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Prayers to Mary (and other Saints) (Christians)

ForeverFaithful

Son Worshiper
So of course as a Protestant I believe in praying to Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father exculsively,

However for 15 centuries people prayed to Mary and other saints,

What does that say about prayer? Is it so subjective we can't even tell if they've been answered? How was it for 15 centuries practically all Christians would call upon the Apostles to preform miracles for them and were convinced they could do so?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
I believe it can be done, for those Saints that are given that authority. They work by the same Holy Spirit and by the will of the same Father.

But, I don't think it should be used to endorse the idea that the Father isn't sufficient to be prayed to. There is no will of any saint or angel that supercedes the will of the Father.

When praying in the Spirit (name of Christ), always pray to the Father.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
I believe it can be done, for those Saints that are given that authority. They work by the same Holy Spirit and by the will of the same Father.

But, I don't think it should be used to endorse the idea that the Father isn't sufficient to be prayed to. There is no will of any saint or angel that supercedes the will of the Father.

When praying in the Spirit (name of Christ), always pray to the Father.

I agree. :eek:
 

arcanum

Active Member
Well I could cite 1 timothy 2:5 which says there is one mediator between god and man and that is...Mary? Saint Jude? Saint Bartholomew....hmmm I forgot who does it say?:rolleyes:
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I always pray to God the father.
However I am sure the saints play some part and have a special place in God's Kingdom.
There is no harm, and may be benefit in keeping them in the circle, when praying about things in their special interest.
Many Protestant churches do recognise Saints, and remember them in prayers on their anniversaries in the Litany.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Well I could cite 1 timothy 2:5 which says there is one mediator between god and man and that is...Mary? Saint Jude? Saint Bartholomew....hmmm I forgot who does it say?:rolleyes:

And most other books in the Bible say nothing at all about it.
why give preference to the word of Timothy?
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Fwiw we have a belief in Vaishnava Hinduism, from Lord Krishna Himself:

"Endowed with such a faith, he [a devotee] endeavors to worship a particular demigod and obtains his desires. But in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me alone." Bhagavad Gita 7.22

"Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, but they do so in a wrong way." Bhagavad Gita 9.23

What He means is that even by praying to other divine beings, which is OK but not the best way, He alone as God grants the favors, grace and requests of the devotee. It should hold true for those who pray to Mary or the saints. All prayers ultimately go to God, just as streams and rivers all make their way to the sea.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Can you quote one verse in the new testament that speaks of praying to dead saints or to Mary?

As far as I am aware no one prays to Saints. We ask Saints to pray for us.
However they are invoked as mediators.
This is probably not necessary, but if you believe that Saints can take an interest in the living, I see no reason not to include them.

You ask fellow Christians on earth to pray for you
Why not the saints in Heaven?
 
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Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Christian necromancers? Nah.

This is a very ancient practice. Since when do Christians talk to dead people?

Well, since biblical times actually. Take for example Moses. He had been dead for for a while when Christ started his evangelizing, yet he was intensely interested in earthly matters, judging by his behavior on the Mount of Transfiguration (Luke 9:30-31). Also, see the mysterious dead people who visited Jerusalem on Good Friday (Matthew 27:52-53). Just a few examples. At the very least this shows life after death was not boring and inactive. And it sums it up pretty well in this verse "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (Matthew 22:32). But pray to them? Blasphemy! :ignore:

Let's continue...

The key is understanding that these people we call saints are partakers in God's nature. Why is this important? Well first let me show where it says this:

"...has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:14)

Does that mean only the Saints are partakers in this nature? No. All Christians are but there are some..."spirits of righteous men made perfect" (Heb. 12:23) who dwell in what Hebrews describes as "clouds" in the beginning of the chapter.

So, we know there are dead people around us and that they are made perfect.

With that said, I've heard Christians say: 1 Timothy 2:5 says "there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus."

And this is where the partakers in divine nature comes in that I mentioned above.

