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Why can't I go to heaven?

waitasec

Veteran Member
Originally Posted by religion99
When you view something , smell something , hear something , taste something or touch something ; is there any intermediation involved?



Aren't Eyes , Nose , Ears , Tongue and Skin respectively intermediations in all the above experiences?
absolutely not.


As you yourself has suggested , it is possible to experience these without senses. Only in those sepcial cases , I'll classify them as "direct".

where did i say that?

what special cases...there is no double standard when experiencing empirical evidence.

there is, however, a double standard when experiencing subjective evidence.
 

religion99

Active Member
absolutely not.

Then , they are either "experincer" or "experienced". They are clearly not "experienced".

Therefore , they have to be "experiencer" ie intrinsic part of us. Do you agree?


where did i say that?
Here:

waitasec said:
no, not really. blind people experience sun burns as well those that have sight.

deaf people can experience vibrations from sound

what special cases...there is no double standard when experiencing empirical evidence.

there is, however, a double standard when experiencing subjective evidence.[/quote]
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Then , they are either "experincer" or "experienced". They are clearly not "experienced".

Therefore , they have to be "experiencer" ie intrinsic part of us. Do you agree?
yes as these senses are apart of me and what makes up my awareness



no. not at all you forgot to mention this
these experiences are direct.
light is radiation
sound is vibration we all experience these things...
radiation affects our senses...sun burn
so are vibrations...
these are empirical experiences
 

suzimcq

suzi
I just posted "the idea of hell" on the forum. you may be interested in reading it. I have never been able to except the idea of hell in christian dogma. it makes no sense to me.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
faith that needs no proving is like saying god told me to fly into the WTC...
so here i go...


not a good argument thief...in fact it's a dangerous one.

Your last post was a quantum leap from this rebuttal.

And this technique puts words in my mouth of which I have no part.

Faith needs no proving...Webster's.

And the topic is 'why you can't go to heaven'.....
 

obi one

Member
The title sounds dumb I know, but hear me out.

For the sake of argument, let's just say that god does in fact exist. Being an atheist, I would therefore be condemned to suffer an eternity of torment in hell. But...

Why? I am a good person. I'm not a criminal and I've never done drugs. On any normal day, I will go out of my way to help someone if they ask. Sometimes they don't even need to; I'll just offer my help. So if god is just sitting up there watching all this, why would he send me to hell? Because I don't believe? It was him after all who gave me the ability to not believe. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't, because I find the idea of an omnipotent creator absurd and illogical. If he truly did love me, as the bible says he claims to do, then surely he would be able to overlook the transgression of a difference of opinion when I am an overall good person.

Anyone else share the same theory, or have something to counter with?

First of all, eternal torment in hell & purgatory theory originates in such writings as Dante's 14th century poems and other fictional books. It may have imbedded itself into church dogma, but like most of the church teachings, it is mostly based on the traditions of men, and has no real Scriptural basis.
Secondly, it seems that you are taking the preaching of Paul far too seriously. The guy is a self professed apostle who went around killing followers of Yeshua, and was supported at times by as many as 2 cohorts of Roman troops. Other than the fact that the Roman church had government support with the largest army, you wouldn't even know who Paul was.
As for believing in Yeshua, Yeshua was the embodiment of the Law and the Prophets, and the embodiment of the Law and the Prophets is to treat others as you would have them treat you. If you believe you should look after your neighbor, and follow through on it, I would think you shouldn't have much to worry about as far earthly judgements from God

Now on the other hand you are looking for more, then you will have to seek for kingdom of God, which is a personal search, best done away from the influence of churches and their stumbling blocks.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Your last post was a quantum leap from this rebuttal.



And this technique puts words in my mouth of which I have no part.

no you are the one who brought up the golden rule.

i just refuted that argument too. :sorry1:


Faith needs no proving...Webster's.

And the topic is 'why you can't go to heaven'.....


faith needs no proving yet the bible is proof? :confused: :shrug:
makes absolutely no sense.

it takes 2 to tango...
you are just as guilty as i
 

meddlehaze

Ambassador
Your last post was a quantum leap from this rebuttal.

