The Homosexuals Of Alderaan Want Your Children

Junglej25 said:

No offense, but you didn't even know that Jesus had addressed sexual immorality. You might want to at least read the Bible before you criticize others for trusting its message

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Non taken at all. To offend me you would have to literaly call names at me (and I have no reason to believe for now that you have ever intended to offend me)

It´s not so much that I didn´t know, I simply didn´t remember. Is one singleverse where it is mentioned in the most minuscule way among many other sins. If it had been adressed specificaly instead of "·in a bunch" I would believe I would have remembered it. Now, I am still not perfect and may forget, but some stuff like "lets kill the kids that disobey their parents by stoning them to dead to rid Israel from evil" are a little bit more persistent in my mind when it supposedly comes from God. A lot more than a passing mention of a completely ambiguous nature. This was very specific.

did you know that one of the most powerful sains inthe bible (many of his miracles similar to those of Jesus) that is called Ellisious once cursed 42 kids that were calling him names like "baldy" (oh the horror! ) and for that they were ALL mauled to death by two bears? Cause that´s knida more memorable and concrete. Actually, I am almost sure it was his FIRST act as a man with supernatural powers.

Did you knew those verses?

Do you know that in the bible donkeys talk?

Me Myself said:

Non taken at all. To offend me you would have to literaly call names at me (and I have no reason to believe for now that you have ever intended to offend me)

It´s not so much that I didn´t know, I simply didn´t remember. Is one singleverse where it is mentioned in the most minuscule way among many other sins. If it had been adressed specificaly instead of "·in a bunch" I would believe I would have remembered it. Now, I am still not perfect and may forget, but some stuff like "lets kill the kids that disobey their parents by stoning them to dead to rid Israel from evil" are a little bit more persistent in my mind when it supposedly comes from God. A lot more than a passing mention of a completely ambiguous nature. This was very specific.

did you know that one of the most powerful sains inthe bible (many of his miracles similar to those of Jesus) that is called Ellisious once cursed 42 kids that were calling him names like "baldy" (oh the horror! ) and for that they were ALL mauled to death by two bears? Cause that´s knida more memorable and concrete. Actually, I am almost sure it was his FIRST act as a man with supernatural powers.

Did you knew those verses?


Do you know that in the bible donkeys talk?

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I'd forgotten the name of the person but yes, I do remember the story about baldy. It's one of the many examples show why I find alot of encouragment in the OT. The OT, unlike any literature of its time, shows the flaws of the protagonists as well as their triumphs. The donkey was in the story about balam if I'm not mistaken, one of the more odd stories in the Bible.

Junglej25 said:

I'd forgotten the name of the person but yes, I do remember the story about baldy. It's one of the many examples show why I find alot of encouragment in the OT. The OT, unlike any literature of its time, shows the flaws of the protagonists as well as their triumphs. The donkey was in the story about balam if I'm not mistaken, one of the more odd stories in the Bible.

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Yehp, well, you can see I have indeed read it plenty of times. A lot of them during classs when I was a kid (most of them not in religious class though . Let´s just say Mathematics was so spiritualy refreshing! ). I had no problem understanding a lot of them as parables more than literalities because in catholicism they teach you that, so they didn´t raise my eyebrow.

Now, when I fond out people like you believe stoning children was a mandate from a God they believe to be compassionate... well, I have the cognitive knowledge that you exist and are not lying to me, but emotionaly I simple cannot disgest it, so I am still emotionally in incredulity about how a human being can have such position.

I am just so naive sometimes

Message to Junglej25: What evidence do you have that God inspired and preserved any writings about homosexuality? The supposed "general reliability" of the Bible does not necessarily imply "specific reliability" regarding a given topic. In other words, if parts of the Bible were inspired and preserved by God, that would not necessarily mean that he inspired and preserved all of the Bible.

Message to nnmartin: If you had a teenage son who was 18 years old, and he told you that he was a homosexual, how would you respond to him? What would you tell him?

If a God opposes homosexuality, it is quite odd that he forces over 1500 species of animals and birds to practice homosexuality, and forces almost all bonobo monkeys to be bi-sexual.

Agnostic75 said:

Message to Junglej25: What evidence do you have that God inspired and preserved any writings about homosexuality? The supposed "general reliability" of the Bible does not necessarily imply "specific reliability" regarding a given topic. In other words, if parts of the Bible were inspired and preserved by God, that would not necessarily mean that he inspired and preserved all of the Bible.

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Tough question to answer as I don't think I've ever heard it asked. There are certainly people who argue that certain books in the canon are not inspired, but I don't think that's what you're asking. You're suggesting its possible that certain books may only be partially inspired, correct? That certain verses in Romans might be inspired but others may not. Right?

Junglej25 said:

You're suggesting it's possible that certain.......verses in Romans might be inspired but others may not. Right?

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Yes, at least partly. I do not believe that a God inspired any of the Bible, but for the sake of argument, if he inspired and preserved parts of the Bible, what evidence do you have that he inspired and preserved the parts about homosexuality?

