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Jesus and Gnosticism

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
In another thread it has come to my attention that some believe that Gnostic Christianity is the original uncorrupted form of the Christian religion and not a later development. And that Jesus a 1st century Jew from northern Israel might somehow be the originator of Gnosticism giving Gnostic Christianity a much earlier beginning than I previously thought.

So I would like to know if anyone can provide any evidence if this is true.

How exactly did Gnosticism evolve in 1st century Galilee? Could you also please provide me where in the earliest sources available does Jesus preach Gnosticism?
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
Did you happen to read the Nag Hammadi library in which Jesus is portrayed as fully human? Did you notice that Jesus of the Nag Hammadi library was a speaker of wisdom who performed no magical feats? Did you happen to read in texts we label as "gnostic" that the only healings Jesus and his disciples did were with medicine they bought with the offerings they were given?

Which Jesus is more likely to be the Jesus of history? Magical canonized self-ressurrecting Jesus or fully-human non-canonized Jesus? People should ask themselves, "Why did magical Jesus get sanctioned and the non-magical Jesus get all but erased from history?"
 
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Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
Something I just thought of just now. In the gnostic works, the characters of Thomas and Mary Magdalene were regarded as beings who understood Jesus deeply, both having gnostic titles attributed to them.

In the canonized gospels, Mary Magdalene is reduced to a repentant prostitute, and we've all heard the expression "doubting Thomas". To me, these sort of insults speak to the possibility that the writer is attempting to discredit Thomas and Mary Magdalene.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
So little of Gnostic scripture remains to us, that almost every thing is now conjecture.
Mary Magdalene was clearly very close to Jesus and was fundamentally important to the future of Christianity in those first few weeks after his death.

However nothing could make up for the masculine domination of the society in which they lived. and first she and later Gnosticism were marginalised.

Perhaps Gnosticism, even then an Ancient concept, was so difficult to understand, for it to be more than a fringe movement in Christianity.

It is certainly possible that Jesus did understand and use some gnostic concepts in his teachings.

The Gnostic sects that exist today are not a direct continuation of the original churches but are restorationist.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
We don't really know what "Gnosticism" is. Cerinthus, a very Jewish Christian of whom the accusations against him by the Orthodox seem to clash, was called a "Gnostic", but he was nothing like the Sethians, who were more in line with what is commonly called "Gnostic". Marcion held views that are consistent with the later definition of "Gnosticism" The Sethians and Orphites and Cainites if anything are the basis of what later became known as "Gnosticism", and they were not at all an organized group. Many of the early "Gnostic" groups held views that were quite in line with Judaism at the time, and the idea of the OT god as evil and the "demiurge" as the good guy was far from a universal "Gnostic" theme until later. There may even be certain aspects of Early (Pre-Sethian) Gnosticism that I would agree with and that most 2nd Temple era Jews would as well, though I'm not completely sure on that.

If anything, Gnosticism's roots are in pre-Christian Judaism.

Jewish Origins of Gnosticism

Ophites, Cainites, and Sethians all derive from the Jewish Diaspore. Their members were recruited from the Jewish radicals known to us from Philo, and from philosophically oriented proselytes who had attached themselves to the synagogues. Indeed, Filastrius numbers the Ophites, Cainites, and Sethians among the sects that flourished in Judaism 'before the advent of Jesus." It is obvious that these sects could not have originated from within Christianity, from the very fact that their chief doctrines are derived from the Old Testament rather than from the New. The divine power was seen by them to reside in the Old Testament figures of the serpent, Cain, and other such biblical personages as were not fied to the Law. These Old Testament figures were adhered to even after the Gnosfics came into contact with Christianity. Their origin, in short, is traceable to the situafion in Alexandrian Judaism wherein allegorical exposifion of the Law flourished, and wherein antinomianism also developed.
To those who say the Nag Hammadi texts don't have Jesus performing miracles, that is simply untrue, such as we have in the Testimony of Truth about him walking on Water and healing people:

For the Son of Man clothed himself with their first-fruits; he went down to Hades and performed many mighty works. He raised the dead therein; and the world-rulers of darkness became envious of him, for they did not find sin in him. But he also destroyed their works from among men, so that the lame, the blind, the paralytic, the dumb, (and) the demon-possessed were granted healing. And he walked upon the waters of the sea. For this reason he destroyed his flesh from [...] which he [...]. And he became [...] salvation [...] his death ...

Second Treatise of Seth says that Jesus kicked out someone's soul from their body and took over:
"I visited a bodily dwelling. I cast out the one who was in it previously, and I went in
I'd call that some kind of supernatural indication.

