The Trinity

URAVIP2ME said:

Yes, according to Psalm 90v2 God is from everlasting meaning No beginning.
Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
What does Revelation [3v14 B] say about Jesus ?
Jesus was Not 'with' God before the beginning. Rather at the beginning.

Yes Jesus is never God as Eternal Father because Jesus becomes eternal or everlasting father [Isaiah 9v6] because Jesus is given the keys to unlock the grave [Rev 1v8]. That means because Jesus resurrects Jesus becomes 'life giver' [father] to the resurrected dead gaining everlasting life thru Jesus.

Click to expand...

Agree As in Genesis re: role of the Eternal Son Logos[Word]; -this universe-Gen.."for nothing was made but by Him"=Eternal Son, the Creator/Father of this Universe-that is what makes this Earth unique- An Eternal Son became "Emmanuel" "He who walks among us"- in the Flesh-To Be A Creator who more fully knows the Human condition through personified experience.
We often overlook this seemingly humble yet powerful tenet of Christianity. It is a cornerstone a foundation within the Bible where Truth survived through the many translations and revisions. Truth will out.

God the All in ALL of the multi-verse includes us among the many mansions Jesus declared He has prepared for us.
To me as an inclusive eclectic thinker, these many mansions may well represent other denominations. I say this as all people have heard some form of the golden rule from within their own cultural paradigms, norms and more's. i.e.,-all organized religions mainstream have some version of the Golden Rule. This answers directly questions regarding the Eternal Spirit Status of other religious adherents, also other devout believers in 'Other' an Entity besides the human mind; human ego.

All those within and without a denomination who strive to live by the Golden rule as opposed to living in iniquity-are all embraced within God. Many Mansions-many cultural paths=all valid. As Jesus also taught-it what is in your heart you will be judged by..be not like those Pharisees who think by their many prayers and longer phylacteries they are guaranteed entrance into the kingdom of God. Verily I say to you, I do not know them..

As God declared in Ezekiel:All Souls are mine! Therefore-they are-rock on!

Yes, all the souls are God's, and as Acts [3v23] mentions there are souls that will be destroyed. According to Psalm [78v50] there are souls that are Not spared from death.

And as 1st Cor. [15v28] says even Jesus will subject himself to God....so that God, not Jesus, will be all in all. In all things even Jesus will be subject to his God.- Rev 3vs5,12.

Did Jesus prepare heavenly abodes [mansions] for all?
Jesus 'brothers' of Matthew [25v40; 1st Cor 15v50] have a heavenly reward of serving with Jesus. [Rev 20v6; 14v4; 5vs9,10] They are part of the first or earlier resurrection.

On the other hand, the 'sheep' of Matthew [25v32] are Not Jesus 'brothers' of verse 40,
and they not offered a heavenly home because they are in no need of a resurrection because they are alive and living on earth at the start of Jesus messianic 1000-year reign over earth. They can remain alive and keep on living on earth to gain everlasting life on earth as was originally offered to Adam if obedient.

The dead not called to heaven, such as those that never heard of Jesus, will at that time have an earthly resurrection like the prophet Daniel looked forward. [Daniel 12vs2,13]

Lawrence said:

You mean some historical artifacts, age of a particular fossil traced through carbon dating or substances that can be traced in a particular object are just products of fairy tales/ made up stories?

Click to expand...

The artifacts are real but the stories about them are made up. I could give them the benefit of the doubt and say that the gueses are educated but the reality is that it is still guesswork.

outhouse said:

Thanks for the vid bump.

now when you discount the vid you will have to be specific because there are parts not up for debate and no historian or scholar will discount it.

has little to do with archeologist and their findings.

I understand why you dont like valid history and I wish it was different but its not.

Click to expand...

I don't have a problem with valid history but I do have a problem with scientific mythology.

I think this comes under the heading of numbers defining truth.

outhouse said:

can you say the opposite because you were?

Click to expand...

Not exactly. So I accept what is written at face value unless there is a solid proof to the contrary.

FreeTHinker4eva said:

God as the All in All-no beginning, no end, always was, always will be...And the Word was with God ...Christ as Eternal Son always with God as always come out from God-yet Jesus is never God as Eternal Father.-These concepts encompass some of our highest human truths[thus far] regarding Divinity, Divine Love, matters of Spiritual Truth[Holy Spirit].

Interesting, I first learned of Trinity Doctrine as a child yet the effect on me was the opposite of yours-I intuitively worshiped God, spoke/communed with Jesus, receive discernment from the Holy Spirit of Truth.