And this technique puts words in my mouth of which I have no part.

Faith needs no proving...Webster's.

And the topic is 'why you can't go to heaven'.....
This depends on which faith you speak of.
If you are referring to Christian faith, you should probably look at the way the Biblical writers defined the word rather than 1st century English translators. Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic/English define words very differently.

Let's take a look at the Greek for faith in Christ;
πίστις - (transliteration)- Pistis - trust, confidence in, or persuaded.

Nowhere in the definition have I come across the idea that it needs no proving. Maybe in the Websters definition sure, but that word isn't in the original manuscripts with that definition.
 

ankarali

Active Member
The title sounds dumb I know, but hear me out.

For the sake of argument, let's just say that god does in fact exist. Being an atheist, I would therefore be condemned to suffer an eternity of torment in hell. But...

Why? I am a good person. I'm not a criminal and I've never done drugs. On any normal day, I will go out of my way to help someone if they ask. Sometimes they don't even need to; I'll just offer my help. So if god is just sitting up there watching all this, why would he send me to hell? Because I don't believe? It was him after all who gave me the ability to not believe. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't, because I find the idea of an omnipotent creator absurd and illogical. If he truly did love me, as the bible says he claims to do, then surely he would be able to overlook the transgression of a difference of opinion when I am an overall good person.

Anyone else share the same theory, or have something to counter with?

Hi, sorry for my english which is not good I will try to answer you according to Islam.

God created the world. The angels, animals and after the human being. The degree of angels and the animals are constant. They don't have an award. But human being is different he has the possibility to choose the good and bad and he is responsible for his acts. First we must thank to God because he created us.

If you say God does not exist it means everything he created not exist. And you commit a crime. You kill all beings. According to law if you kill somebody (it takes 1 minute) you pass at least 189.216.000 minutes in jail. You by killing all beings in the world now calculate how many times you should pass in the Hell.

If you are a good people in the world and you don't believe in God it changes nothing because you are a rebellious you killed all beings and you should go to jail.

here a paragraph to understand better:


Introduction​
It may be said that the existence of the angels and spirit beings is as definite as that of human beings and animals. Indeed, as is explained in the First Step of the Fifteenth Word, reality undoubtedly requires and wisdom certainly demands that like the earth the heavens too have inhabitants, and that its inhabitants are intelligent, and that they are suitable for the heavens. In the tongue of the Shari'a, those inhabitants, of which there are numerous kinds, are called angels and spirit beings.
Indeed, reality requires it to be thus. For despite the earth's smallness and insignificance in relation to the heavens, its being filled with intelligent beings and from time to time being emptied and then refilled with new ones suggests – rather, states clearly – that the heavens too, with their majestic constellations like adorned palaces, are filled with animate creatures, the light of the light of existence, and conscious and intelligent creatures, the light of animate creatures. Like man and the jinn, those creatures too are spectators of the palace of the world, and ponderers over the book of the universe, and heralds of this realm of Dominicality. With their universal and comprehensive worship, they represent the mighty and universal glorification of the universe.
The nature of the universe surely points to their existence. For since it is embellished and decked out with uncountable numbers of finely adorned works of art and meaningful decorations and wise embroideries, it self-evidently requires the gazes of thoughtful admirers and wondering, appreciative lovers; it demands their existence. Yes, just as beauty requires a lover, so too is food is given to the hungry. Thus, the sustenance of spirits and nourishment of hearts in this boundless beauty of art looks to the angels and spirit beings; it points to them. For while this infinite adornment requires an infinite duty of contemplation and worship, man and the jinn can perform only a millionth of that infinite duty, that wise supervision, that extensive worship. This means that boundless varieties of angels and spirit beings are necessary to perform those duties, and to fill and inhabit the mighty mosque of the world with their ranks.
Indeed, a species of the spirit beings and angels is present in every aspect, in every sphere of the universe, each charged with a duty of worship. It may be said according to both the narrations of a number of Hadith and the wisdom in the order of the world that from some lifeless planets and stars to raindrops, each is a ship or vehicle for a kind of angel. The angels mount these vehicles with Divine permission and travel observing the Manifest World; they represent their praise and glorification.
And it also may be said that certain sorts of living bodies act as aeroplanes for different kinds of spirits. From the birds of Paradise, called the Green Birds in a Hadith which indicates that: "the spirits of the people of Paradise enter into Green Birds in the Intermediate Realm and travel around Paradise in them", to flies, each is a vehicle for a sort of spirit. The spirits enter into them at a Divine command, and through the faculties and senses of those living bodies like eyes and ears, observe the miracles of creation in the corporeal world. They perform the particular glorification of each.
And so, just as reality necessitates it to be thus, so too does wisdom. For, with an intense activity, the All-Wise Maker continuously creates subtle life and luminous intelligent beings from dense earth, which has little connection with spirit, and from turbid water, which has small relation with the light of life. He surely then creates certain sorts of intelligent beings from the seas of light and even from the oceans of darkness, from the air, electricity, and from other subtle matter most suitable for spirit and appropriate for life. And surely these creatures are exceedingly numerous.
First Aim

