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Do you believe that the flood actually happened

Popeyesays said:
Sorry for the imprecise pronoun: as the author of Genesis described it.
Ah. :) Now my question is: on what grounds would one believe that Genesis was "true from [the main character, Noah's] perspective" but that the Odyssey, Gilgamesh, or Beowulf were not?
 

AtheistAJ

Member
I don't know if this was mentioned, but as the Bible says god promised to Noah that he would never flood the world again by creating the rainbow. As everyone should know rainbow is just photons spread out into spectrum of colors and diverted to the eye of the observer by water droplets, I would say that's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

Also the Grand-Canyon example supports it wasn't formed by any flood but by plates separating, and there are even bigger canyons on Mars.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Mr Spinkles said:
Ah. :) Now my question is: on what grounds would one believe that Genesis was "true from [the main character, Noah's] perspective" but that the Odyssey, Gilgamesh, or Beowulf were not?
Well, I would not consider any of them to be unbased in fact. The Illiad is soundly based in historic fact, you can read the correspondence of other kings at the time to see references to the war. The Odyssey is another kettle of fish, it is more "heroic", in an individual sense, and certainly the details of the voyage of Odysseus cannot be confirmed in other sources.

Beowulf in its original form without the Christian overlay is an historical piece of "fiction". But I think the actual story was Hollywoodized by the traditions.

Gilgamesh is probably the same flood in a historical sense as the flood of Noah. Told from a different perspective.

Only Gilgamesh is another religious story though. The "gods" are not a real part of the history of the events in the Illiad and Beowulf, at most they are observers.
Gilgamesh and Enki may well be the story of Cain and Abel for that matter from another perspective.

Regards,
Scott
 

seeking_him13

New Member
ThisShouldMakeSense said:
Do you believe that the flood as described in the bible actually happened? Or was it as some believe a more localised flood, rather than global. or do you beleive that it's just a myth and may never have happened at all?
I believe it did. You know the frozen mamoth that they found with leaves that were green in its mouth. Well there was a scientist who said that the earth opened up and water shot out of it and fell back down along with the rain. Well after it had gone so much into the atmosphere it froze and when it fell back down instantly froze what it touched. This makes since though I am quoting this on memory.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Hi seeking_him13,

As I notice this is one of your first posts on the forum, I thought I would take the opportunity to welcome you aboard;

you might like to post an introduction of yourself on :
Are you new to ReligiousForums.com?

And also have a look at Feather's article with links for our newer members.

Hey, have fun, and I look forward to seeing your posts.;)
 


Was the Great Flood, only a localized legend?

Apparently not. Although the Bible and The Epic of Gilgamesh incorporate two independent accounts of the same event, they have enough inconsistencies to suggest that both stories might have originated from one single kernel of historical truth. Scientists know that only a few feet of snow or a few days of rain can destroy a city. In Johnstown, Pennsylvania, after only two days of rain, the Potomoc River rose forty-six feet, killing twenty-five people. What would have happen if it had rained for forty days and forty nights as the Biblical deluge had? When rivers burst their banks or tidal waves sweep onto land, there is the power of flood.

The Bible said that "all the fountains of the great deep were broken up and the windows of heaven were opened. All the high hills that were under the whole heaven were covered." It said the waters prevailed fifteen cubits upwards, raining forty days and nights. At a depth of fifteen cubits, the highest mountains on earth would have been covered with more than twenty feet of water. It took more than a year for the waters to subside. Biblical scholars have estimated that the deluge would have killed one billion humans and thirty-five trillion animals.

And they say that it is exactly what God intended---to erase a wicked, violent world.

In studying the Genesis Flood legend, scholars discovered it was not simply the study of one local tradition. Every continent told the same amazing story of an ancient flood. Even the evolutionary scientists were puzzled by this consistency. How could Australia and South America have the same legend as Mesopotamia?

In India, for instance, the legend said a fish told a man to build himself a boat, and when the flood receded, the man found himself on top of a mountain. The African legend told of a rainmaker causing a great flood to destroy the wicked people. Some Native American tribes have an origin myth about a great snow that melted and caused a great flood to cover all the trees and Rocky Mountains; the animals were all saved because a man put them in his canoe.

