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How did Satan get to the garden of Eden?

C

connermt

Well-Known Member
sincerly said:
Hi Connermt, There are other places in the Scriptures which give other bits of information about Lucifer/Satan/that old dragon/serpent/ Devil which shows that "Being" to be an influence to sway one's actions for good or bad.(Believe that which one will).
In James 4:17, this is concerning one's "Responsibility", "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin." One is held responsible for all the knowledge one has acquired/been told concerning a right relationship to the Creator GOD and other human beings.
One can't blame GOD for one's wilful acts contrary to that which is given.
Click to expand...

So...you're using the bible, which was written by men, who were alive after the fall thus are imperfect, to interpert a perfect being's words, to justify a concept that's based on the bible?
So, you're using the bible to justify what the bible says is true?
You don't see a problem with that?
 
C

connermt

Well-Known Member
JacobEzra said:
Yeah. And if I shoot someone, its not my fault. Its the governments fault for allowing me to have the gun.

And if I shoplift, its not my fault. Its the owners fault for having the jtem I want.

And if I break into your house, then its your fault. You shouldn't have owned anything i wanted.
Click to expand...

You're right, if the gov't/owner is an all knowing god. But they're not, so the comparison is moot.

We each take responsibility for our actions, but when it comes to an all knowing, all powerful, all creating being like the christian god, it's ultimately responsible for everything that happens. After all, it either did it, or allowed it to happen. Otherwise, it's not all powerful.
It's funny, to me, for people to accept responsibility for things we can't change (the idea of original sin) when it was entirely possible for the christian god to have avoided it.
That's what happens when people take what they don't understand and/or what they want and contort it into something that can't be shown to be true (aka the christian god).
That's just how powerful belief can be - it can make an otherwise logical person accept something that's so illogical.
 
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sincerly

sincerly

Well-Known Member
connermt said:
So...you're using the bible, which was written by men, who were alive after the fall thus are imperfect, to interpert a perfect being's words, to justify a concept that's based on the bible?
So, you're using the bible to justify what the bible says is true?
You don't see a problem with that?
Click to expand...

Yes, the Bible was recorded by Men as they were instructed by the Holy Spirit. They wrote the Messages which were given by an infallable Being and given for fallible man's admonition/learning/right living. The "concept" as given by the "infallible Being" is perfect and true; It is justifiable to use that which was stated by that "infallible Being" and recorded as such to use that source rather than to assume that the theories of another man are true.
It is your concept which you should see as a problem.

Peace, sincerly
 
sincerly

sincerly

Well-Known Member
muhammad_isa said:
Indeed .. clear as a bell ! :)

However, one thing I'd like to point out..
Young's literal translation says:-

"and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him."

so .. there is confusion around the subjet of satan having "angels" .. the angels are God's servants, not satan's! These 'messengers' are referring to satan's followers, and they belong to the same 'family' as satan himself.

Angels are usually depicted as .. well, as angels :D
.. they are faultless, blameless .. aren't accountable for their actions.

Alas, I'm only a human-being, and can only try my best to avoid sin..
Click to expand...

I have no problem with Young's translation. Satan is an "adversary", both of GOD and mankind. 1Pet.5:8 has this admonition, "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary(Satan) the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"
That is why he(and those who deceived) was cast out of heaven/GOD'S presence. Rev.12:7.

The word translated "Angel(s)" is "Malak" and means "one sent", "a messenger" and can be applied to Angels or humans. Jesus was also, "sent by the Father". However, the "Angels of heaven" have the same freedom of choice that we humans do. Jude 1:6, "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."
2Peter 2:4, "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"
Those Angels did sin and will be judged just as the record shows.There wouldn't have been "war in heaven" had they been doing the Will of the Father.
Yes, they are to be "blamed" and are "guilty" for their actions.

Peace, Sincerly
 
sincerly

sincerly

Well-Known Member
outhouse said:
how did the holy ghost communicate with all the different unknown authors
Click to expand...

