What Makes Jesus The Son Of God.The Son Of God Theory.

Binyamin said:

Well, if Jews believe in reincarnation, why would Jesus change this belief when Duet 13:1-7 clearly says that if someone adds or subtracts the SMALLEST thing, he is a false prophet?

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According to the TaNakh, where do Jews believe in reincarnation?

Regards,
Scott

joeboonda said:

I have read the new testament for since I was child, I am 40 now. Jesus warned about Hell more than he talked about Heaven. He said He that believes on him has eternal life, and he that does not, is condemned already because he has not believed in him, see John 3:16-end of chapter. He made it clear that he must die for our sins, and that by trusting him as saviour his righteousness is imputed unto us, otherwise we must stand before God in our own righteousness which is as filthy rags, and we shall not get into heaven. Read what he says, he is very clear about it.

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I believe Jesus is very clear about it, which make me wonder why you are so unclear about it?
Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays said:

According to the TaNakh, where do Jews believe in reincarnation?

Regards,
Scott

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Gilgul ha'ne'shamot.

http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_reincarnation.htm

Binyamin said:

Gilgul ha'ne'shamot.

http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_reincarnation.htm

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5 “If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the widow of the dead man shall not be married to a stranger outside the family; her husband’s brother shall go in to her, take her as his wife, and perform the duty of a husband’s brother to her. 6 And it shall be that the firstborn son which she bears will succeed to the name of his dead brother, that his name may not be blotted out of Israel. 7 But if the man does not want to take his brother’s wife, then let his brother’s wife go up to the gate to the elders, and say, ‘My husband’s brother refuses to raise up a name to his brother in Israel; he will not perform the duty of my husband’s brother.’ 8 Then the elders of his city shall call him and speak to him. But if he stands firm and says, ‘I do not want to take her,’ 9 then his brother’s wife shall come to him in the presence of the elders, remove his sandal from his foot, spit in his face, and answer and say, ‘So shall it be done to the man who will not build up his brother’s house.’ 10 And his name shall be called in Israel, ‘The house of him who had his sandal removed.’
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4 Moses commanded a law for us,
A heritage of the congregation of Jacob.

5 And He was King in Jeshurun,
When the leaders of the people were gathered,
All the tribes of Israel together. 6 “Let Reuben live, and not die,
Nor let his men be few.”
7 And this he said of Judah:

“Hear, LORD, the voice of Judah,
And bring him to his people;
Let his hands be sufficient for him,
And may You be a help against his enemies.”
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14 Then it was revealed in my hearing by the LORD of hosts,

“ Surely for this iniquity there will be no atonement for you,
Even to your death,” says the Lord GOD of hosts.
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3 A people who provoke Me to anger continually to My face;
Who sacrifice in gardens,
And burn incense on altars of brick;
4 Who sit among the graves,
And spend the night in the tombs;
Who eat swine’s flesh,
And the broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
5 Who say, ‘Keep to yourself,
Do not come near me,
For I am holier than you!’
These are smoke in My nostrils,
A fire that burns all the day.
6 “ Behold, it is written before Me:
I will not keep silence, but will repay—
Even repay into their bosom—
7 Your iniquities and the iniquities of your fathers together,”
Says the LORD,

“ Who have burned incense on the mountains
And blasphemed Me on the hills;
Therefore I will measure their former work into their bosom.”
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These are the verses cited as suggesting "reincarnation". I don't see it, I guess its a matter of interpretation. If you DO see it so, fine with me. But I doubt ALL Jews believe so.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays said:

These are the verses cited as suggesting "reincarnation". I don't see it, I guess its a matter of interpretation. If you DO see it so, fine with me. But I doubt ALL Jews believe so.

Regards,
Scott

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Most Jews I know, don't pick and choose what to believe, we do first, and then figure out the reason.

Binyamin said:

Most Jews I know, don't pick and choose what to believe, we do first, and then figure out the reason.