Clearly, if anyone was going to find the Great Flood of the Bible, scientists would have to search for a source of water that could have flooded the entire planet, not just selected portions of it. They found it in melting ice.

As the geologists explained it, the earth's axis had shifted many times, most recently between about 8,000 and 15,000 years ago. The obvious consequence of such an action would have been a dramatic change in atmospheric conditions. The polar ice caps, suddenly transposed to the temperate belt, would melt, and the level of the oceans would rise accordingly. Volcanoes would erupt, suddenly filling the skies with ash. This protective canopy of vapor would react like a greenhouse ,and the resultant condensation would cause torrential downpours. The entire earth would be exposed to the full fury of waters above and below the earth...just as recorded in the Bible.

The scientists estimated that when the last ice age melted, the oceans rose 300 feet. They have also theorized that this could have happened very rapidly and was the basis for Noah's Flood. And they cite effects on North America from the melting polar ice to prove the global flood theory.

When the ice cap had thinned out considerably, it seemed to have collapsed and produced a giant flood down the Mississippi Valley. It also created giant floods in the western United States. According to Dr. Henry Morris, an expert in geology and the flow of water, and the founder of the Institute of Creation Research at San Diego, California, the earth's crust, from both above and below, was eroded, transported, and re-deposited. It was destroyed in its original form and a new world emerged after the flood.

Dr. Morris reports that wherever one looks all over the world---in the mountains, the valleys---there is evidence of a flood. The entire geological column speaks of catastrophic, hydraulic burial, and this is a flood. He points to the Grand Canyon as one dramatic example of rocks telling the story of flood. Not only in the Grand Canyon, but all over the earth, sedimentary rocks are found in great thicknesses. Further, there is no worldwide time gap or deformity deposited in the sediments, indicating the existence of one single world-wide event...the Flood. As the floodwaters receded, the canyons were quickly carved in the soft sediments. The present Colorado River just simply does not have enough energy in it. There is not enough energy in the dynamics of the water to cut that Canyon even in a trillion years. In other words, the only way you can have that Canyon is for there to have been soft sediments and a tremendously greater quantity of water than there is now, which started as a large mud crack or opening in the uplifted soft sediments. The whole Colorado plateau area, and that Canyon going through it, really speak of catastrophism and not of uniform materialism.

The fossil record also shows a universal global flood. Worldwide fossils of animals and fish have been found buried in swimming positions---suddenly and catastrophically preserved in a moment of time. Rhinos, zebras, and hippos have been found buried in volcanic ash in Nebraska in swimming positions. The Beresovka River mammoth of Siberia was discovered half-kneeling, half-standing with buttercups in its mouth. In Scotland, tons of fish have been found in positions of terror with their fins extended and eyes bulging. Another fossil graveyard in Germany shows a mixture of plants and insects from all climatic zones. When these kinds of fossils are found together, it is usually indicative of global flooding and rapid burial.

Other independent geologists have found evidence of the Great Flood, too. One geologist went to Mt. Ararat four times searching for Noah's Ark, and confirmed that the mountain was once covered with water. Finding great volumes of salt at 14,000 feet, he determined that the water level had to have been much higher than 14,000 feet. Furthermore, at 13,000 feet he found conglomerate rock, which he said was rounded and formed under water. He also found pillar lava all up and down the mountain. Pillar lava is a unique formation that occurs only when molten lava emerges from the earth below water and is quickly frozen. This alone indicates that it was once under water. He could, of course, have been off by a million years, if it weren't for the folklore legends of the Great Flood.

In the early 1970's, by measuring oxygen isotopes in the mud of the Gulf of Mexico, a professor of geology at the University of Miami discovered that almost 12,000 years ago, fresh cold melt water suddenly flowed across North America into the Gulf. Professor Cesare Emiliani further reported that a sea level rise in the Gulf would have created a catastrophic effect on the entire world's oceans. He estimated the peak flooding down the Mississippi Valley during the ice melt to be ten, perhaps twenty, times larger than peak flooding during any historical times.