It is not at all difficult to add or subtract from the Bible. For example, today, it would be quite easy for some skeptics to change parts of the Bible, take the changes to some remote jungle regions of the world, and convince at least some people some of the time that they had copies of the originals.

The last chapter of the book of Revelation basically warns against adding or subtracting from the Bible. If it was not possible to add or subtract from the Bible, there would not have been any need for the warnings.

Junglej25 said:

No offense, but you didn't even know that Jesus had addressed sexual immorality. You might want to at least read the Bible before you criticize others for trusting its message

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and what criteria have you set up for yourself in order to determine the message is trust worthy?

Agnostic75 said:

Yes, at least partly. I do not believe that a God inspired any of the Bible, but for the sake of argument, if he inspired and preserved parts of the Bible, what evidence do you have that he inspired and preserved the parts about homosexuality?

It is not at all difficult to add or subtract from the Bible. For example, today, it would be quite easy for some skeptics to change parts of the Bible, take the changes to some remote jungle regions of the world, and convince at least some people some of the time that they had copies of the originals.

The last chapter of the book of Revelation basically warns against adding or subtracting from the Bible. If it was not possible to add or subtract from the Bible, there would not have been any need for the warnings.

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This I can answer. The Bible of today is most definately the same book that was originally written. There are a few small disagreements over certain verses but nothing that would have any bearing on this conversation. We can piece together the original NT by using the existing copies that history has left behind. For instance, we have actual NT fragments from within a couple generations of Jesus' supposed resurrection. There must be at least 5000 ancient fragments of the NT, from all over the ancient world. So, if somebody did add some extra lines to one copy, we would still have many other fragments that we could use to verify if it was part of the original or a later addition.

Junglej25 said:

You're suggesting it's possible that certain.......verses in Romans might be inspired but others may not. Right?

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Yes, at least partly. I do not believe that a God inspired any of the Bible, but for the sake of argument, if he inspired and preserved parts of the Bible, what evidence do you have that he inspired and preserved the parts about homosexuality?

Junglej25 said:

The Bible of today is most definitely the same book that was originally written.

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But even if you are right, today, some skeptics could easily change parts of the Bible, and convince at least a few people in remote jungle regions in the world to accept the changes.

In addition, textual preservation does not necessarily mean that a God inspired any of the Bible.

Dr. Bart Ehrman used to be a Christian. Have you read anything about him? He has written a number of books.

waitasec said:

and what criteria have you set up for yourself in order to determine the message is trust worthy?

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For one, I look at the fruit that the message produces. If everybody actually lived out the message this world would literally be Heaven.

Junglej25 said:

For one, I look at the fruit that the message produces. If everybody actually lived out the message this world would literally be Heaven.

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and what fruit is that?

Junglej25 said:

For one, I look at the fruit that the message produces. If everybody actually lived out the message this world would literally be Heaven.

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Except for the homosexuals, right? Gay people get married to people of the opposite sex, few are happy with it, and it's hardly fair to their spouses. If they remain celibate instead, they're being forced into it, not willingly choosing such a state. But the average human will not be happy celibate even if they are chaste - restraining sexuality's expression to the loving marriage that church's consider the right way.

It would be heaven for you, but not for us. That is why we encourage you to live as you like, but to stop forcing your beliefs about heaven into our civil laws. We will not stop you from chastity, just stop forcing us to be the same way.

Junglej25 said:

For one, I look at the fruit that the message produces. If everybody actually lived out the message this world would literally be Heaven.

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Really?
And whose version of "the message" would you be referring to?

waitasec said:

and what fruit is that?

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Man in harmony with his creator and each other.

Junglej25 said:

For one, I look at the fruit that the message produces. If everybody actually lived out the message this world would literally be Heaven.

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yeah...seems as though god intended everyone to remain innocent, ignorant and unaware of their actions...and all believers are to return to that state of mind...
i can see that.

Junglej25 said:

Man in harmony with his creator and each other.

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explain harmony...what you seem to be implying is that the entire orchestra is playing the same instrument...and the same note...

From the Christian perspectice, it's only a lack of faith that would cause one to worry about how they'll be satisfied. Is God so small that he can't satisfy someone with homosexual inclinations? FWIW, the most amazing experiences of deliverance, by what I believed was the hand of God, came in moments where all hope appeared to be lost


Matthew 6: 25“For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26“Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? 27“And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life? 28“And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, 29yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. 30“But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith! 31“Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ 32“For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33“But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
34“So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Drolefille said:

Except for the homosexuals, right? Gay people get married to people of the opposite sex, few are happy with it, and it's hardly fair to their spouses. If they remain celibate instead, they're being forced into it, not willingly choosing such a state. But the average human will not be happy celibate even if they are chaste - restraining sexuality's expression to the loving marriage that church's consider the right way.

It would be heaven for you, but not for us. That is why we encourage you to live as you like, but to stop forcing your beliefs about heaven into our civil laws. We will not stop you from chastity, just stop forcing us to be the same way.

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