Christians : Jesus, sins & God's law ?

heksesang · Feb 7, 2012

rusra02 said:
The Bible clearly teaches the ransom sacrifice of Jesus is the basis for forgiveness of sins. "By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness." (Ephesians 1:7)
This provision of a perfect human life was sufficient to balance the perfect life forfeited by Adam when he sinned. Romans 3:24,25 states: "[men] are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus. God set him forth as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood." (Romans 3:24,25)
A legal basis was provided for God to forgive sins through this ransom, a ransom both provided by God, and given to God. (Psalm 49:7) He did this at great cost to himself, as John 3:16 confirms.

Paying a ransom to yourself, which is effectively what God did according to you, is pointless. The concept of a ransom is for someone else to give you something you desire - if you already had that, there is no reason to require it in ransom.
Can you explain how it makes sense to pay a ransom to yourself?

Pegg · Feb 7, 2012

Pastek said:
Hi

I wanted to understand why believing that Jesus died for our sins if in the Old Testament it's written what people have to do to be forgiven by God

God said clearly :

18.20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
(Ezekiel)

18.21 But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die.
(Ezekiel)

So, if there is already a law about how to be forgiven by God, why Jesus must die ?

because no matter how hard we try, we will still fail at living by all of Gods laws.
We sin and dont even realise we've sinned. Sometimes its a slip of the tongue, or a passing thought and before we can control it, its already been and gone.

If you tried to live by the 600 odd mosaic laws, you would fail in some respect on almost all of them. Guaranteed. That is why the Israelite were always offering sacrifices on a daily basis. None of them (not even Moses) lived perfectly by that law code.

Through the prophet Ezekiel, God is telling us that if we were living perfectly by his laws, we would not die....and thats the truth. So the fact that we do die is a strong indication that noone is living perfectly by Gods laws and standards.
And this answers your next question:

Pastek said:
If everyone is responsable, then why Jesus must be responsable for us ?
All the christians believe that Jesus died for our sins ?

Death is the legal payment for sins. Each of us sins, so we each have to make the legal payment (like a fine) to God. Our life is that legal payment and we can each only pay for our own sins.

That is why God sent a perfect sinless man into the world. As a perfect sinless man, Jesus did not have to pay the legal payment for sin. He never did sin, so he did not ever have to die. But he chose to do so in exchange for us. He in effect paid our debt himself.

For that reason God forgives the sins of mankind and gives us all the hope of everlasting life.

rusra02 · Feb 7, 2012

heksesang said:
Paying a ransom to yourself, which is effectively what God did according to you, is pointless. The concept of a ransom is for someone else to give you something you desire - if you already had that, there is no reason to require it in ransom.
Can you explain how it makes sense to pay a ransom to yourself?

We come to know Jehovah better by understanding why a ransom was needed. Being holy, Jehovah could not just overlook sin; not Adam's sin nor the sins committed since then. He is the God of perfect justice, and always acts justly. To ignore or forgive sin without a proper legal basis would have been unjust. Justice demands that the "wages of sin" be paid (Romans 6:23) A murderer could not be excused, but "you must give soul for soul." (Exodus 21:23) A judge who frees a murderer would not be just.
God keeps to his own standards of justice, and therefore the price for Adam's sin needed to be paid. So the ransom is not a physical exchange but a legal transaction. By providing the legal means to forgive sin, the ransom, Jehovah displayed both his surpassing love and his superlative justice, his steadfast adherence to righteous principles. (Romans 5:8) The Bible explains that God provided the ransom "in order to exhibit his own righteousness,...that [God] might be righteous even when declaring righteous the man that has faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:24-26)

heksesang · Feb 7, 2012

rusra02 said:
We come to know Jehovah better by understanding why a ransom was needed. Being holy, Jehovah could not just overlook sin; not Adam's sin nor the sins committed since then. He is the God of perfect justice, and always acts justly. To ignore or forgive sin without a proper legal basis would have been unjust. Justice demands that the "wages of sin" be paid (Romans 6:23) A murderer could not be excused, but "you must give soul for soul." (Exodus 21:23) A judge who frees a murderer would not be just.
God keeps to his own standards of justice, and therefore the price for Adam's sin needed to be paid. So the ransom is not a physical exchange but a legal transaction. By providing the legal means to forgive sin, the ransom, Jehovah displayed both his surpassing love and his superlative justice, his steadfast adherence to righteous principles. (Romans 5:8) The Bible explains that God provided the ransom "in order to exhibit his own righteousness,...that [God] might be righteous even when declaring righteous the man that has faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:24-26)