And in other works such as the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, we have a young Jesus performing miracles as well, though that's not Nag Hammadi, it shows a non-canonical tradition of such.

And when we get into the Apocryphal "Acts" (Some of which I may consider inspired like Acts of Peter that may even be referenced in the so-called "Canonical" books like Timothy) we see much miracle working among the Apostles.



Infancy Gospel of Thomas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Shermana

Heretic
Something I just thought of just now. In the gnostic works, the characters of Thomas and Mary Magdalene were regarded as beings who understood Jesus deeply, both having gnostic titles attributed to them.

In the canonized gospels, Mary Magdalene is reduced to a repentant prostitute, and we've all heard the expression "doubting Thomas". To me, these sort of insults speak to the possibility that the writer is attempting to discredit Thomas and Mary Magdalene.

Please prove that the Gospels say that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. (Hint: They don't). Pope Gregory started this unfounded claim. Also, the story of "Doubting Thomas" appears to be a later interpolation, as the ending of John clashes with the endings of Luke and Matthew. Bernard Muller here demonstrates that the original version of John likely ended at John 20:10. I repeat this a LOT when Trinitarians bring up John 20:28, but it fits for this subject too.

The complete text of the original John's gospel
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Also, the story of "Doubting Thomas" appears to be a later interpolation, as the ending of John clashes with the endings of Luke and Matthew. Bernard Muller here demonstrates that the original version of John likely ended at John 20:10. I repeat this a LOT when Trinitarians bring up John 20:28, but it fits for this subject too.
Wait, what? Maybe it's because I'm still waking up, but I haven't make heads or tails of your source. It doesn't seem to cohere with any textual criticism (in methods or results) I've read, either for the NT or in classics. What's more, he doesn't refer to the Greek, so it's hard to follow his points on analysis of what seems to be English translations. Finally, there are no main textual variants in the doubting thomas episode. Not only are parts of John after 20:10 attested to in the papyri, it's in our most important manuscripts from Sinaiticus on.


As for Mary:
I'm running on of memory here, but as Angellous is participating here I can get away with such laziness counting on his corrections (totally unfair of me, of course).

If memory serves the first time Mary Magdalene was explicitly identified as a prostitute was by a fairly early pope (Gregory?). However, I seem to recall some arguments that there are indications that in the gospels which (if historical) support to some extent this interpretation. One is simply how she was identified (not by relation to a male but to a place- Magdala). This may indicate not just the fact that she was unattached but had some independent wealth (something which allowed her to operate independently in a misogynistic world where women typically couldn't, and even wealthy women were connected to male supervisors).

Additionally, while the "demons" Jesus drives out are often referred to as possessing (or possessed by) pneuma akathartos, incuding the other women among whom Mary Magdalene is singled out in Luke, she herself is said to have had daimonia or demons. There seems to be a distinction. For one thing, daimonion need not have the adjective akathartos or unclean as pneuma does. Second, by NT times (and in christian literature) it is almost always associated with evil or wickedness. It's true that it does describe mental or physical illness as well, but as these were often seen as the product of immorality, one can't equate sickness and daimonion. Also, there although it is likely that many thought to be possessed were mentally ill, they could also simply be thought immoral (or physically ill). In other words, a sick person might be under the control of an unclean spirit or a demon, but so might a person who performs wicked deeds or acts immorally.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
Well, start with what I said about the ending of John clashing with Luke and Matthew: Where did the Disciples first meet Jesus:
a) In a locked room near Jerusalem
b) In Galilee
C) In the mountains.

Are you aware that there is much contention about Chapter 21 being forged even though we have no textual variants of it? Sinaiticus is from the 4th century, it's good for many things like debunking the Receptus and KJV but still leaves many questions.


As for Mary being a prostitute, as you can see, there is nothing in the Gospels explicitly saying she was a prostitute, it is pure conjecture. She could have been possessed by demons for many reasons OTHER than prostituting herself. Maybe she killed someone. Maybe she stole. Maybe she had pre-marital relations that didn't involve direct prostitution. Maybe she cursed G-d. Many reasons.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Did you happen to read the Nag Hammadi library in which Jesus is portrayed as fully human? Did you notice that Jesus of the Nag Hammadi library was a speaker of wisdom who performed no magical feats? Did you happen to read in texts we label as "gnostic" that the only healings Jesus and his disciples did were with medicine they bought with the offerings they were given?

Which Jesus is more likely to be the Jesus of history? Magical canonized self-ressurrecting Jesus or fully-human non-canonized Jesus? People should ask themselves, "Why did magical Jesus get sanctioned and the non-magical Jesus get all but erased from history?"