Mark Shea (catholic apologist) answers this very question about Jesus being mediator:

True. Not only that, Jesus is also the one Son of God (John 1:14) and the one High Priest (Hebrews 8). Yet he shares that sonship, priesthood and mediatorship with us. Is there scriptural warrant for this? Yes! Where's Jesus? Seated at the right hand of the Father (Ephesians 1:20). Where are we? Right next to him (Ephesians 2:6). How did we get there? God "raised us up" according to that same verse. Why? "To do good works" (like intercede for another) (Ephesians 2:10). How are we to do these good works? "In Christ Jesus" says the same verse. In other words, the prayers of us saints, whether living or dead, totally derive from and depend on Christ.

We know this from experience. Suppose I ask you to pray for me. Am I thereby repudiating Christ as my intercessor before God? No, I am doing his will (and so are you) by recognizing that, as a child of God, you are called to imitate him in this role as in all things. Indeed, it is precisely as you and I obey him in his command to prayer for one another that we discover Christ himself is, in the Holy Spirit, the real guide to all our prayers. We pray "through him, with him, in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit." And as we do, we find that, as St. Paul says, "The Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will" (Romans 8:26-27). In short, the principal Pray-er is not us, but Christ himself, seated at the right hand of the Father, making intercession for us and adoring his Father who gives us--out of sheer love--the gift of participating in the eternal conversation between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Mark P. Shea: Saints: Our Unseen Prayer Partners
 

arcanum

Active Member
Christian necromancers? Nah.

This is a very ancient practice. Since when do Christians talk to dead people?

Well, since biblical times actually. Take for example Moses. He had been dead for for a while when Christ started his evangelizing, yet he was intensely interested in earthly matters, judging by his behavior on the Mount of Transfiguration (Luke 9:30-31). Also, see the mysterious dead people who visited Jerusalem on Good Friday (Matthew 27:52-53). Just a few examples. At the very least this shows life after death was not boring and inactive. And it sums it up pretty well in this verse"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (Matthew 22:32).But pray to them? Blasphemy! :ignore:

Let's continue...

The key is understanding that these people we call saints are partakers in God's nature. Why is this important? Well first let me show where it says this:

"...has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:14)

Does that mean only the Saints are partakers in this nature? No. All Christians are but there are some..."spirits of righteous men made perfect" (Heb. 12:23) who dwell in what Hebrews describes as "clouds" in the beginning of the chapter.

So, we know there are dead people around us and that they are made perfect.

With that said, I've heard Christians say: 1 Timothy 2:5 says"there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus."

And this is where the partakers in divine nature comes in that I mentioned above.

Mark Shea (catholic apologist) answers this very question about Jesus being mediator:

True. Not only that, Jesus is also the one Son of God (John 1:14) and the one High Priest (Hebrews 8). Yet he shares that sonship, priesthood and mediatorship with us. Is there scriptural warrant for this? Yes! Where's Jesus? Seated at the right hand of the Father (Ephesians 1:20). Where are we? Right next to him (Ephesians 2:6). How did we get there? God "raised us up" according to that same verse. Why? "To do good works" (like intercede for another) (Ephesians 2:10). How are we to do these good works? "In Christ Jesus" says the same verse. In other words, the prayers of us saints, whether living or dead, totally derive from and depend on Christ.