As Fallingblood stated, The Holy Spirit knows all and, also, is aware of the number of hairs on each persons heads and knows each by name. Rev.3:5, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
 
sincerly

sincerly

Well-Known Member
JacobEzra said:
How can an all powerful deity have an adversary?
Click to expand...

To one who believes that he can do a better job than the one who created him, it isn't a problem being an adversary....rival, antagonist, hostile/rebellious being.

There are many persons today who in that very position.
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
sincerly said:
To one who believes that he can do a better job than the one who created him, it isn't a problem being an adversary....rival, antagonist, hostile/rebellious being.

There are many persons today who in that very position.
Click to expand...

considering the attributes that mankind has labeled god with
it makes sense god needs an adversary
 
JacobEzra.

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
sincerly said:
To one who believes that he can do a better job than the one who created him, it isn't a problem being an adversary....rival, antagonist, hostile/rebellious being.

There are many persons today who in that very position.
Click to expand...

That conflicts with the belief of a powerful diety. You can't challenge and fight the lord. People attribute to much power to this so called devil, elevating him to god status.
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
sincerly said:
As Fallingblood stated, The Holy Spirit knows all and, also, is aware of the number of hairs on each persons heads and knows each by name. Rev.3:5, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
Click to expand...

boy if thats not dodging the question
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
fallingblood said:
Just because the authors are unknown to us, that doesn't mean they were always unknown or that the Holy Spirit, if it exists, didn't know them.
Click to expand...

correct and I never stated differently.


I just want to know how christians thing the spirit talked to people.

whisper in their ear? magic? channel thought into their head while floating above?


HOW??


because its going to be different then what anyone else thinks
 
fallingblood

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
outhouse said:
correct and I never stated differently.


I just want to know how christians thing the spirit talked to people.

whisper in their ear? magic? channel thought into their head while floating above?


HOW??


because its going to be different then what anyone else thinks
Click to expand...
It is going to talk to people as one would talk to another. The idea of how the Holy Spirit communicates with people is no secret. Those who believe that the Holy Spirit exists and communicate with people are usually more than happy to share how it happens.
 
waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
fallingblood said:
It is going to talk to people as one would talk to another. The idea of how the Holy Spirit communicates with people is no secret. Those who believe that the Holy Spirit exists and communicate with people are usually more than happy to share how it happens.
Click to expand...

i had a dream that spoke to me last night...
it dealt with something very personal...something that's been buggin me for a few days
and i know i'm not the only person to have this experience
i'm sure those that wrote the bible had similar experiences...

i've been on shrooms too and thought i reached a truth for myself

even been high while writing lyrics that seem to resonate with people, from what i've been told...

so there are plenty of ways on can interpret inspiration...
one just needs to listen
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
sincerly said:
However, the "Angels of heaven" have the same freedom of choice that we humans do.
Click to expand...

Well, I don't think so .. "and the Angel of the Lord came down" really suggests to me that angels are "angelic"
ie. not the same as men .. perfect

One thing's for sure .. demons and angels are not physical creatures :)

..this doesn't alter the fact that 'the serpent' is indeed satan.. that's indisputable!
 
arcanum

arcanum

Active Member
I don't know if it's been pointed out yet in this thread but no where is the old testament does it say that the serpent in the garden of Eden was Satan. If you believe it does please cite the scripture.
 
sincerly

sincerly

Well-Known Member
outhouse said:
correct and I never stated differently.


I just want to know how christians thing the spirit talked to people.

whisper in their ear? magic? channel thought into their head while floating above?


HOW??


because its going to be different then what anyone else thinks
Click to expand...

Outhouse, Look at this message to Moses, Aaron, and Miriam. Num.12:6-8, "And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, [and] will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses [is] not so, who [is] faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

With Daniel(1:17; 2:14-19), Nebuchadnezzar's dream was made known by GOD in a night vision.

Those things which GOD desires HIS people to know/understand are revealed. See Amos 3:7, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."
 
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