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Is There Any Realistic Clean Energy Alternative Besides Nuclear

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Anything bleeding heat into the atmosphere is a potential global warming contributor. Transfer heat from deep underground or as microwaves from space which normally would have been reflected/diverted away from the planet, and there's potentially significant warming.
Heat lurking underground is coming up here anyway, whether we use it or not. If some of it is used to do work, eg, make concrete, then it's
sequestered & would actually reduce heat gain on the surface. It would also reduce fossil fuel usage. But this is moot because this amount of heat
would be relatively insignificant. AGW would be due almost entirely to leveraged causes such as greenhouse gases....the gifts which keep on giving.

As for cheap, plentiful energy, the problem here is that this would discourage improvements in efficiency and encourage profligate energy usage. Keep in mind that all forms of energy -- light, movement, sound, everything -- eventually degrade to energy's simplest form -- heat.
I don't worry that energy would be so cheap that conservation would wane. "Cheap" would mean that it's so green that costs of attendant damage
needn't be built in to the price. Conservation is always a function of energy costs, since conservation efforts & material cost money too, eg,
larger wires to cut voltage drop, LED light bulbs (still $12 to $60 each), insulation retrofit, HVAC upgrades, more efficient motors, new windows.
Anyway, all technologies on the horizon look expensive, even fusion.
 
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no-body

Well-Known Member
Perhaps the underlying idea there is that with cheap unlimited energy, production and consumption of (unnecessary) consumer goods would continue to accelerate, with all the environmental consequences.

Yeah that and the resulting population boom that would happen since there would be enough energy to supply everyone, including the third world.

Of course I don't think that is a bad thing since we would finally have to address the problem.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
What I've heard before is that if we did find a clean, cheap, easy energy source it would actually make things worse in the world if implemented.

Thought maybe it is just conspiracy theory talk.
No, actually you are spot on! But your well-grounded apprehension that more cheap, clean energy will just be added fuel for increasing exploitation of other resources, tells us more about the culture and the economic system we operate under, than about what energy sources to use. It's a simple fact that cutting auto exhaust emissions in half does not decrease air pollution if the number of cars on the road is doubled.

The big problem is that we are toiling away under a globalized capitalist system, which is structured on a money and finance system that is dependent on continuous growth. No growth means debts don't get payed and paper currencies lose their value as fewer new loans are written. The limits to further growth are very real, and we are reaching a point where trying to continue the same old growth and expansion model cannot be done without taking resources from poorer countries and increasing the already dangerous gaps in wealth and income over here.

A good first step would be the promotion and expansion of the cooperative movement, and an end of the corporate shareholder model that dominates the world today. A worker-owned coop has greater aspirations than quarterly profits, and a real stake in the quality of the product and keeping its production local...and not moved to China to try to earn more money regardless of the losses for others left behind. A consumer coop has a real interest in the quality of the products or services they are buying, unlike the corporation, that just wants enough quality to avoid lawsuits and recalls of products.
Trust is the Only Currency: The Cooperative Movement in Century 21
A coop system by itself does not automatically equal easy adjustment to living under the limits to growth; but at least it's possible, unlike the present system that just cannot function without new worlds to conquer, new territories to exploit, and new wars to be fought....just for the hell of it....since warfare stimulates growth in the defense industry sector even without a clear goal in sight.
 
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work in progress

Well-Known Member
Yeah that and the resulting population boom that would happen since there would be enough energy to supply everyone, including the third world.
Here's why cheap energy by itself will not allow continued population growth: Population Growth Drives Water Shortage « Population Matters
This report deals specifically England, but the same pressures are worse in many of the more heavily populated regions of the world, which are facing even greater threat of water shortages:
Ever more people need ever more houses, roads, railways (think HS2), power stations, and quarries to build them; and that means ever less farmland, soil, hence food security, tranquility and open spaces. Climate change and peak oil are making life tougher anyway, even with stable numbers; and basic food security, if it’s achievable at all for 82 million people on our small island, will require more irrigation. Wildlife habitats shrink too under people-pressure – this report is bad news for otters, trout, herons and wetlands, despite all the rearguard actions being fought by the conservationists.”
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Except that hydro is almost fully developed in areas where it is still feasible, and the others are limited when it comes to providing enough electricity at a consistent level.

You should be specific on what country you talking about in your OP.
In Brazil, hydro is responsible for 80%+ energy used.
So it is not only an alternative, it is already our main method.
 