To believe in the angels and affirm that belief is a pillar of faith. There are four Fundamental Points in this Aim.
FIRST FUNDAMENTAL POINT
The perfection of existence is through life. Rather, the true existence of existence is through life. Life is the light of existence, and consciousness is the light of life. Life is the summit and foundation of everything. Life appropriates everything for each thing; it is as though it makes one thing the owner of everything. Through life, one living thing may say: “All these things belong to me. The world is my house. The universe is my property, given to me by my owner.”
Just as light is the cause of things being seen, and, according to some, of the existence of colours, so too is life the revealer of beings; it is the cause of their qualities being realized. Furthermore, it makes an insignificant particular general and universal, and is the cause of universal things being concentrated in a particular. And it is the cause of all the perfections of existence, by, for example, making innumerable things co-operate and unite, and making them the means of unity and endowing them with a spirit. Life is even a sort of manifestation of Divine Unity in the levels of multiplicity, and a mirror reflecting Divine Oneness.
Consider the following: a lifeless object, even if it is a great mountain, is an orphan, a stranger, alone. Its only relations are with the place in which it is situated, and with the things which encounter it. Whatever else there is in the cosmos, it does not exist for the mountain. For the mountain has neither life through which it might be related to life, nor consciousness with which it might be connected.
Now consider a tiny object like a bee, for example. The instant life enters it, it establishes such a connection with the whole universe that it is as though it concludes a trading agreement with it, especially with the flowers and plants of the earth. It can say: “The earth is my garden; it is my trading house.” Thus, through the unconscious instinctive senses which impel and stimulate it in addition to the well-known five external senses and inner senses of animate beings, the bee has a feeling for, and a familiarity and reciprocal relationship with most of the species in the world, and they are at its disposal.
If life then displays its effect thus in the tiniest of animate beings, certainly, when it rises to the highest level, that of man, it will be revealed and extended and illumined to such a degree that just as a human being is able to move through the rooms of his house with his consciousness and mind, which are the light of life, so too may he travel through the higher, and the spiritual and corporeal worlds with them. That is to say, just as that conscious and animate being may go in spirit as though as a guest to those worlds, those worlds too come as guests to his mirror-like spirit by being reflected and depicted there.
Life is a most brilliant proof of the All-Glorious One’s Unity, and one of the greatest sources of His bounty; it is a most subtle manifestation of His compassionateness, and a most hidden, unknowable, and incomparable embroidery of His art.
Indeed, life is hidden and subtle, because the life of plants even, which is the lowest of the levels of life, and the awakening of the life-force in seeds, that is, their stirring, opening, and growth, which are the first steps in plant life, has remained unfathomed by human science since the time of Adam, despite being so evident and familiar, so ubiquitous and common. Man’s reason has been unable to discover its true reality.
Moreover, life is so pure and unblemished that in both its aspects, that is in both its inner and outer faces, it is pure, translucent, transparent. Not veiling it with causes, the Hand of Power touches it directly. Whereas It made apparent causes a veil, to be the source of the insignificant aspects of things and their base external qualities, which are inappropriate to the dignity of Power.
 

