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Does anyone really deserve to go to hell?

ankarali

Active Member
I used to be muslim, I can honestly say though, being a non-believer made me a much more peaceful person. I don't hate gays, I don't hate Jews, I don't hate Israelis, I don't hate Americans, I don't hate anyone. The fact that you would need the thought of Hell to keep you from doing bad things means you have a problem.

I am a muslim and I like all people, christians, jews, atheist etc. I don't have any problem with people or I don't try to tergiversate anyone.
Here we talk about the life after death and why the hell is created. Of course being an atheist we have good behaviours maybe better than a muslim or a christian I agree with you

but if you don't believe in God these behaviours will have no sense because it is him who gave you all these good behaviours and you deny him then you deserve the Hell.
 

Ignite

Member
I am a muslim and I like all people, christians, jews, atheist etc. I don't have any problem with people or I don't try to tergiversate anyone.
Here we talk about the life after death and why the hell is created. Of course being an atheist we have good behaviours maybe better than a muslim or a christian I agree with you

but if you don't believe in God these behaviours will have no sense because it is him who gave you all these good behaviours and you deny him then you deserve the Hell.

The God you describe doesn't seem to have any good qualities, hence is incapable of giving me any. I don't believe murderers or rapists deserve hell, not even Satan himself deserves hell.
 
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tarasan

Well-Known Member
before I give a response would you agree with this form of the problem of hell?
(1) An omniperfect God would not damn anyone to hell without having a morally sufficient reason (that is, a very good reason based on moral considerations) to do so.
(2) It is not possible for God to have a morally sufficient reason to damn anyone.
(3) Therefore, it is not possible for God to damn anyone to hell.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
I wanted to know why anyone would think hell is okay. All the previous commenter gave me was how many years someone would get for disbelieving.

you do know that. you were a muslim were you not? you believed in this stuff until very recently if i am not mistaken. and if what ever answer a 'creationist' gives you, you won't accept it and will go on to say that it is unfair and unjust to punish someone eternally. so as i said why ask a question which you don't want answered unless the answer conforms to your thinking and liking? at least be honest about it.
 

ankarali

Active Member
First Aspect: Is it at all possible that in any kingdom, and particularly so splendid a kingdom as this, there should be no reward for those who serve obediently and no punishment for those who rebel? Reward and punishment are virtually non-existent here; there must therefore be a Supreme Tribunal somewhere else.