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Yerda

Veteran Member
It's looking unlikely that carbon free renewables could make up a majority of our energy supply at present or near future. The nuclear generators (IFRs) that use the depleted uranium from the old dodgy reactors sound like they might be our best bet. I don't know too much but I've heard some good press from relatively green sources.
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
We all forgot the other elephant in the room. Methane hydrate.
That is - methane clathrate gas contained in a lattice structure of ice, which exists in many locations

I'm not suggesting it is a good idea (at first glance it looks to me like a really bad one), but it is hard to imagine that it will be ignored by energy corporations.

Here's info from Wikipedia about how much there is ...

Reservoir size
The size of the oceanic methane clathrate reservoir is poorly known, and estimates of its size decreased by roughly an order of magnitude per decade since it was first recognized that clathrates could exist in the oceans during the 1960s and '70s. The highest estimates (e.g. 3×1018 m³) were based on the assumption that fully dense clathrates could litter the entire floor of the deep ocean. Improvements in our understanding of clathrate chemistry and sedimentology have revealed that hydrates only form in a narrow range of depths (continental shelves), only at some locations in the range of depths where they could occur (10-30% of the GHSZ), and typically are found at low concentrations (0.9-1.5% by volume) at sites where they do occur. Recent estimates constrained by direct sampling suggest the global inventory occupies between one and five million cubic kilometres (0.24 to 1.2 million cubic miles). This estimate, corresponding to 500-2500 gigatonnes carbon (Gt C), is smaller than the 5000 Gt C estimated for all other fossil fuel reserves but substantially larger than the ~230 Gt C estimated for other natural gas sources. The permafrost reservoir has been estimated at about 400 Gt C in the Arctic,[citation needed] but no estimates have been made of possible Antarctic reservoirs. These are large amounts, for comparison the total carbon in the atmosphere is around 700 gigatons.
These modern estimates are notably smaller than the 10,000 to 11,000 Gt C (2×1016 m³) proposed by previous workers as a motivation considering clathrates as a fossil fuel resource (MacDonald 1990, Kvenvolden 1998). Lower abundances of clathrates do not rule out their economic potential, but a lower total volume and apparently low concentration at most sites does suggest that only a limited percentage of clathrates deposits may provide an economically viable resource.
 
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Duck

Well-Known Member
Earlier today, I got around to listening to one of the podcasts I collect off of Itunes - the NPR science magazine - Science Friday. Hour 2 of the show can be heard here, first under the heading "Recent Episodes.", if you don't use Itunes. This episode featured interviews with Per Petersen, Chair of the Dept. of Nuclear Engineering at Berkeley. They discuss the recently approved new reactors being built at the Vogtle Plant in Georgia, and a nuclear alternative called Small Modular Reactors, I first heard about over a year ago on a blog of a Navy nuclear engineer...who I lost track of somewhere among my links.

First, the Vogtle 3 and 4 reactors, built from a Westinghouse AP 1000 design, are supposed to have incorporated a system that will allow a reactor to be flooded and remain safely below critical temperatures, if the pressurized cooling system broke down in a manner similar to what happened in Fukishima. For what it's worth, the Fukishima reactors were based on an old General Electric design from the 1960's, and if they at least had a passive system to insert control rods -- as in later designs like the Candu reactors, which have the control rods overhead, so they automatically drop if there is a loss of power -- Japan would not have the dilemma today of having to deal with at least three core meltdowns that will take decades and unknown billions to decommission and clean up. The new designs are at least safer with their passive systems, but there still is that problem of the scale of the disasters if an unknown or unforseen disaster strikes.

A better option would likely be the smaller SMR's, which do not even require a pressurized cooling system to begin with, because a passive cooling system doesn't have the complicated array of pumps, pipes, pressure vessels, and the acquired risks involved when there are leaks or blockages, or loss of power with no backup available, lead to rising core temperature, and the resulting hydrogen gas explosions that pose the risk of full scale disaster : Small Reactors Could Figure Into US Energy Future . Some of the encumbrances to building smaller, less complicated nuclear reactors start right with the manner in which the Atomic Energy Commission licenses and regulates the building of nuclear stations. From what I gather from the nuclear power advocates, the A.E.C. makes no distinction in the size or design of the facility -- every reactor has the same licensing cost regardless of size and output, so the builders have an incentive to go big or don't go at all. A little reform in the process, along with the proper costing of the main alternative - natural gas, would help the process; since natural gas and fracked gas are only cheaper right now because they don't have to pay for the costs of their emissions. As long as the carbon costs are dumped on the public, all non-carbon alternatives are limited.