Is it just for the judge (God) to give the accused (the humans) the means to buy himself out (Jesus) of his crime? And if you in today's legal system judged an innocent man, would that free other prisoners from their sentence? Would it have been just if it worked like that?
And you talk about Adam's sin... But as you can see in Ezekiel 18:20, we are in no way responsible for Adam's sin. The child does not inherit the guilt of his ancestor.

rusra02 · Feb 7, 2012

heksesang said:
Is it just for the judge (God) to give the accused (the humans) the means to buy himself out (Jesus) of his crime? And if you in today's legal system judged an innocent man, would that free other prisoners from their sentence? Would it have been just if it worked like that?
And you talk about Adam's sin... But as you can see in Ezekiel 18:20, we are in no way responsible for Adam's sin. The child does not inherit the guilt of his ancestor.

God's provision of the ransom is not a "get out of jail free" card. To benefit from the ransom, one must accept it in faith and thereafter live a life in harmony with God's will. (John 3:16, 1 Peter 4:1,2) Since we are bought with a price, we do not belong to ourselves, but become slaves of God. (1 Corinthians 6:19,20)
I agree we are not responsible for Adam's sin. But we are affected by it, since Adam bore children only after his sin. Not being perfect, he passed on only what he now was, sinful and imperfect. As the Bible states: "Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." Verse 14 adds "Death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam."
Since the original (Adam) was now sinful and condemned to death, all the copies produced from the original were likewise damaged and condemned to death.
Ezekiel 18:20 talks about personal accountability. Thus a man who commits a murder would suffer the penalty for murder and be executed, while his relatives would not (although they would most likely suffer effects from the murderer's punishment, they themselves would not be punished for the murder.)

heksesang · Feb 8, 2012

rusra02 said:
God's provision of the ransom is not a "get out of jail free" card. To benefit from the ransom, one must accept it in faith and thereafter live a life in harmony with God's will. (John 3:16, 1 Peter 4:1,2) Since we are bought with a price, we do not belong to ourselves, but become slaves of God. (1 Corinthians 6:19,20)

Well, if we, for this discussion, assume Paul's epistles represent Paul's perspective of things, and rather look at the Old Testament and the Gospels which are the records of the prophecies and the actual words of Jesus and his contemporaries:

1) John 3:16 only states that those who believe in him will have eternal life - that could mean that those who believes his message and teachings will receive eternal life and not that those who believe he died for our sins receive eternal life.

2) Isaiah and John said that he "will bear the sin of many" (Isaiah 53) or "will take away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). To bear can mean to take away, as you can see is just how John understood it. As a prophet of God, he'd have the same message as Isaiah, and as such we can assume that is indeed right about his understanding given by God. Now, the interesting part is that to take away sins doesn't have an unanimous meaning of "pay for sins". What if this simply refers to actual removal of sin and not the payment of sin?

Wasn't the Holy Spirit sent just for the purpose of guiding us so we would be able to do the right choices (John 16:7-8)? And didn't Jesus make it clear that the Holy Spirit could not come to us before his death and ascension? As such, you can read it as "Jesus had to die, so the Holy Spirit could come and lead us away from sin", which ultimately means Jesus DID die to take sin away, without it being a payment of any sort.

This view also fits with the verses of OT which say that turning away from the sins will be enough for God to dismiss them as if they had never happened (Ezekiel 18:21-23, 33:14-16).

Now, what do you think of this?

rusra02 · Feb 8, 2012

heksesang said:
Well, if we, for this discussion, assume Paul's epistles represent Paul's perspective of things, and rather look at the Old Testament and the Gospels which are the records of the prophecies and the actual words of Jesus and his contemporaries:

1) John 3:16 only states that those who believe in him will have eternal life - that could mean that those who believes his message and teachings will receive eternal life and not that those who believe he died for our sins receive eternal life.

2) Isaiah and John said that he "will bear the sin of many" (Isaiah 53) or "will take away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). To bear can mean to take away, as you can see is just how John understood it. As a prophet of God, he'd have the same message as Isaiah, and as such we can assume that is indeed right about his understanding given by God. Now, the interesting part is that to take away sins doesn't have an unanimous meaning of "pay for sins". What if this simply refers to actual removal of sin and not the payment of sin?

Wasn't the Holy Spirit sent just for the purpose of guiding us so we would be able to do the right choices (John 16:7-8)? And didn't Jesus make it clear that the Holy Spirit could not come to us before his death and ascension? As such, you can read it as "Jesus had to die, so the Holy Spirit could come and lead us away from sin", which ultimately means Jesus DID die to take sin away, without it being a payment of any sort.