o Second Aspect: Look at the organization and administration of this kingdom! See how everyone, including the poorest and the weakest, is provided with perfect and ornate sustenance. The best care is taken of the sick. Royal and delicious foods, dishes, jewel encrusted decorations, embroidered garments, splendid feasts - all are to be found here. See how everyone pays due attention to his duties, with the exception of empty-headed people such as yourself. No one transgresses his bounds by as much as an inch. The greatest of all men is engaged in modest and obedient service, with an attitude of fear and awe. The ruler of this kingdom must possess, then, great generosity and all-embracing compassion, as well as, at the same time, great dignity, exalted awesomeness and honour. Now generosity requires liberality; compassion cannot dispense with beneficence; and awesomeness and honour make it imperative that the discourteous be chastised. But not even a thousandth part of what that generosity and awesomeness require is to be seen in this realm. The oppressor retains his power, and the oppressed, his humiliation, as they both depart and migrate from this realm. Their affairs are, then, left to the same Supreme Tribunal of which we speak.
o Third Aspect: See with what lofty wisdom and ordering affairs are managed, and with what true justice and balance transactions are effected! Now a wise polity requires that those who seek refuge under the protecting wing of the state should receive favour, and justice demands that the rights of subjects be preserved, so that the splendour of the state should not suffer. But here in this land, not a thousandth part of the requirements of such wisdom and justice is fulfilled; for example, empty-headed people such as yourself usually leave this realm unpunished. So again we say, matters are postponed for the consideration of a Supreme Tribunal.
o Fourth Aspect: Look at these innumerable and peerless jewels that are displayed here, these unparalleled dishes laid out like a banquet! They demonstrate that the ruler of these lands is possessed of infinite generosity and an inexhaustible treasury. Now such generosity and such a treasury deserve and require a bounteous display that should be eternal and include all possible objects of desire. They further require that all who come as guests to partake of that display should be there eternally and not suffer the pain of death and separation. For just as the cessation of pain is pleasurable, so too is the cessation of pleasure painful! Look at these displays and the announcements concerning them! And listen to these heralds proclaiming the fine and delicate arts of a miracle-working monarch, and demonstrating his perfections! They are declaring his peerless and invisible beauty, and speaking of the subtle manifestations of his hidden beauteousness; he must be possessed, then, of a great and astounding invisible beauty and perfection. This flawless hidden perfection requires one who will appreciate and admire it, who will gaze on it exclaiming, Mashallah!, thus displaying it and making it known.
As for concealed and peerless beauty, it too requires to see and be seen, or rather to behold itself in two ways. The first consists of contemplating itself in different mirrors, and the second of contemplating itself by means of the contemplation of enraptured spectators and astounded admirers. Hidden beauty wishes, then, to see and be seen, to contemplate itself eternally and be contemplated without cease. It desires also permanent existence for those who gaze upon it in awe and rapture. For eternal beauty can never be content with a transient admirer; moreover, an admirer destined to perish without hope of return will find his love turning to enmity whenever he imagines his death, and his admiration and respect will yield to contempt. It is in man's nature to hate the unknown and the unaccustomed. Now everyone leaves the hospice of this realm very quickly and vanishes, having seen only a light or a shadow of the perfection and beauty for no more than a moment, without in any way being satiated. Hence, it is necessary that he should go towards an eternal realm where he will contemplate the Divine beauty and perfection.
o Fifth Aspect: See, it is evident from all these matters that that peerless Being is possessed of most great mercy. For he causes aid to be swiftly extended to every victim of misfortune, answers every question and petition; and mercifully fulfils even the lowliest need of his lowliest subject. If, for example, the foot of some herdsman's sheep should hurt, he either provides some medicine or sends a veterinarian.
Come now, let us go; there is a great meeting on that island. All the nobles of the land are assembled there. See, a most noble commander, bearing exalted decorations, is pronouncing a discourse, and requesting certain things from that compassionate monarch. All those present say: "Yes, we too desire the same," and affirm and assent to his words. Now listen to the words of that commander favoured by his monarch:
"O monarch that nurtures us with his bounty! Show us the source and origin of these examples and shadows you have shown us! Draw us nigh to your seat of rule; do not let us perish in these deserts! Take us into your presence and have mercy on us! Feed us there on the delicious bounty you have caused us to taste here! Do not torment us with desperation and banishment! Do not leave your yearning, thankful and obedient subjects to their own devices; do not cause them to be annihilated!" Do you not hear him thus supplicating? Is it at all possible that so merciful and powerful a monarch should totally fulfil the finest and highest aim of his most beloved and noble commander?
Moreover, the purpose of that commander is the purpose of all men, and its fulfilment is required by the pleasure, the compassion and the justice of the king, and it is a matter of ease for him, not difficulty, causing him less difficulty than the transient places of enjoyment contained in the hospice of the world. Having spent so much effort on these places of witnessing that will last only five or six days, and on the foundation of this kingdom, in order to demonstrate instances of his power, he will, without doubt, display at his seat of rule true treasures, perfections and skills in such a manner, and open before us such spectacles, that our intellects will be astonished.
Those sent to this field of trial will not, then, be left to their own devices; palaces of bliss or dungeons await them.
o Sixth Aspect: Come now, look! All these imposing railways, planes, machines, warehouses, exhibitions show that behind the veil an imposing monarch exists and governs.3
Such a monarch requires subjects worthy of himself. But now you see all his subjects gathered in a hospice for wayfarers, a hospice that is filled and emptied each day. It can also be said that his subjects are now gathered in a testing-ground for the sake of manoeuvers, and this ground also changes each hour. Again, we may say that all his subjects stay in an exhibition-hall for a few minutes to behold specimens of the monarch's beneficence, valuable products of his miraculous art. But the exhibition itself changes each moment. Now this situation and circumstance conclusively shows that beyond the hospice, the testing-ground, the exhibition, there are permanent palaces, lasting abodes, and gardens and treasuries full of the pure and elevated originals of the samples and shapes we see in this world. It is for the sake of these that we exert ourselves here. Here we labour, and there we receive our reward. A form and degree of felicity suited to everyone's capacity awaits us there.
o Seventh Aspect: Come, let us walk a little, and see what is to be found among these civilized people. See, in every place, at every corner, photographers are sitting and taking pictures. Look, everywhere there are scribes sitting and writing things down. Everything is being recorded. They are registering the least significant of deeds, the most commonplace of events. Now look up at the tall mountain; there you see a supreme photographer installed, devoted to the service of the king;4 he is taking pictures of all that happens in the area. The king must, then, have issued this order; "Record all the transactions made and deeds performed in the kingdom." In other words, that exalted personage is having all events registered and photographically recorded. The precise record he is keeping must without doubt be for the sake of one day calling his subjects to account.
Now is it at all possible that an All-Wise and All-Preserving Being, who does not neglect the most banal doings of the lowest of his subjects, should not record the most significant deeds of the greatest among his subjects, should not call them to account, should not reward and punish them? After all, it is those foremost among his subjects that perform deeds offensive to his glory, contrary to his pride and unacceptable to his compassion, and those deeds remain unpunished in this world. It must be, therefore, that their judgement is postponed to a Supreme Court.
 

Ignite

Member
you do know that. you were a muslim were you not? you believed in this stuff until very recently if i am not mistaken. and if what ever answer a 'creationist' gives you, you won't accept it and will go on to say that it is unfair and unjust to punish someone eternally. so as i said why ask a question which you don't want answered unless the answer conforms to your thinking and liking? at least be honest about it.