But the SMR's could actually be something that is too good to be true...who knows, until they are actually in use and tested in the real world. But, what is the alternative for providing cheap, abundant electricity that will be essential to power a civilization without relying on fossil fuels? Tidal energy can be utilized in many coastal areas, and it is safe and reliable, but they would likely be high maintenance, because of the high costs due to the destructive and corrosive forces of nature in the places where they would be the most effective. And wind and solar power can be used in many regions, but not everywhere...as Germany is finding out now when their new arrays of windmills and solar powered generating stations are brought down by overcast weather and low winds. On the quiet days, they have to rely more on their oil-fired generating stations and try to buy enough power from France or other neighbours. Germany's decision to go No-Nuclear doesn't look rational in the final analysis.

The most effective way to deal with electricity demands would still be to incentivise efficiency and lower the demands on the grid; but if there is any way out of the blind alley we have walked in to in modern times, with too many people, growing scarcities of natural resources, and an increasingly degraded environment, a clean, cheap abundant source of electricity looks like a crucial part of the process of preserving civilization from a path towards gradual grinding down to another dark ages...or something worse.

BTW, the second part of that Science Friday episode I linked at the top, has an expert on a different, but surprisingly connected subject - Concrete: Concrete Planet: The Strange and Fascinating Story of the World's Most Common Man-made Material

While nuclear power is one of the alternatives to fossil fuels currently available, due to a number of factors it is only really viable in the short term. Limited availability of naturally occurring fissile materials (primarily U235) and man-made/byproduct fissile materials (Pu 239 and Pu 241) as well as the toxicity of mining tailings associated with Uranium mining make the nuclear fission option of only limited longterm utility.

I recently read a paper (it is at home, I will try to remember to post the author and other details later) that looked at the estimated energy needs of the world as a whole (I will have to check but I think that the authors extrapolated the needs of countries with lower infrastructure levels to similar levels of development to the West) and looked at the possibilities and needs associated with providing the energy requirements for the world strictly from renewable energy sources (solar, geothermal, hydrologic, wind and tidal with estimated nuclear power requirements for filler (until the infrastructure and the like were more fully developed for the renewables)). The argument regarding the use of renewables essentially indicated that the limitations were (currently) due to the development of smart distribution systems (smart grid) technology, as well as some needed increases in efficiency in solar, tidal and wind generation systems.

The paper indicated that not only did the authors feel that all renewable energy production was possible, but that they felt it would be likely to be world wide, and that it would be possible to achieve (I don't think likely, but theoretically possible) this by mid century, and possibly (the some draconian steps I think) by 2025 or 2030.

I think that this would be possible, even with current technology, but it would take some major changes in several areas: population density, international cooperation, corporate action, and such services as food production and distribution, manufacturing, road construction, vehicle production and others that I can't think of at the moment.

On a related note, not that long ago, I think that it was actually via a TED talk I saw a research initiative from a group that was producing what they called a "solar roadway" (found it!). This was a fairly innovative approach to powering an electric grid - embedded solar cells in the road way itself. The group added LEDs for "painting" the road (lane markers, stop indicators, etc) and a heating element (like in rear windows of cars) to prevent ice/snow accumulation) along with an electronics package for control of the lighting/heaters. Included in the road cell is a transmission layer (for the power, and other transmissions - TV, telephone, internet, control signals, etc) to minimize or eliminate things like overhead power lines, etc. The thought of the group was that these road cells would also be used for driveways, in parking structures, parking lots and basically anywhere asphalt based road/driving surfaces are located. The group ran some numbers, and estimated that with currently available (commercially) 18.5% efficient solar panels, the current roadway infrastructure of the contiguous U.S. could just about provide the world's needs (current estimates) for electric power.

With some more efficient means of transmission, conceivably using a concept like this (the solar panel road way generally, not necessarily this particular group's approach) the current (and likely future) electricity needs of the world could be supplied. (transmission capabilities would need to be worked out such that the nighttime hemisphere could be supplied from the day time hemisphere).

Coupled with some other generation method (geothermal, building mounted solar, wind, etc) I see no reason to doubt that there are viable alternatives to nuclear power.

One of the primary issues currently with solar power for home/business use has been one of cost per kilowatt-hour when compared to currently available electricity production. The cost basis of fully converting a modern (American) house to solar power is high upfront and just above what the conventional (fossil fuel) power plants produce (something on the order of 15 - 20 cents per kwh for solar as opposed to about 12 (11.54 at end of 2011) cents average for US). Were either the economies of scale or tax/loan incentives present sufficiently the conversion of houses to solar electric would be much higher. Unfortunately for now the fully solar home remains in the realm of the well off and eccentric. Hopefully, this will change.
 