I grasped the Trinity concept this way: I know myself as [I Am] Mother, Daughter, Sister, Aunt, Children's Advocate. To each of these roles I am fully incarnate as that Title. As Mother my children will always see me through the perception, the experiences of me as their mother. Same for Daughter I am always my mother's child, my father's daughter they see me in this way only.

Same with Profession unless I tell them otherwise they do not see me as a mother or a sister or an Aunt, They understand I am these also, they believe this about me too, yet their only experience of me is that of me as their Children's Advocate.. Fully present as all of me to all of them- yet in truth I am more than the sum of my roles to each of these persons. AS is God-how much more so-(infinity times 1!)= [inside joke].

I am more than a mother sister, etc., I am also m-e quite apart from these personages if you will. Yet no-one argues against my existence as any of these roles, as standing before them as all of these within one.

After this manner then, is God the All in ALL as fully incarnate in Christ as The Son-Eternally-God and Eternal Son, also as Holy Spirit, yet monotheistic right in front of me and also in concept.
To each entity God is How they see God, yet God is also more than the sum of these personages beliefs, existence(s).
We are all more than the sum of our 'parts'. Including God :candle:.

Click to expand...

I was accused of the Sabellian Heresy of believing that the members of the Trinity are God playing roles. Although there is some truth to the concept the analogy brakes down when considering the Trinity because the nature of God is not physical but spiritual.

No doubt the term "Father" consists of the role God played throughout the OT. The term "Son" refers to the physical role that God is playing in the Gospels and the term "Paraclete" is the role that God is playing in those who have made Him Lord of their lives.

Muffled said:

I was accused of the Sabellian Heresy of believing that the members of the Trinity are God playing roles. Although there is some truth to the concept the analogy brakes down when considering the Trinity because the nature of God is not physical but spiritual.

No doubt the term "Father" consists of the role God played throughout the OT. The term "Son" refers to the physical role that God is playing in the Gospels and the term "Paraclete" is the role that God is playing in those who have made Him Lord of their lives.

Click to expand...

The son refers to the second person of the Trinity, the Word. It existed even before incarnating.

internationalist said:

The son refers to the second person of the Trinity, the Word. It existed even before incarnating.

Click to expand...

How do you explain Revelation 3v14 B that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God ?

According to Psalm 90v2 only God existed before the beginning.
Jesus did not exist before the beginning as God existed before the beginning.

Isn't Jesus, according to Colossians 1vs15,16, the firstborn of every creation?
God is Not firstborn anywhere because God is UN-created being the Creator.
[Psalm 89v27; John 17v5]
Through God's heavenly firstborn all things were created because as firstborn there was nothing yet created in existence heavenly or earthly.

URAVIP2ME said:

How do you explain Revelation 3v14 B that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God ?

According to Psalm 90v2 only God existed before the beginning.
Jesus did not exist before the beginning as God existed before the beginning.

Isn't Jesus, according to Colossians 1vs15,16, the firstborn of every creation?
God is Not firstborn anywhere because God is UN-created being the Creator.
[Psalm 89v27; John 17v5]
Through God's heavenly firstborn all things were created because as firstborn there was nothing yet created in existence heavenly or earthly.

Click to expand...

You're confusing the incarnation with trinity.

I'm an Arian!

internationalist said:

The son refers to the second person of the Trinity, the Word. It existed even before incarnating.

Click to expand...

In that case you have two gods and have broken the first commandment. or three!

Gaura Priya said:

I'm an Arian!

Click to expand...

The Arian concept of Christ is that the Son of God did not always exist, but was created by—and is therefore distinct from—God the Father. This belief is grounded in the Gospel of John passage “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (verse 14:28)

From Wikipedia

This also means that Arians deny the divinity of Jesus. They see him as a separate entity as much as Trinitarians do. However the truth is that the Spirit of God is incarnate in Jesus. It is true that the body is created but the Spirit is not. It is true that The Spirit of God incarnated in a body is not as great as the Spirit of God thoughout the universe.

I would agree that there is a distinction between Jesus and the Father but that distinction is the body.

Muffled said:

Not exactly. So I accept what is written at face value unless there is a solid proof to the contrary.

Click to expand...

so you follow blind faith over knowledge?

Muffled said:

I was accused of the Sabellian Heresy of believing that the members of the Trinity are God playing roles. Although there is some truth to the concept the analogy brakes down when considering the Trinity because the nature of God is not physical but spiritual.