So you're saying that the whole of the Nag Hammadi library portrays Jesus has just a fully human philosopher.

May I have your sources?
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
As for Mary being a prostitute, as you can see, there is nothing in the Gospels explicitly saying she was a prostitute, it is pure conjecture. She could have been possessed by demons for many reasons OTHER than prostituting herself. Maybe she killed someone. Maybe she stole. Maybe she had pre-marital relations that didn't involve direct prostitution. Maybe she cursed G-d. Many reasons.

Or maybe she was merely mentally ill.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Or maybe she was merely mentally ill.

I believe all mental illness (not including mere evil-inclinations and basic behavioral issues) back in the day was attributed to Demonic possession or influence. (And may very well be the case). Maybe it very well was punishment for evil of sorts. Maybe people who claim to hear voices are those who did very bad things.

Point being, Mary was not necessarily a prostitute, that is an unwarranted, unverifiable Papal assertion.
 
Did you happen to read the Nag Hammadi library in which Jesus is portrayed as fully human? Did you notice that Jesus of the Nag Hammadi library was a speaker of wisdom who performed no magical feats? Did you happen to read in texts we label as "gnostic" that the only healings Jesus and his disciples did were with medicine they bought with the offerings they were given?

Which Jesus is more likely to be the Jesus of history? Magical canonized self-ressurrecting Jesus or fully-human non-canonized Jesus? People should ask themselves, "Why did magical Jesus get sanctioned and the non-magical Jesus get all but erased from history?"

Magical, self-resurrecting Jesus stuck around because of the Christianization of Europe; Northern Europe in particular. I would love to have the chance to study the Gospels in their most original writings; as well as some of the other writings about Jesus in their original forms. I would compare them against the stories of Odin and other pagan figures. For example; how many of us are aware that Odin hung himself from a tree for three days and nights, with a spear in his side, for the betterment of mankind? (Through gaining wisdom)

I have believed for years, as do many others, that some of the more fantastical stories of Jesus were picked up as missionaries passed through various lands. We know, for example, that the original Saturday worship was changed to Sunday worship to make conversion easier for pagans. Why not implement favored abilities and stories of the pagan deities into the fabric that became Super-Jesus?

Please prove that the Gospels say that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. (Hint: They don't). Pope Gregory started this unfounded claim. Also, the story of "Doubting Thomas" appears to be a later interpolation, as the ending of John clashes with the endings of Luke and Matthew. Bernard Muller here demonstrates that the original version of John likely ended at John 20:10. I repeat this a LOT when Trinitarians bring up John 20:28, but it fits for this subject too.

<I have to snip out the link because I'm under 15 posts>

A prostitute is mentioned, then Mary of Magdalene enters the scene in a neighboring verse. We can't have a Jesus who may be "close" to one of his disciples because then he can't be close to his "Bride" (the church) without things getting weird. Easy fix in sight! Associate Mary with the prostitute - no one will want to think of Jesus touching a prostitute! And the masses are appeased....

Seriously though, I remember mentioning my belief in a married Jesus once in Christian School. All I remember was being threatened with suspension and being told that Jesus wouldn't have touched a prostitute; despite lack of biblical evidence that Mary of Magdalene was a prostitute. It is so heavily engrained in the minds of the masses they just won't hear otherwise.

So you're saying that the whole of the Nag Hammadi library portrays Jesus has just a fully human philosopher.

May I have your sources?

Beloved Sister, I believe he is claiming the Nag Hammadi Library as his source. :yes:

Most lovingly,
Sayi Nazir
 

Shermana

Heretic
A prostitute is mentioned, then Mary of Magdalene enters the scene in a neighboring verse. We can't have a Jesus who may be "close" to one of his disciples because then he can't be close to his "Bride" (the church) without things getting weird. Easy fix in sight! Associate Mary with the prostitute - no one will want to think of Jesus touching a prostitute! And the masses are appeased....

Feel free to quote exactly where it mentions a prostitute immediately preceding mention of Mary for discussion.
 
Feel free to quote exactly where it mentions a prostitute immediately preceding mention of Mary for discussion.

Luke 7:36-50, though not specifically mentioning a prostitute, is often taken to mean a prostitute as she is mentioned as a "woman of the city who was a sinner".

Mary of Magdalene is mentioned in Luke 8:2.