ankarali

Active Member
IN SHORT: It may be said that if there was no life, existence would not be existence; it would be no different from non-existence. Life is the light of the spirit, and consciousness is the light of life. Since life and consciousness are important to this great extent; and since there is self-evidently an absolutely perfect order in the universe, and a masterly precision and most wise harmony; and since our lowly, wretched globe, our wandering earth has been filled with uncountable numbers of animate beings, intelligent beings, and beings with spirits, it may be concluded with decisive certainty that those heavenly palaces, those lofty constellations also have animate and conscious inhabitants appropriate to them. As fish swim in water, so also are those luminous inhabitants present in the fire of the sun. Fire does not consume light; rather, Fire aids light.
Moreover, since, as is plain to see, Pre-Eternal Power creates innumerable animate beings and beings with spirits from the most common substances and densest matter, and giving it great importance, transmutes dense matter by means of life into a subtle substance; and since it strews the light of life everywhere in great abundance, and gilds most things with the light of consciousness, with such flawless power and faultless wisdom, the All-Wise and All-Powerful One would certainly not neglect the other floods of subtle matter like light and ether, which are close to and fitting for the spirit; He would not leave them without life, without consciousness, inanimate. Indeed, He creates animate and conscious beings in great numbers from light, which is also matter, and even from meanings, air, and even words. Just as He creates numerous different species of animals, so too from these torrents of subtle matter does He create numerous different spirit creatures. One kind of them are the angels, others are the varieties of spirit beings and jinn. If you wish to see just how true, self-evident, and rational it is to accept the existence of great numbers of angels and spirit beings, and as the Qur’an shows, just how contrary to truth and wisdom, and what a superstition, aberration, delirium and foolishness it is not to accept them, consider the following comparison.
There were two men, one rustic and uncouth, the other civilized and intelligent, who made friends and went to a mighty city like Istanbul. In a distant corner of that civilized and magnificent city they came across a dirty, wretched little building, a factory. They looked and saw that the strange factory was full of miserable, impoverished men working. And all around the building were beings with spirits and animate beings, but their means of livelihood and conditions of life were such that some were herbivorous, they lived only on plants, while others were piscivorous, they ate nothing but fish.
The two men watched the scene. Then they saw in the distance thousands of adorned palaces and lofty castles. Among the palaces were spacious workshops and broad squares. Because of either the distance, or the defectiveness of the men’s eyesight, or because they had hidden themselves, the inhabitants of the palaces were not visible to the two men. Moreover, the wretched conditions in the factory were not to be seen in the palaces. In consequence of this, the uncouth country-bumpkin, who had never before seen a city, declared: “Those palaces have no inhabitants, they are empty, there are no beings with spirits in them,” uttering the most ignorant garbled nonsense. To which the second man replied:
“Oh you miserable man! This insignificant little building you see here has been filled with beings endowed with spirits, with workers, and there is someone who continually employs and replaces them. Look, there is not an empty space all around this factory, it has been filled with animate beings and beings with spirits. Do you think it is at all possible that there would be no high-ranking and suitable inhabitants in that well-ordered city, in those wisely adorned palaces so full of art which we can see in the distance? Of course they are occupied, and the different conditions of life there are appropriate for those who live there. Indeed, in place of grass, they eat pastries, and in place of fish, cakes. Their not being visible to you because of the distance, or your weak eyesight, or their hiding themselves, can at no time point to their not being there.” The fact that a thing is not seen does not indicate its non-existence.
And so, as the above comparison indicates, the globe of the earth being the home of these infinite numbers of beings endowed with consciousness and spirit, despite its insignificance and density among the lofty heavenly bodies and planets, and even its grossest and most rotten particulars becoming masses of microorganisms when they cease as sources of life, necessarily, demonstrably, decisively indicates to, testifies to and proclaims that infinite space and the majestic heavens with their constellations and stars are full of animate beings, conscious beings, and beings with spirits. The Illustrious Shari’a of Muhammad (Upon whom be blessings and peace) and the Qur’an of Miraculous Exposition call these beings, who are created from fire, light, and even from electricity, and from other subtle flowing matter, “The angels, the jinn, and spirit beings”. There are different kinds of angels, just as there are different kinds of corporeal beings. Indeed, the angel who is appointed to a raindrop will not be of the same sort as the angel appointed to the sun. There are a very great many different sorts of jinn and spirit beings also.
THE CONCLUSION OF THIS
FUNDAMENTAL POINT:
As may be established empirically, matter is not essential so that existence may be made subject to it, and be dependent on it. Rather, matter subsists through a meaning, and that meaning is life, it is spirit.
Also, as may be established through observation, matter is not the thing served so that everything may be ascribed to it. Rather, it is the servant; it renders service to the process of the perfection of a truth. And that truth is life. And the fundament of that truth is spirit.
Also, as is self-evident, matter is not dominant so that recourse may be made to it or perfections sought from it. Rather, it is dominated; it looks to the decree of some fundament, it is in motion in the way that that decree dictates. And that fundament is life, it is spirit, it is consciousness.
Also, as is necessary, matter is not the kernel, it is not the fundament, it is not a settled abode so that events and perfections may be affixed to it or constructed on it. Rather, it is a shell prepared to be split, rent, dissolved; it is a husk, it is froth, it is a form.
Consider the following: a creature so minute it can only be seen with a microscope has such acute senses that it can hear its friend’s voice, and see its sustenance; it has extremely sensitive and sharp senses. This demonstrates that the effects of life increase and the light of the spirit intensifies in proportion to the reducing and refining of matter. It is as though the more matter is refined and the more we become distanced from our material existences, the closer we draw to the world of the spirit, the world of life, and the world of consciousness; and the more intensely the heat of the spirit and the light of life are manifested.
Is it therefore at all possible that there should be this many distillations of life, consciousness, and spirit within this veil of materiality, and that the inner world which is beyond this veil should not be full of conscious beings and beings with spirits? Is it at all possible that the sources of these numberless distillations, flashes, and fruits of meaning, spirit, life and the truth apparent in this material existence in the Manifest World should only be ascribed to matter and the motion of matter, and be explained by it? God forbid! Absolutely not! These innumerable distillations and flashes demonstrate that this material and manifest world is but a lace veil strewn over the inner and spirit
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I just posted "the idea of hell" on the forum. you may be interested in reading it. I have never been able to except the idea of hell in christian dogma. it makes no sense to me.