No doubt the term "Father" consists of the role God played throughout the OT. The term "Son" refers to the physical role that God is playing in the Gospels and the term "Paraclete" is the role that God is playing in those who have made Him Lord of their lives.

Click to expand...

This isn't God playing roles like girls and boys play dress-up, LOL. The WORD was WITH GOD. The Eternal Son came out from God-with God- the immediate result/consequence of this event was the Holy Spirit<-culmination of the Two as Truth as purposive energy. That is how it was and is done. We are still evolving and only have the resources at our disposal that demonstrate the Spiritual levels of our highest relative truths; of relative human/spirit concept grasp. Simply because we cannot explain the matters of Spirit with the tools of Science[wrong tools for the job-to an extent--yet one can explain Science using the tools of the Spirit. apply princlples of energy of electricity properties of such including light and yes even quarks...all miracles even so when we become spiritually evolved enough to explain new phenomena.

I personally don't believe followers of The Way will require churches-a true ministry of service to God through the constructs of humanity.

Muffled said:

The Arian concept of Christ is that the Son of God did not always exist, but was created by—and is therefore distinct from—God the Father. This belief is grounded in the Gospel of John passage “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (verse 14:28)

From Wikipedia

This also means that Arians deny the divinity of Jesus. They see him as a separate entity as much as Trinitarians do. However the truth is that the Spirit of God is incarnate in Jesus. It is true that the body is created but the Spirit is not. It is true that The Spirit of God incarnated in a body is not as great as the Spirit of God thoughout the universe.

I would agree that there is a distinction between Jesus and the Father but that distinction is the body.

Click to expand...

I can agree with you on the body being the difference as a relative answer allowing also: "the body determines as the containing vessel's parameters." iow= cannot contain the wholeness of God within. It is a contradiction. Therefore God; as in a vessel is also the WORD and not the WORD-grasped by us in the parameter of relationship, of personality-as what we know;conceptualize, limit or constrain="SON". Right now this humanity's highest perceptions of relationship potential here. yet also true at the same time Divinity is beyond here..eternally.
God as first source and center then also truth-God IS Personality. We perceive personality as unique to the vessel. In this -way- This is the vehicle we use to perceive closeness, unity,feel at-one-ment love of, with, and for God. God so loves you. We can 'know' God to the limits of our abilities to grasp truths, a willingness to reach for truths as yet unperceived by ourselves.. Yet still God is more and therefore not the Son only. nor the Father only. nor the Holy Spirit only.

God as All in All is the Christ-yet the Eternal Son is with the Father always-how this is so, still a mystery. We'll get there, in many ways look how far we've come. We have Dominion here. So how we treat our home is in direct relation to how spiritually mature; ethically aligned we are with spiritual based truth-not trying to be a scientist here, I speak from the spiritual pov through limited mortal yet highest grasps of truths obtained in this personalized vessel thus far.

PART: 1

When Jesus came in the flesh, He revealed the Father... In Jo. 1:18 says “No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him”. Before that time God the Father was unknown to mankind in general.

Here Jesus reveals the Father, if the Holy Spirit was a 3rd individual in the Godhead, this was certainly the time to reveal him too...Don’t you think?
Although the people didn’t know who Jesus was when He came in the flesh, they knew Him in the O.T. as the I am who worked with Moses and as the God who led the children of Israel 40 years in the wilderness.

1Cor. 10 speaks to this. Verse,1Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloudand in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.


In Jo.1 Starting in verse 1 we read...In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. {this was another ideal time to tell us about this 3rd individual if it was true}


The greeting “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ”... or something similar to this is used by Paul in Romans... 1st and 2nd Corinthians...Galatians...Ephesians...Philippians...Colossians...1st and 2nd Thessalonians...1st and 2nd Timothy...Titus...and Philemon. Similar greetings are given in James, 1st John, 2nd John...Jude...and Revelation. All of these can be found within the first 7 verses of these books.

These all seem to me like ideal times to have mentioned the 3rd member of a trinity if one existed, but nothing! You reckon they forgot?

In the 4th and 5th chapters of Rev. there is quite a description of “The Throne Room in Heaven.” In this description we see God on His throne, 24 elders on their thrones, 4 living creatures, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ receiving the prophecy of all prophecies. It seems every one of import was there at this most important event.

Everyone that is, except the Holy Spirit. Do those who teach the trinity think his invitation got lost in the Mail or something?


The Holy Spirit is God’s Power, not a third individual in the godhead.
There are two individuals in the godhead, God the Father and God the Son.