Duck

Well-Known Member
Solar cells on roads here would never last thru a winter.

The group doing the study had included in the road panel a heating element for dealing with the snow/ice accumulation issue. They are based in Idaho so I assume they would be wary of the issue.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The group doing the study had included in the road panel a heating element for dealing with the snow/ice accumulation issue. They are based in Idaho so I assume they would be wary of the issue.
They can be aware, but cells & wiring won't stand up to frost heaving, potholes, traffic, snow plowing, salt, etc.
Studies often happen just cuz the government is tossing money in the direction of friends & trendy window dressing.
It doesn't mean the work has value. This just doesn't pass the smell test.
 

Duck

Well-Known Member
They can be aware, but cells & wiring won't stand up to frost heaving, potholes, traffic, snow plowing, salt, etc.
Studies often happen just cuz the government is tossing money in the direction of friends & trendy window dressing.
It doesn't mean the work has value. This just doesn't pass the smell test.

I am cautiously optimistic about the work. I can hope...
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Heat lurking underground is coming up here anyway, whether we use it or not. If some of it is used to do work, eg, make concrete, then it's
sequestered & would actually reduce heat gain on the surface. It would also reduce fossil fuel usage. But this is moot because this amount of heat
would be relatively insignificant. AGW would be due almost entirely to leveraged causes such as greenhouse gases....the gifts which keep on giving.
Sure, it's coming up, but s-l-o-w-l-y. Pump it up fast and it'll accumulate.
And how do you propose resequestering it after use.:confused:

I don't worry that energy would be so cheap that conservation would wane. "Cheap" would mean that it's so green that costs of attendant damage
needn't be built in to the price.
What do you mean by "green?" If its cheap and plentiful and the cost of externalities isn't included in the price, aren't you going to get profligate usage with lots of "attendant damage?"
Conservation is always a function of energy costs, since conservation efforts & material cost money too, eg,
larger wires to cut voltage drop, LED light bulbs (still $12 to $60 each), insulation retrofit, HVAC upgrades, more efficient motors, new windows.
Anyway, all technologies on the horizon look expensive, even fusion.
Again, you make my case. With cheap energy there's no incentive to conserve and the attendant damage increases.

You should be specific on what country you talking about in your OP.
In Brazil, hydro is responsible for 80%+ energy used.
So it is not only an alternative, it is already our main method.
In Iceland its geo-thermal, as well as hydro.

We all forgot the other elephant in the room. Methane hydrate.
That is - methane clathrate gas contained in a lattice structure of ice, which exists in many locations

I'm not suggesting it is a good idea (at first glance it looks to me like a really bad one), but it is hard to imagine that it will be ignored by energy corporations.
But that sequestered methane is a huge carbon sink! Aren't we trying to reduce our carbon footprint, and looking for ways to sequester the carbon already free?
Isn't burning fossil fuels already acknowledged to be a global warming generator?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Sure, it's coming up, but s-l-o-w-l-y. Pump it up fast and it'll accumulate.
And how do you propose resequestering it after use.:confused:
I see no need to sequester heat. It will radiate to space on its own.
Again, our real risk is that greenhouse gases will interfere with radiating heat.
Tis a relatively far greater issue.

What do you mean by "green?"
Minimal environmental impact, eg, pollution, greenhouse gases

If it's cheaper, it will be used more. The measurable deleterious effect would be in heat islands (ie, cities). On a planet wide basis, the energy we
cast off as a result of generating & using it is minimal compared to GW due to other causes, eg, greenhouse gases, solar albedo, geothermal

I still favor clean cheap energy. But I don't suffer from the illusion that it will solve our problems.
We will pollute, overpopulate & crowd out the wild environment. Cheap energy won't change that.
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Space is our best resource for clean energy. Particularly the Moon. As It's exceedingly rich in Helium-3.
 

Reptillian

Hamburgler Extraordinaire
We should all have small nuclear reactors in our back gardens for energy to power our houses and cars and iphones 4EVa! :cool:

Just like Doc Brown's time machine.

[youtube]f-77xulkB_U[/youtube]
1.21 Gigawatts - Back to the Future (6/10) Movie CLIP (1985) HD - YouTube

Of course! Lightning power! Thats what we need. Giant underground capacitors and batteries attached to a huge lighting rod that will attract the lightning and store the energy underground for future use.
 
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