Emiliani's theory was confirmed when Florida scuba divers found human skeletons in a cave dwelling under water. Warm Mineral Springs, a popular health spa, contains a 250-foot deep sinkhole. In this sinkhole, divers stumbled upon an ancient community, proving that it was at one time dry. Sonny Cockrell, a Florida state underwater archeologist, found an 11,000-year-old human skull perfectly preserved by the oxygen-free mineral water. His discovery offered a possibility that the Indian was a witness to the rising of the oceans at the end of the ice age.

Geologists now believe the collapse of the ice cap was, in some places, devastating. When glacial Lake Missoula broke through a huge ice dam, parts of Washington, Oregon, Idaho, and Montana were scoured by a 1,000-foot high wall of water in a single day. Was this Noah's flood? Possibly, but the experts really don't know.

There are some who theorize that Noah's Flood preceded the melting of the ice cap. They point out that at times there was a lot more ocean water on land because the capacity of the ocean basin was smaller. Putting more water into the system during those times would definitely create a "great flood." In fact, Northern Europe was flooded about thirty million years ago, and Italy didn't even exist---it came out of the ocean relatively recently. Any kind of additional water, therefore, becomes suspect for a universal flood. But was it Noah's Flood?

It is said that if Noah's Ark were found tomorrow, believers would say, "We told you so," and skeptics would still doubt. There is a curious coincidence, though. The collapse of the ice cap, the flooding of the Florida Indian caves, and Plato's story of the sinking of Atlantis all have the same date...approximately 11,000 years ago. Although the scientists are divided, they do agree on one fact: through 200 generations of folklore and legend, mankind has retained the memory of a prehistoric, universal flood


It is also worthy to note that the geonology of all peoples on earth can be traced back to just three persons Japheth- Aryan branch of speech - Indo- European (14 families) Ham- Hamitic Branch of speech - Afro-Asiatic (30 families) and Shem - Semitic - branch of speech - Asiatic (26 families).

These were the sons of Noah.

It is interesting also that the ancient chinese character for 'ship' is derived from eight persons in a vessel. Vessel + eight + mouth (persons).

So what say you fellow forumers?

To me the account of the flood is far more than a story. Jesus Christ indicated it had prophetic significance. in his prophesy about "the conclusion of the system of things", he made reference to "the days of Noah". He pointed to the flood as a warning example of a greater distruction to come "during the presence of the son of man". Mathew 24:3, 37-39
 
New world translation of the holy scriptures - Gen 7:19 And the waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains under the heavens came to be covered. 20. Up to fifteen cubits the waters overwhelmed them and the mountains became covered.

Basically the waters covered the highest mountains by 15 cubits. Now the waters fell from the skys for forty days but god also allowed "the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the flood gates of the heavens were opened"Gen, 7:11 two things happened here 1) it rained 2) something castastrophic happened within the depths of the oceans which would mean massive tidal waves and other catastrophic watery events. Gen, 7:24 And the waters continued overwhelming the earth a hundred and fifty days.
The bible does not stipulate whether the water was frozen either, it mentions water but not in what form it came.

Now two small events in the world ( I say small because on a global scale these events are small by comparison ) the indonisian tsunami and New orleans, how long are the waters expected to be around in these places? And how many were wiped out? I can't see it happening that in 500 years from now their will be talk of a global flood just because these two tragedies happened. And why is it that everytime a catastrophy has happened in the world over the period of the earth history no other localised flood has been reported as a global flood?

Where did all the water go? straight back to where it came from and possibly changing the land surface of the earth as it receded. The earth is covered by 70 percent water 30 percent land mass then you have clouds that hold a massive proportion of water. It's not excactly a stretch of brain cells to work out the mathmatics.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Deep_MindQuest said:



Where did all the water go? straight back to where it came from and possibly changing the land surface of the earth as it receded. The earth is covered by 70 percent water 30 percent land mass then you have clouds that hold a massive proportion of water. It's not excactly a stretch of brain cells to work out the mathmatics.
I'd be interested to see the math, why not go ahead and do it for us?

Regards,
Scott
 
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