This view also fits with the verses of OT which say that turning away from the sins will be enough for God to dismiss them as if they had never happened (Ezekiel 18:21-23, 33:14-16).

Now, what do you think of this?

I can only refer you once again to the scriptures that clearly teach Jesus role as ransomer. (Matthew 20:28, 1 Timothy 2:5,6, 1 Peter 1:18,19 among many others.)
The ransom is a central teaching of the Bible, and necessary for our salvation. John the Baptizer called Jesus the "Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world", an obvious reference to his sacrificial mission. (John 1:29, Revelation 5:6-10)

heksesang · Feb 8, 2012

rusra02 said:
I can only refer you once again to the scriptures that clearly teach Jesus role as ransomer. (Matthew 20:28, 1 Timothy 2:5,6, 1 Peter 1:18,19 among many others.)
The ransom is a central teaching of the Bible, and necessary for our salvation. John the Baptizer called Jesus the "Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world", an obvious reference to his sacrificial mission. (John 1:29, Revelation 5:6-10)

IF his sacrifice was a payment for the sins, it would not take away the sins. The sin is still there even if it is paid for. That is obvious, is it not? But if the sin does not occur anymore, then the sin is indeed taken away (this you can see in the Ezekiel verses I cited in the previous post). This is what would happen when the Holy Spirit was sent to guide us, which might have been the purpose of Jesus' death.

Jesus said that he had to die for the Holy Spirit to be sent, so his death was a ransom for releasing the Holy Spirit upon us, which is the Spirit that leads us away from sin.

Now, why is your understanding more correct than this one? Can you please try to actually look at my points, or else there is no discussion?

rusra02 · Feb 8, 2012

heksesang said:
IF his sacrifice was a payment for the sins, it would not take away the sins. The sin is still there even if it is paid for. That is obvious, is it not? But if the sin does not occur anymore, then the sin is indeed taken away (this you can see in the Ezekiel verses I cited in the previous post). This is what would happen when the Holy Spirit was sent to guide us, which might have been the purpose of Jesus' death.

Jesus said that he had to die for the Holy Spirit to be sent, so his death was a ransom for releasing the Holy Spirit upon us, which is the Spirit that leads us away from sin.

Now, why is your understanding more correct than this one? Can you please try to actually look at my points, or else there is no discussion?

I think we may be just saying things a little differently.

Christ takes away the sin of the world by providing a legal basis for God to forgive sins. When we sin, "we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ...he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins." (1 John 2:1,2) "If we confess our sins, [God] is faithful and righteous so as to forgive us our sins." (1 John 1:9) God can apply the ransom sacrifice of Christ in our behalf and forgive us.
Jesus ransom is to provide a perfect equivalent to the perfect man Adam. By sacrificing his perfect human life, Jesus paid the price necessary to release us from bondage to sin and death. His death provided a "corresponding ransom" (1 Timothy 2:6) Thus, Christ is called "The last Adam" at 1 Corinthians 15:45)
Because he presented the value of his sacrifice to God, God could accept still sinful humans as his spiritual children, pouring our his holy spirit on them. So it was necessary for Christ to die before the holy spirit could be poured out, as you said.

Pegg · Feb 8, 2012

heksesang said:
Jesus said that he had to die for the Holy Spirit to be sent, so his death was a ransom for releasing the Holy Spirit upon us, which is the Spirit that leads us away from sin.

Now, why is your understanding more correct than this one? Can you please try to actually look at my points, or else there is no discussion?

the scriptures show that people who lived before Jesus died also had holy spirit upon them....so your idea is not in harmony with the facts.

Isaiah 61:61 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, for the reason that Jehovah has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones

Deut 34:9 And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hand upon him; and the sons of Israel began to listen to him

Judges 3:9-10 Then Jehovah raised a savior up for the sons of Israel that he might save them, Oth′ni·el the son of Ke′naz, the younger brother of Ca′leb. 10 The spirit of Jehovah now came upon him, and he became the judge of Israel

Judges 6:34 And Jehovahs spirit enveloped Gid′e·on so that he went blowing the horn

Judges 11:29 Jehovahs spirit now came upon Jeph′thah

judges 14:5 Accordingly Samson went on down ... 6 Then Jehovahs spirit became operative upon him, so that he tore it in two, just as someone tears a male kid in two, and there was nothing at all in his hand.