We know this from experience. Suppose I ask you to pray for me. Am I thereby repudiating Christ as my intercessor before God? No, I am doing his will (and so are you) by recognizing that, as a child of God, you are called to imitate him in this role as in all things. Indeed, it is precisely as you and I obey him in his command to prayer for one another that we discover Christ himself is, in the Holy Spirit, the real guide to all our prayers. We pray "through him, with him, in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit." And as we do, we find that, as St. Paul says, "The Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will" (Romans 8:26-27). In short, the principal Pray-er is not us, but Christ himself, seated at the right hand of the Father, making intercession for us and adoring his Father who gives us--out of sheer love--the gift of participating in the eternal conversation between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Mark P. Shea: Saints: Our Unseen Prayer Partners
Well I respect what you had to say on this, thank you for making the catholic stance on this subject a little more clear.
 

jtartar

Well-Known Member
So of course as a Protestant I believe in praying to Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father exculsively,

However for 15 centuries people prayed to Mary and other saints,

What does that say about prayer? Is it so subjective we can't even tell if they've been answered? How was it for 15 centuries practically all Christians would call upon the Apostles to preform miracles for them and were convinced they could do so?

ForeverFaithful,
:sorry1: Many things have been done that were wrong during, what is now called the Dark Ages.
The Bible says that God is the Hearer of Prayer, Ps 65:2. Jesus himself said it is only to God that we should render sacred service, Matt 4:10.
Paul said that there is one mediator between man and God, a man, Jesus Christ, 1Tim 2:5. When Peter gave one of his talks soon after Pentecost of 33CE he said that God had given ONE name on earth by which we must get saved, and that there is no salvation in anyone else, Acts 4:12.
Paul said that the man is the HEAD of the woman, 1Cor 11:3. Paul said that a woman should not have authority over a man, 1Tim 2:12. God had written that He is a Jealous God who is exacting EXCLUSIVE DEVOTION, Ex 20:5, 34:14.
Anyone praying to anyone other than Jehovah God is going against God's commandment and is not pleasing to Him. Only the one calling on God's name will be saved, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Rom 10:13.:eek:
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
It´s a psychological help more than any other IMHO.

God can do anything, no need to pray to any other being.

Jesus himself didn´t ask people to pray TO him when he teached us how to pray.

Yet, he did say that if you have faith in him, he can aid you. How does this work?

Well, subconsiously more than any other. You may feel saints, Jesus, etc, are "closer" to God than you. So you pray to them so that through them you can be blessed.

It is in faith that this helps you, not so much on God but on yourslef and on the act.

Many peole believe that maybe what theya re going to ask for may "interfere with God´s plan" or that maybe "God won´t want to give it to me because there is something "more important" " . Jesus warned us against thoughts as those many times. So praying to a saint helps us say "It is not so much my faith, but his faith, so it is much more liikely God will hear him because he has great faith!"

Psychologically, it works. In reality, most of us don´t have faith the size of a mustard seed.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
So of course as a Protestant I believe in praying to Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father exculsively,
So you never ask anyone else to pray for you?
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Despite any Catholic apologetic to the contrary, we just don't have bilical support for asking the dead to interceed for us. We don't even know if they can hear us. Are they omnipresent like God? Certainly not. Is there the equivalent of a heavenly telephone line that directly links us to St. Anthony or Mary so that if we start talking to them they can hear us? Maybe, maybe not. We just don't know. I usually recommend to all the Catholics I know that if they want to believe in the intercession of the saints, at the very least, they need to diversify their prayer portfolio. Pray at least 75 percent of the time to straight to God and if you want to spread around the last 25% to some saints in hopes that they'll put in a good word for you to the big guy then that's your decision
 
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-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Christian necromancers? Nah.

This is a very ancient practice. Since when do Christians talk to dead people?

Well, since biblical times actually. Take for example Moses. He had been dead for for a while when Christ started his evangelizing, yet he was intensely interested in earthly matters, judging by his behavior on the Mount of Transfiguration (Luke 9:30-31). Also, see the mysterious dead people who visited Jerusalem on Good Friday (Matthew 27:52-53). Just a few examples. At the very least this shows life after death was not boring and inactive. And it sums it up pretty well in this verse"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (Matthew 22:32).But pray to them? Blasphemy! :ignore:

Let's continue...