Notice this admission in the New Bible Dictionary: "The term 'Trinity' is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century, but received wide currency and formal elucidation [clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries" (1996, "Trinity," emphasis added).
The dictionary goes on to explain that "the formal doctrine of the Trinity was the result of several inadequate attempts to explain who and what the Christian God really is ... To deal with these problems the Church Fathers met in 325 at the Council of Nicaea to set out an orthodox biblical definition concerning the divine identity." However, it wasn't until 381, "at the Council of Constantinople, [that] the divinity of the Spirit was affirmed ..."

The Scriptures speak of the Holy Spirit in many ways that demonstrate that it is not a divine person. For example, the Holy Spirit is referred to as a gift (Acts 10:45; 1 Timothy 4:14). We are told that it can be quenched (1 Thessalonians 5:19), that it can be poured out (Acts 2:17; 10:45), and that we are baptized with it (Matthew 3:11). It must be stirred up within us (2 Timothy 1:6), and it also renews us (Titus 3:5). These are certainly not attributes of a person.
This Spirit is also called "the holy Spirit of promise ... the guarantee of our inheritance ... the spirit of wisdom and revelation ..." (Ephesians 1:13-14, 17).
In contrast to God the Father and Jesus Christ, who are consistently compared to human beings in their form and shape, the Holy Spirit is just as consistently represented in a completely different manner. It is described as appearing as a dove (Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32) and as "tongues of fire" (Acts 2:3). Jesus compared it with "living water" (John 7:37-39).
The Gospels record further evidence that the Holy Spirit is not a person. In Matthew 1:20, we read that Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit (Moffatt translation). Yet Christ continually prayed to and addressed the Father, not the Holy Spirit, as His father (Matthew 10:32, 33; 11:25-27; 12:50; 15:13; 16:17, 27; 18:10, 35). Never did He represent the Holy Spirit as His Father.
Nor did Jesus speak of the Holy Spirit as a third divine person; instead He only spoke of the relationship between Him and God the Father (Matthew 26:39; Mark 13:32; 15:34; John 5:18, 22; 8:16, 18; 10:30; 13:3; 17:11).

PART: 2

If the godhead were a Trinity, surely the apostle Paul would have understood and emphasized this in his teaching. Yet we find no such concept in his writings. Paul's standard greeting in his letters to churches, as well as individuals to whom he wrote, is, "Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." There is no mention of the Holy Spirit.
This same greeting, with only minor variations, appears in every epistle that bears Paul's name: Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 1:2; Philippians 1:2; Colossians 1:2; 1 Thessalonians 1:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:2; 1 Timothy 1:2; 2 Timothy 1:2; Titus 1:4; and Philemon 3. The Holy Spirit is always left out of these greetings—an unbelievable oversight if the Holy Spirit were indeed a person coequal with God and Jesus.
This is even more surprising when we consider that the churches to which Paul wrote had many gentile members from polytheistic backgrounds who had formerly worshiped numerous gods. Paul's epistles record no attempt on his part to explain the Trinity or Holy Spirit as a divine person equal with God the Father and Jesus Christ.
The apostle Paul states clearly that "there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things ... and one Lord Jesus Christ ..." (1 Corinthians 8:6). He makes no mention of the Holy Spirit as a divine person.
The final book of the Bible (and the last to be written) describes "a new heaven and a new earth" (Revelation 21:1) wherein "the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them" (verse 3). Jesus Christ, "the Lamb," is also there (verse 22). The Holy Spirit, however, is conspicuously absent—another inconceivable oversight if this Spirit is the third person of a Trinity.
"God is Spirit" (John 4:24) and His Spirit is described by an angel as "the power of the Highest" (Luke 1:35). It is the same power we can receive directly from God.
Many other scriptures show this connection between the Holy Spirit and God's power. For example, Paul reminded Timothy that "God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind" (2 Timothy 1:7). Other scriptures refer to the Holy Spirit as the power of God (Zechariah 4:6; Micah 3:8).
Luke 4:14 records that Jesus Christ began His ministry "in the power of the Spirit." Speaking of the Holy Spirit, which would be given to His followers after His death, Jesus told them, "You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you ..." (Acts 1:8).
Peter relates that "God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, [and Jesus] went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him" (Acts 10:38). The Holy Spirit is here associated with the power by which God was with Him—the power through which Jesus Christ performed mighty miracles during His earthly, physical ministry. The Holy Spirit is the very presence of God's power actively working in His servants (Psalm 51:11; 139:7).
Paul expresses his desire that church members would "abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the same way that Jesus had worked through him "in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God" (Romans 15:13, 19).
This Spirit empowers Christians to live a life of growing and overcoming, of transforming their lives to become like Jesus Christ.
When the Holy Spirit is referred to by personal pronouns such as "he" or "himself" in the Scriptures, this does not prove the Holy Spirit is a person. The translators of the King James Version, influenced by their belief in the Holy Spirit as a third person in the Trinity, generally translated pronouns referring to the Holy Spirit as personal and masculine rather than neuter.
Translators of later English versions of the Bible, also operating from the premise of the Trinity, have gone a step further and most often translated all references to the Holy Spirit as masculine. Thus God's spirit is almost always incorrectly referred to with such personal pronouns as "he" or "him" in English Bible translations.