1 Samuel 11:6 And the spirit of God became operative upon Saul

heksesang · Feb 9, 2012

rusra02 said:
I think we may be just saying things a little differently.

Christ takes away the sin of the world by providing a legal basis for God to forgive sins. When we sin, "we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ...he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins." (1 John 2:1,2) "If we confess our sins, [God] is faithful and righteous so as to forgive us our sins." (1 John 1:9) God can apply the ransom sacrifice of Christ in our behalf and forgive us.
Jesus ransom is to provide a perfect equivalent to the perfect man Adam. By sacrificing his perfect human life, Jesus paid the price necessary to release us from bondage to sin and death. His death provided a "corresponding ransom" (1 Timothy 2:6) Thus, Christ is called "The last Adam" at 1 Corinthians 15:45)
Because he presented the value of his sacrifice to God, God could accept still sinful humans as his spiritual children, pouring our his holy spirit on them. So it was necessary for Christ to die before the holy spirit could be poured out, as you said.

We're not just saying it differently.. What I am saying is that God did not require any payment for forgiving sin, he just required us to turn away from sin. Hence no one had to pay anything, but someone had to send a helper for us. That's the Holy Spirit. He poured it out so we could become accepted, not because we already were accepted.

Pegg said:
the scriptures show that people who lived before Jesus died also had holy spirit upon them....so your idea is not in harmony with the facts.

Isaiah 61:61 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, for the reason that Jehovah has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones

Deut 34:9 And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hand upon him; and the sons of Israel began to listen to him

Judges 3:9-10 Then Jehovah raised a savior up for the sons of Israel that he might save them, Oth′ni·el the son of Ke′naz, the younger brother of Ca′leb. 10 The spirit of Jehovah now came upon him, and he became the judge of Israel

Judges 6:34 And Jehovahs spirit enveloped Gid′e·on so that he went blowing the horn

Judges 11:29 Jehovahs spirit now came upon Jeph′thah

judges 14:5 Accordingly Samson went on down ... 6 Then Jehovahs spirit became operative upon him, so that he tore it in two, just as someone tears a male kid in two, and there was nothing at all in his hand.

1 Samuel 11:6 And the spirit of God became operative upon Saul

These were the prophets. They were annointed people, chosen by God. But it is also written that the Holy Spirit should come upon all your sons and daughters in the future (I don't recall exactly where it says this, though), i.e. all of humanity and not just the prophets, that's what happened when Jesus sent the Holy Spirit.

Pegg · Feb 9, 2012

heksesang said:
These were the prophets. They were annointed people, chosen by God. But it is also written that the Holy Spirit should come upon all your sons and daughters in the future (I don't recall exactly where it says this, though), i.e. all of humanity and not just the prophets, that's what happened when Jesus sent the Holy Spirit.

the whole nation of Isreal were chosen and annointed by God.
Exodus 19:6 And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you are to say to the sons of Israel.

Deuteronomy 7:6 For you are a holy people to Jehovah your God. It is you Jehovah your God has chosen to become his people, a special property, out of all the peoples that are on the surface of the ground.

Gods holy spirit was upon the entire nation...not only prophets or priests. God has been giving his spirit to people since the beginning of mans history.

heksesang · Feb 10, 2012

Pegg said:
the whole nation of Isreal were chosen and annointed by God.
Exodus 19:6 And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you are to say to the sons of Israel.

Deuteronomy 7:6 For you are a holy people to Jehovah your God. It is you Jehovah your God has chosen to become his people, a special property, out of all the peoples that are on the surface of the ground.

Gods holy spirit was upon the entire nation...not only prophets or priests. God has been giving his spirit to people since the beginning of mans history.

Why would Jesus need to send the Holy Spirit if it had been upon all of humanity since the dawn of time? And what you are quoting doesn't really say that all Israelites were annointed by God.

Pegg · Feb 10, 2012

heksesang said:
Why would Jesus need to send the Holy Spirit if it had been upon all of humanity since the dawn of time? And what you are quoting doesn't really say that all Israelites were annointed by God.

there was a specific purpose Jesus mentioned in John 14:26 "but the helper, the holy spirit, which the father will send in my name, that one will teach you and bring back to your minds all the things I told you"

The apostles had to continue to teach the congregations...and they were basing their teachings off the teachings of Christ whcih were never put down in writing. Instead, Jesus promised that the holy spirit would be sent so that the apostles would be able to remember his teachings and pass them onto others. So the purpose was specific....it was for teaching Jesus message.

Christians : Jesus, sins & God's law ?

heksesang

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