As a muslim, I thought everyone who was not a muslim deserves Hell. Looking back, I see this makes absolutely no sense at all. So I want an argument that would justify eternal suffering, something other than "because you don't believe", I want to understand how your moral compus continues to think this is right.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
I am a muslim and I like all people, christians, jews, atheist etc. I don't have any problem with people or I don't try to tergiversate anyone.
Here we talk about the life after death and why the hell is created. Of course being an atheist we have good behaviours maybe better than a muslim or a christian I agree with you

but if you don't believe in God these behaviours will have no sense because it is him who gave you all these good behaviours and you deny him then you deserve the Hell.

This is one of the fundamental problems with dogmatic religions. The idea that either a person cannot actually be moral without faith in their particular beliefs, or even if they do seem to present a type of morality, they have no idea why they do it, is simply absurd. I believe that the opposite is true. A person who is moral for no other reason than for fear of punishment is worse off than a person who is moral simply because it's the right thing to do.
 

Ignite

Member
you have no sympathy for rape victims and victims of murder. thats not good.

Sympathy? The problem is you only look at one side of the spectrum. No human would commit evil without reason. Would you rape? Of course not, then why would anyone else? Maybe the person is psychotic, maybe he was raped, there is no such thing as "he did it because he is evil".
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Are you saying that it's sympathetic for murderers and rapists to deserve hell?

to deserve a punishment.

in islamic teachings if someone commits a crime and they don't get caught or punished for it in this life then they will receive a punishment for it in the hear after, whether that means them going to hell eternally or partially so as to pay for the crime depends on all the other crimes/sins and good deeds that they did. about which i must say Allah knows best.

there are many cases where criminals have not been caught, on the Day of Judgement all will be made apparent.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Sympathy? The problem is you only look at one side of the spectrum. No human would commit evil without reason. Would you rape? Of course not, then why would anyone else? Maybe the person is psychotic, maybe he was raped, there is no such thing as "he did it because he is evil".

sorry but you seem to over use that thought of 'no one would commit an evil without reason'. tell me, what justifiable reason does a rapist have to rape someone. you seem to call believers and their beliefs evil, howevers i don't like the stuff i read coming from you
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
to deserve a punishment.

in islamic teachings if someone commits a crime and they don't get caught or punished for it in this life then they will receive a punishment for it in the hear after, whether that means them going to hell eternally or partially so as to pay for the crime depends on all the other crimes/sins and good deeds that they did. about which i must say Allah knows best.

there are many cases where criminals have not been caught, on the Day of Judgement all will be made apparent.

So you're saying hell isn't necessarily eternal in Islam?
 

Ignite

Member
to deserve a punishment.

in islamic teachings if someone commits a crime and they don't get caught or punished for it in this life then they will receive a punishment for it in the hear after, whether that means them going to hell eternally or partially so as to pay for the crime depends on all the other crimes/sins and good deeds that they did. about which i must say Allah knows best.

there are many cases where criminals have not been caught, on the Day of Judgement all will be made apparent.

Ah I understand, so your saying that if a criminal doesn't go to jail in this life, he will suffer in a pit of fire for the rest of eternity. Makes sense.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
So you're saying hell isn't necessarily eternal in Islam?

hell is eternal, however muslims whose sins will outweigh their good deeds will be put to hell to be cleansed/punished for their crimes and then once that is done, the duration of which is known only by Allah, they will be taken into paradise.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Ah I understand, so your saying that if a criminal doesn't go to jail in this life, he will suffer in a pit of fire for the rest of eternity. Makes sense.

it would make much more sense if you didn't try to twist the meaning and post my perspective in a way that proves your point instead of what i am really trying to say.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
hell is eternal, however muslims whose sins will outweigh their good deeds will be put to hell to be cleansed/punished for their crimes and then once that is done, the duration of which is known only by Allah, they will be taken into paradise.

It's always a little confusing when Muslims refer to 'muslims'. When asked for further explanation, sometimes I have been given the response that really it means anyone who is submitted to God, which includes 'people of the book'. Do you agree?

And just for further clarification, are you implying that any person who is not 'muslim', even if a person who commits minimal sin in life, will be in hell forever?
 

Ignite

Member
So you're saying hell isn't necessarily eternal in Islam?

Hell is eternal for all non-muslims in Islam. It is only temporary for the criminals that have submitted to Islam.

"no one would do something just because he is evil." You don't know why anyone would commit a crime, you haven't lived their life, you have absolutely no right to decide that they are evil because of what they have done. A pedophile was raped as a child in more instances than not, when a child is molested, he develops a psychological complex that lingers with him for the rest of his life. You will never know what these people feel, the fact that they would do something so beyond a normal human's moral compus means that they have been affected by something in a way no one of us can understand. The problem with people like you is you don't look at things like this, you see a thief as a criminal, you don't see him as a person who has a starving family back home. You think that people are inflicted with a desire to be evil, this is never the case, if you give anyone the opportunity to do good, they will if the circumstances allow it.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
hell is eternal, however muslims whose sins will outweigh their good deeds will be put to hell to be cleansed/punished for their crimes and then once that is done, the duration of which is known only by Allah, they will be taken into paradise.
So, what happens to non-Muslims?
 
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