Many make the connection that a [possible] prostitute is healed/forgiven [may have had demons cast out] and then, shortly after, Mary of Magdalene, a woman who had demons cast out, is mentioned. Quid pro quo, they must be the same person. (From the perspective of the Church)

I remain respectfully yours,
Sayi Nazir
 
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Shermana

Heretic
It more or less says "Woman in the city" and that she had "lived an immoral life". That COULD mean she was a prostitute, just as much as it could mean she was a hired killer, but there's some case for saying it meant prostitute I suppose, but just as easily one could say she was an adulteress instead. Though when it comes to the sins of a woman, sexual is often implied, but there's no telling if she was in fact a prostitute.

Nonetheless, according to the Wiki article,

"Though some earlier interpreters blended the person of Mary of Bethany with Mary Magdalene and the sinful woman of Luke 7:36-50, current scholars believe she was a different person"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene

So it's debatable if she was the same woman, the text seems to imply otherwise.
 
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CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
It more or less says "Woman in the city" and that she had "lived an immoral life". That COULD mean she was a prostitute, just as much as it could mean she was a hired killer, but there's some case for saying it meant prostitute I suppose.

Or it could mean she mistreated people or was godless or a number of things.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, start with what I said about the ending of John clashing with Luke and Matthew: Where did the Disciples first meet Jesus:
a) In a locked room near Jerusalem
b) In Galilee
C) In the mountains.

Sources are wont to disagree. In fact, when they are too similar, it might be because they are relying on the same sources (like Matthew and Luke most likely relied on Mark and Q, whereas John did not).

Are you aware that there is much contention about Chapter 21 being forged even though we have no textual variants of it?
No, actually, I haven't come across a single academic source on the subject. Granted, I've only read perhaps a few dozen journal articles, and maybe half a dozen books, and I have a textual commentary on the NT to go along with my greek version, but textual criticism isn't a big area of interest for me, especially when it comes to the NT (where we have so much evidence).

Sinaiticus is from the 4th century, it's good for many things like debunking the Receptus and KJV but still leaves many questions.
In fact, the number of texts we have make the task of the NT textual critic a joke compared to textual criticisms in classics. In the 4th edition of The Texts of the New Testament by Bruce Metzger and Bart Ehrman, we find: "the textual critic of the New Testament is embarrassed by the wealth of material. Furthermore, the work of many ancient authors has been preserved only in manuscripts that date from the Middle Ages (sometimes the late Middle ages), far removed from the time at which they lived and wrote. On the contrary, the time between the composition of the books of the New Testament and the earliest extant copies is relatively brief. Instead of the lapse of a millenium or more, as is the case of not a few classical authors, several papyrus manuscripts of portions of the New Testament are extant that were copied within a century or so after the composition of the original documents."




As for Mary being a prostitute, as you can see, there is nothing in the Gospels explicitly saying she was a prostitute
Quite true.

it is pure conjecture. She could have been possessed by demons for many reasons OTHER than prostituting herself. Maybe she killed someone. Maybe she stole. Maybe she had pre-marital relations that didn't involve direct prostitution. Maybe she cursed G-d. Many reasons.
Stealing and and other similar crimes don't explain here independence in a culture where women are identified by their relations to men (husband, father, etc.). This doesn't mean prostitution is by any means the only explanation, but your suggestions are pretty unlikely.
 
It more or less says "Woman in the city" and that she had "lived an immoral life". That COULD mean she was a prostitute, just as much as it could mean she was a hired killer, but there's some case for saying it meant prostitute I suppose, but just as easily one could say she was an adulteress instead. Though when it comes to the sins of a woman, sexual is often implied, but there's no telling if she was in fact a prostitute.

Nonetheless, according to the Wiki article,

<I had to snip out the link, under 15 posts>

So it's debatable if she was the same woman, the text seems to imply otherwise.

I don't think they're the same person. I am sorry if you were led to believe that I did. I am implying they are different individuals.

Or it could mean she mistreated people or was godless or a number of things.

As stated above, women are usually depicted as being "immoral" in the Bible when they use their feminine "charms" on men. It could mean that she was inhospitable, an idolator, etc - as you state - but as long as we're assuming we might as well assume with the card that wins the most hands and think of her as a prostitute.

Sayi Nazir
 

GabrielWithoutWings

Well-Known Member
From what I understand, classical Gnosticism is a sort of syncretism between pre-Christian Judaism, Alexandrian Paganism, and Middle Platonism.

In regards to Mary Magdalen, if you are going with the fact that she's the woman whom seven devils were cast out (it never specifically says it's her), I've seen a Gnostic interpretation of this.

The seven devils were the Seven Archons who rule the planetary spheres and thus, fate. The Gnostics thought they were the enemy because they railroaded human life. Thus, when the Archons were cast out, the Magdalen was able to receive Gnosis and change her fate.
 
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