[/QUOTE]
Trinity <->the word- is not mentioned in the bible because Trinity is not an entity into and unto itself to be worshipped or deified. To perceive God you need only to go to the Son. Who leads you there? The Holy Spirit. No uniformity of thought required.

The Holy Spirit is the immediate result of; the culmination of, the relationship existence of the Father >with< the Son. The Holy Spirit came out from the Father because of the Son.
In this way, I agree with you in that the Holy Spirit is called a Spirit because it is not so much personified; rather Spirit as pure purposive energy such that it resides within individuals-individualistically; thereby-suited to the person's personality having none of it's own. This is how that still small voice we all relate to within is possible. Not your conscience-though the Holy Spirit uses your conscience to assist you in making informed free willed choices.

The Holy Spirit functions in part using the methodology of Reflection-To that individual and from behind that individual's eyes-reflected back unto them. Therein lies the Holy Spirit; yes Spirit has no mass that we know of -yet-Spirit takes all forms such as fill, spill out, etc.,up to and including inciting emotions through thought forms as we all know energy affects us.

John 14:15 Jesus says, "If you love Me, you will obey what I command you. And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you.

Jesus -verse 25, "All this I have spoke while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and He will remind you of everything that I have said to you."

"The Spirit, when He comes, will take of what belongs to Me and He will distribute it to you.” “When the Counsellor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father - the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father -He will testify about Me. And you also will testify, for you've been with Me from the beginning."

Chapter 16 verse 7, "But I tell you the truth, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but when I go, I will send Him to you. And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin, righteousness, and judgment to come." the Spirit of truth, will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on His own; He will speak only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to Me by taking from what is Mine and making it known to you. All that the Father has is Mine. That is why I say the Spirit will take from what is Mine and will make it known unto you."

The Holy Spirit has been confined to an oft refuted philosophy of theology, and by that, The Holy Spirit has been marginalized.

Those who argue so strenuously for the inspiration of scripture, that the scripture is breathed by the Spirit,

John the third chapter, "Nicodemus, unless a man is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God." Meaning, though the kingdom exists, it does not even come up on his[their] radar screen(s). "And unless he's born of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.”

Holy Spirit is the "third" in relationship to the Father and the Son. the Holy Spirit is not a personality we agree on that. God is personifed through His son Jesus-Jesus personify's The Son of God on earth as Jesus of Nazareth. I agree Jesus came to reveal God to man and man to God more fully. Jesus did this by living the human condition as it was lived then. Jesus's revelation of a new concept of God as in relationship to God's creation as loving and merciful and accessible to ordinary mortals- all of us-got him killed as a heretic to Judaism.

I don't see anywhere wher 2nd Corinthians 13:14 is mentioned. It says: the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you. Of course neither this verse nor any other "proves" the trinity doctrine. It is merely an example from the early days of xianity of them associating Jesus, god the father and the holy spirit together. about 300 years of thinking about how those three relate to each other led to the formulation of the trinity doctrine. Of course the trinity is a manmade doctrine. But, then again, so are all other doctrines about God.

keithnurse said:

I don't see anywhere where 2nd Corinthians 13:14 is mentioned. It says: the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.

Click to expand...

Curious as to why you left out the connecting word 'and' ^above^ ?

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, "AND" the love of God "AND" the communion of the holy spirit be with you all.

There we have the grace or undeserved kindness of Jesus.
Then we have the love of God.
Then we have the sharing of the holy spirit ....

The word 'and' makes them separate not one.

Paul addresses 2nd Corinthians [1v1] as Paul being called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ. An apostle 'through the will of God' or through God's will.
It does Not say through the will of Jesus Christ but through God's will.

Don't both God and Jesus have their own separate wills according to Matthew 26v39; Mark 14v36B; Luke 22v43; John 4v34; 5v30; 6v38