry to him, regarding in Exodus about I shall be If there a book was translate it, I will never remove that text, after all we can sence if that translation...

Shermana< NASB Word Usage accompanied* (1), accompany* (2), am (138), amount (1), amounts (1), appear* (1), asserted* (1), become* (5), been (45), been* (1), being (26), belong (3), belonged* (1), belonging (1), belonging* (1), belongs (4), bring* (1), came (1), come (5), consist (1), crave* (1), depends* (1), do (1), done* (1), exist (3), existed (4), existed* (1), falls (1), found (1), had (8), happen (4), have (2), have come (1), lived (1), mean (1), mean* (2), means (7), meant (2), originate (1), owns (1), remain (3), remained (1), rest (1), sided (1), stayed (2), themselves (1), there (6), turn (1).

You see how it says "Been" 45 times?

Lione D ea: It is not prohibited in Bible if it takes billions times why, Eclessiastes 3:15 Read:

That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past. (King James Version)

Lione D ea: Why requireth that which is past, because God want to reiterate to clarify what is blard a someone like you, that's why I state it is not only one meaning of I am is because one meaning have a thousand law you have to counted Hosea 8:12 Read:

I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing. (King James Version)

Lione D ea: Wherefore even it states existed in your vesion, there is no problem for me, after all it is past tence so we can say He is not just a Man, why I believe he is not just a Man, because when everything was not yet created He was exist there, Proverbs 8:22-30 Read:

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Lione D ea: Who is this Person in verse 12 it says?

I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. (King James Version)

Lione D ea: Who is this Wisdom, I Corinthians 2:6-8 Read:

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (King James Version)

Lione D ea: The Person who crucified in cross by Jews is the Christ, to testify in I Corinthians 1:24 Read:

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. (King James Version)

Lione D ea: Jesus Christ is the power and wisdom of God, that is why Christ said in (John 8:58) I am is because He was existed before Abraham was, therefore He is God, why I believe He is God, because He is the Son of God, He was with the Father long time ago, the Bible dictionary NASB Word Usage accompanied is correct He came in God, Thats why I believe He is I am he translation is correct, I AM hath sent me unto you meaning name of God, if you read in verse 15 it reads

And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this ismy memorial unto all generations.

Lione D ea: if you notify the word THIS it denoting in I am, which is He was existed in from Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacobthat is why the word I am is God, Christ itself state He is God, another proof Jesus is I am in John 18:4-6 Read:

Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Lione D ea: That is my bases..

Shermana< No, the incorrect "translate" is "I am", the correct "translate", is "I have been." IN an unrelated subject do you see the irony of saying you like the KJV best while using the Sinaiticus btw?

Lione D ea: There is no problem with that because it is the best way to go back in original to see if our Bible we hold still contained the word of God, when I investigate with the help of my preacher there are some added verses, and some the phrase have errors that is realitybut I never lose of hope because there are manual script that exist that I can go back

(end.)

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