Do 'False Christs' know they are false?

Student of X · Feb 28, 2012

CynthiaCypher said:
Oh yes. He was very competitive with other religious leaders of the time.

You feel that it was envy that led Jesus to rebuke other religious leaders? What if he was offended by their hypocrisy? I know I have been offended by hypocrites in positions of power. That doesn't have to mean that I am envious of them or want their power for myself for the sake of power.

CynthiaCypher · Feb 28, 2012

Student of X said:
You feel that it was envy that led Jesus to rebuke other religious leaders? What if he was offended by their hypocrisy? I know I have been offended by hypocrites in positions of power. That doesn't have to mean that I am envious of them or want their power for myself for the sake of power.

He often accused of doing things that he did himself. He accused the leaders of robbing widows when he was taking money from mentally ill women. Now who was being hypocritical?

Student of X · Feb 28, 2012

CynthiaCypher said:
He often accused of doing things that he did himself. He accused the leaders of robbing widows when he was taking money from mentally ill women. Now who was being hypocritical?

When did he do that?

CynthiaCypher · Feb 28, 2012

Student of X said:
When did he do that?

Mark 12:40

40 They devour widows houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.

Luke 8

1 After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2 and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; 3 Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herods household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.

Student of X · Feb 28, 2012

CynthiaCypher said:
Mark 12:40

40 They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.”

Luke 8

1 After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2 and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; 3 Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.

I see, thanks.

Suppose the hypocrites made a show of exorcism but couldn't deliver. But they took payment anyway.

Whereas Jesus had all the powers of a shaman, so he could perform genuine exorcisms.

gnomon · Feb 28, 2012

Student of X said:
Or are they tricked into it?

Do they believe they are literally Jesus?

Are they approached by demons are offered wealth if they go along with a ruse designed to trick Christians into thinking Jesus has returned?

Are you assuming that the concept of the Christ, or Messiah, originated with Jesus?

CynthiaCypher · Feb 28, 2012

Student of X said:
I see, thanks.

Suppose the hypocrites made a show of exorcism but couldn't deliver. But they took payment anyway.

Whereas Jesus had all the powers of a shaman, so he could perform genuine exorcisms.

It not about exorcism or who put on the best show. Both the teachers of the Law and Jesus took money from vulnerable people. Jesus could be hypocritical at times just like any other cult leader.

Student of X · Feb 28, 2012

CynthiaCypher said:
It not about exorcism or who put on the best show. Both the teachers of the Law and Jesus took money from vulnerable people. Jesus could be hypocritical at times just like any other cult leader.

I disagree. I think it IS about exorcism. It's about who performed a genuine service and who is a phony. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your claim is that Jesus didn't perform the service he was paid for.

What if he did?

Do you believe genuine exorcisms are possible? Or have shamans been faking it for tens of thousands of years?

CynthiaCypher · Feb 28, 2012

Student of X said:
I disagree. I think it IS about exorcism. It's about who performed a genuine service and who is a phony. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your claim is that Jesus didn't perform the service he was paid for.

What if he did?

Do you believe genuine exorcisms are possible? Or have shamans been faking it for tens of thousands of years?

I believe the only thing Jesus did was alleviate some psychosomatic symptoms that people had. There are no demons but the ones we create in our heads.

So it was all a show.

Student of X · Feb 28, 2012

CynthiaCypher said:
I believe the only thing Jesus did was alleviate some psychosomatic symptoms that people had. There are no demons but the ones we create in our heads.

In other words he cured their mental illness?

And then, as sane people, they chose to pay for the service?

But you said earlier that they were still mentally ill when they paid?

CynthiaCypher · Feb 28, 2012

Student of X said:
In other words he cured their mental illness?

And then, as sane people, they chose to pay for the service?

But you said earlier that they were still mentally ill when they paid?

I don't he cured them, just alleviated some symptoms, they remained ill.

Student of X · Feb 28, 2012

CynthiaCypher said:
I don't he cured them, just alleviated some symptoms, they remained ill.

What symptoms remained? A superstitious belief in demons?

CynthiaCypher · Feb 28, 2012

Student of X said:
What symptoms remained? A superstitious belief in demons?

Well after his death Mary hallucinated a risen Jesus, so I believe she remained mentally ill.

CynthiaCypher · Feb 28, 2012

The people Jesus cured probably suffered from conversion disorder

Student of X · Feb 28, 2012

CynthiaCypher said:
Well after his death Mary hallucinated a risen Jesus, so I believe she remained mentally ill.

OK I think I see where you're coming from, thanks.

One long-past innocent day, in my prefolly youth, I came upon a statement in an undistinguished textbook on psychiatry that, as when Kant read Hume, woke me forever from my garden-of-eden slumber. "The psychotic does not merely think he sees four blue bivalves with floppy wings wandering up the wall; he does see them. An hallucination is not, strictly speaking, manufactured in the brain; it is received by the brain, like any 'real' sense datum, and the patient act in response to this to-him-very-real perception of reality in as logical a way as we do to our sense data. In any way to suppose he only 'thinks he sees it' is to misunderstand totally the experience of psychosis."

"Drugs, Hallucinations, and the Quest for Reality" (1964)

CynthiaCypher · Feb 28, 2012

Student of X said:
OK I think I see where you're coming from, thanks.

One long-past innocent day, in my prefolly youth, I came upon a statement in an undistinguished textbook on psychiatry that, as when Kant read Hume, woke me forever from my garden-of-eden slumber. "The psychotic does not merely think he sees four blue bivalves with floppy wings wandering up the wall; he does see them. An hallucination is not, strictly speaking, manufactured in the brain; it is received by the brain, like any 'real' sense datum, and the patient act in response to this to-him-very-real perception of reality in as logical a way as we do to our sense data. In any way to suppose he only 'thinks he sees it' is to misunderstand totally the experience of psychosis."

"Drugs, Hallucinations, and the Quest for Reality" (1964)

And thats right. She didn't think she saw Jesus, she saw Jesus and her vision was real to her.

ChristineES · Feb 28, 2012

CynthiaCypher said:
Well after his death Mary hallucinated a risen Jesus, so I believe she remained mentally ill.

Unless you believe, as Christians do, that she actually saw the risen Christ. In that case, we wouldn't see her as mentally ill. It's all in the point of view of the story.

CynthiaCypher · Feb 28, 2012

ChristineES said:
Unless you believe, as Christians do, that she actually saw the risen Christ. In that case, we wouldn't see her as mentally ill. It's all in the point of view of the story.

Christine even if the reality is that Mary was mentally ill or distraught had a vision or hallucination and it was merely in her head, it doesn't take away any of the spiritual significance of the story.

ChristineES · Feb 28, 2012

CynthiaCypher said:
Christine even if the reality is that Mary was mentally ill or distraught had a vision or hallucination and it was merely in her head, it doesn't take away any of the spiritual significance of the story.

True enough. But there are still some of us who believe that Mary actually saw the risen Jesus just as there are people who don't believe she did and people who don't believe any of the Jesus story. That is all I was trying to say.

bigbadgirl · Feb 28, 2012

Unfortunatly all "Christs" have been false.

Do 'False Christs' know they are false?

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