Or, in so-called Christian....

There are two hell concepts. The biblical hell and the pagan myth hell.

The Bible's hell [sheol] is the biblical hell [common grave] in which Jesus believed were the dead are in a deep sleep-like state.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
This depends on which faith you speak of.
If you are referring to Christian faith, you should probably look at the way the Biblical writers defined the word rather than 1st century English translators. Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic/English define words very differently.

Let's take a look at the Greek for faith in Christ;
πίστις - (transliteration)- Pistis - trust, confidence in, or persuaded.

Nowhere in the definition have I come across the idea that it needs no proving. Maybe in the Websters definition sure, but that word isn't in the original manuscripts with that definition.

So you want definition other than Webster's?

How about 'ian' suffix...as in...
of...pertaining to ...having the characteristics of....

A Christ'ian' would then be someone who can....
walk on water, the dead come back when called, storms go away when told to, you can feed thousands of people at a moments notice with almost no provisions at hand, serious ailments vanish at your touch.

Or would you prefer the previous posting....
something about believing without proof.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
You said:

"At the end the book of life is opened. If your name isn't in it, you go to Hell. This is based on how good you are, and it is not based on how good you think you are. That makes it simple. Accepting Jesus gives you life and puts you in the book of life."

First you say it's based on how good you are then you say that accepting Jesus gets you in the book of life. The problems are twofold:

1.) Accepting Jesus does not cause one to be good.

2.) Assuming for a moment that accepting Jesus does cause one to be good, it doesn't say how good it makes you.