The key is understanding that these people we call saints are partakers in God's nature. Why is this important? Well first let me show where it says this:

"...has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:14)

Does that mean only the Saints are partakers in this nature? No. All Christians are but there are some..."spirits of righteous men made perfect" (Heb. 12:23) who dwell in what Hebrews describes as "clouds" in the beginning of the chapter.

So, we know there are dead people around us and that they are made perfect.

With that said, I've heard Christians say: 1 Timothy 2:5 says"there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus."

And this is where the partakers in divine nature comes in that I mentioned above.

Mark Shea (catholic apologist) answers this very question about Jesus being mediator:

True. Not only that, Jesus is also the one Son of God (John 1:14) and the one High Priest (Hebrews 8). Yet he shares that sonship, priesthood and mediatorship with us. Is there scriptural warrant for this? Yes! Where's Jesus? Seated at the right hand of the Father (Ephesians 1:20). Where are we? Right next to him (Ephesians 2:6). How did we get there? God "raised us up" according to that same verse. Why? "To do good works" (like intercede for another) (Ephesians 2:10). How are we to do these good works? "In Christ Jesus" says the same verse. In other words, the prayers of us saints, whether living or dead, totally derive from and depend on Christ.

We know this from experience. Suppose I ask you to pray for me. Am I thereby repudiating Christ as my intercessor before God? No, I am doing his will (and so are you) by recognizing that, as a child of God, you are called to imitate him in this role as in all things. Indeed, it is precisely as you and I obey him in his command to prayer for one another that we discover Christ himself is, in the Holy Spirit, the real guide to all our prayers. We pray "through him, with him, in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit." And as we do, we find that, as St. Paul says, "The Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will" (Romans 8:26-27). In short, the principal Pray-er is not us, but Christ himself, seated at the right hand of the Father, making intercession for us and adoring his Father who gives us--out of sheer love--the gift of participating in the eternal conversation between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Mark P. Shea: Saints: Our Unseen Prayer Partners

Oddly enough that while Catholicism is painted as the old guard and Protestants as the rebels, it's the Catholics who are usually far more liberal in their interpretations of scriptures. I can't begin to image how one can make the leap from the verses you've quoted to the conclusions you base off of them. Nevertheless, I at least appreciate your attempt at creating a scriptural argument. Usually the number one argument I hear from Catholics on this subject is an appeal to the longevity of their practices and the greatness of the church fathers in their ability to discern the Holy Spirit.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So of course as a Protestant I believe in praying to Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father exculsively,

However for 15 centuries people prayed to Mary and other saints,

What does that say about prayer? Is it so subjective we can't even tell if they've been answered? How was it for 15 centuries practically all Christians would call upon the Apostles to preform miracles for them and were convinced they could do so?
At home, do you only converse with your father? Or are you also cordial to your mother and siblings?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Oddly enough that while Catholicism is painted as the old guard and Protestants as the rebels, it's the Catholics who are usually far more liberal in their interpretations of scriptures. I can't begin to image how one can make the leap from the verses you've quoted to the conclusions you base off of them. Nevertheless, I at least appreciate your attempt at creating a scriptural argument. Usually the number one argument I hear from Catholics on this subject is an appeal to the longevity of their practices and the greatness of the church fathers in their ability to discern the Holy Spirit.

I can only imagine what you mean by liberal. Nonetheless, as a former protestant myself, my imagination may be quite refined in such things. I can't blame you for not being able to grasp it as it takes completely new theological glasses to do so.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
I can only imagine what you mean by liberal. Nonetheless, as a former protestant myself, my imagination may be quite refined in such things. I can't blame you for not being able to grasp it as it takes completely new theological glasses to do so.

If by "theological glasses" you're refering to a Catechism (I.e. the guide to Catholic extra biblical tradition) then I couldn't agree more
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Well I could cite 1 timothy 2:5 which says there is one mediator between god and man and that is...Mary? Saint Jude? Saint Bartholomew....hmmm I forgot who does it say?:rolleyes:

Do you ever pray for anyone else?
 
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