So, we're right back where we started. Either accepting Jesus automatically gets you in the book of life or it is based on how good you are which of course means there are different levels of goodness.

Whether or not it's human nature is irrelevant. The issue is not how difficult it is to be a good person. The issue is that a person may be every bit as good as he thinks he is, correct? So, we can then say that a person who is as good as he thinks he is (or at least is as good as is acceptable to God) can have his name put in the book of life, right? Thus it is not necessary to accept Jesus to get in the book.




First of all you have a dispensational problem. The people who are being judged are those who were not raptured but survived the holocaust and lived during the millenium and then died. I am not in that group. I am in the group that is raptured.

1. My experience is that accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior does cause a person to be good.

2. As good as God wishes because He is Lord.

King Ahaseurus of Babylon was weighed in the balance and found wanting. It would seem the criteria is more good than evil.

In the end it makes little difference. In the meantime it makes a great deal of difference. The object is not to see how much you can get away with and not be banished from life but to come into harmony with God's will. Otherwise when the evil cycle returns you will just return to your evil ways.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Since Jesus is my Lord, He decides what I am going to do. My deeds can be perceived as good or bad by people but they will be the responsibilty of Jesus.
:spit:
oh i see...a robot, one who has no control over their choices....

:areyoucra
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
That begs the question: why do I deserve to be thrown into the fire and someone else who maybe didn't do as many good deeds as I did in my lifetime deserves heaven, just because they accepted the concept of a God? What about someone who has been indoctrinated from birth to believe there is not God? It's hard to go from absolutely no faith to belief in a mystic, supernatural, unevidenced God.

It is not a question of what you deserve. You get that in life. It is a question of what you want. Do you want to go to a place where you have no choice but to be good? Jesus said that you will be found where your treasure is. If heaven is what you are seeking you will find a way to get there no matter what it takes.

There are many who have come from that state into a state of belief.

It is actually easy. A child simply accepts what he is told. Jesus says all it takes is to become like that child.
 
First of all you have a dispensational problem. The people who are being judged are those who were not raptured but survived the holocaust and lived during the millenium and then died. I am not in that group. I am in the group that is raptured.


I'm not sure what this has to do with what we're talking about.

1. My experience is that accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior does cause a person to be good.

First let me say that in my experience, it does not. And I'm speaking as one who used to be a Christian. Secondly, I've always understood Christian doctrine as saying that becoming a Christian doesn't make you good or any less prone to sin, it only means that your sins are redeemed. Third, what you're suggesting implies that once you become a Christian, you no longer have the freewill to choose to sin (or not to sin).

2. As good as God wishes because He is Lord.

Are you saying that God is the one who makes you good when you accept Jesus?

In the end it makes little difference. In the meantime it makes a great deal of difference. The object is not to see how much you can get away with and not be banished from life but to come into harmony with God's will. Otherwise when the evil cycle returns you will just return to your evil ways.
Nobody said or implied anything about getting away with anything, that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm trying to point out to you is that your arguments are somewhat contradictory.

Having said that, if God's will is for us to be as good as he wants us to be and a person is a as good as God wants him to be without accepting Jesus, what difference does it make? And, if the purpose of accepting Jesus is to make one good but a person is good without accepting Jesus, what is he getting away with?
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
First of all you have a dispensational problem. The people who are being judged are those who were not raptured but survived the holocaust and lived during the millenium and then died. I am not in that group. I am in the group that is raptured.

:biglaugh:
but of course you are...


thank you for providing comic relief... :clap
 

meddlehaze

Ambassador
So you want definition other than Webster's?

How about 'ian' suffix...as in...
of...pertaining to ...having the characteristics of....

A Christ'ian' would then be someone who can....
walk on water, the dead come back when called, storms go away when told to, you can feed thousands of people at a moments notice with almost no provisions at hand, serious ailments vanish at your touch.

Or would you prefer the previous posting....
something about believing without proof.
If you're going to combat Christianity with Western perspective of Greek words, yes. Otherwise, it's fallacious.
 
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