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Feel free, I do not see itthat way entirely, but yes, I can see the point. I became baha`i when I became convinced that it was what I had been all my life - even when I knew nothing of it. But that was not entirely the process as you see it.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays said:

I believe Jesus is very clear about it, which make me wonder why you are so unclear about it?
Regards,
Scott

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Ok, here is Jesus the quote then: Jesus' words, highlighted in red in the Holy Bible:

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

joeboonda said:

Ok, here is Jesus the quote then: Jesus' words, highlighted in red in the Holy Bible:

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

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Muslims and Baha`i's believe in Jesus Christ, too, you know.
"And she pointed to him, and they said, 'How are we to speak with one who is in the cradle a child?' He said, 'Verily, I am a servant of God; He has brought me the Book, and He has made me a prophet, and He has made me blessed wherever I be; and He has required of me prayer and almsgiving so long as I live, and piety towards my mother, and has not made me a miserable tyrant; and peace upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised up alive.' That is, Jesus the son of Mary,-by the word of truth whereon ye do dispute!"
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 19 - Mary)
"The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be 76 demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Husayn offered up as a sacrifice by Muhammad, the Apostle of God."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 75)





Regards.
Scott

Popeyesays said:

Muslims and Baha`i's believe in Jesus Christ, too, you know.
"And she pointed to him, and they said, 'How are we to speak with one who is in the cradle a child?' He said, 'Verily, I am a servant of God; He has brought me the Book, and He has made me a prophet, and He has made me blessed wherever I be; and He has required of me prayer and almsgiving so long as I live, and piety towards my mother, and has not made me a miserable tyrant; and peace upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised up alive.' That is, Jesus the son of Mary,-by the word of truth whereon ye do dispute!"
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 19 - Mary)
"The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be 76 demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Husayn offered up as a sacrifice by Muhammad, the Apostle of God."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 75)





Regards.
Scott

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They may believe things about Christ, but not in him. One, they do not believe he died on the cross for our sins, that is not a good thing! Another, it was Isaac whom Abraham offered, not Ishmael, another lie. They either are telling the truth or are lying, or we are. Mohammad came some 600 years after Christ, and although all the apostles said they were eyewitnesses to him dying for our sins, Mohammad said, nah, it was an imposter! The dead sea scrolls said Isaac was offered not Ishmael. We could not disprove that so easily before as the oldest OT manuscripts we had were from 1100 A.D. but the dead sea scroll are much older dating to around Jesus' time, before Mohammad, and it was Isaac. You believe all religions lead to God, but this is only true if they finaly lead you to Christ the one one who paid for our sins so we can be with God. The final one world religion of the false prophet during the tribulation is going to be all inclusive, I want no part of that, I will proclaim Christ crucified, and that is it.

joeboonda said:

They may believe things about Christ, but not in him. One, they do not believe he died on the cross for our sins, that is not a good thing! Another, it was Isaac whom Abraham offered, not Ishmael, another lie. They either are telling the truth or are lying, or we are. Mohammad came some 600 years after Christ, and although all the apostles said they were eyewitnesses to him dying for our sins, Mohammad said, nah, it was an imposter! The dead sea scrolls said Isaac was offered not Ishmael. We could not disprove that so easily before as the oldest OT manuscripts we had were from 1100 A.D. but the dead sea scroll are much older dating to around Jesus' time, before Mohammad, and it was Isaac. You believe all religions lead to God, but this is only true if they finaly lead you to Christ the one one who paid for our sins so we can be with God. The final one world religion of the false prophet during the tribulation is going to be all inclusive, I want no part of that, I will proclaim Christ crucified, and that is it.

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"55. Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith, to the Day of Resurrection; then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 3)

Actually the Scrolls fromthe cave at Qum'ran are the Essene tradition, rather than the Torah and TaNakh written two centuries previously.

One might notice that the Torah's description of the time of Abraham was not written until fifteen centuries after the narrative written. It makes little difference which son was offered up by Abraham, the offering and the refusal of the offering were the point.

All the Manifestations lead to God, because They were all Jesus in spirit. Just as Jesus promised in the Gospel for His return.

Regards,
Scott

Ok, I see you believe in many paths, but I think that either Abraham offered Isaac, or he offered Ishmael, one is true one is a lie of the devil. Jesus is the way, or he is not. No man comes to the Father but by him, he said, he is either a liar or hes is not. There is only one way to Heaven and that is through Jesus Christ, that is what he said, if you say there are many ways to Heaven, you are saying he is a liar, that God is a liar, and the Bible says God cannot lie. Jesus is the only way to Heaven, there is no other.

joeboonda said:

Ok, I see you believe in many paths, but I think that either Abraham offered Isaac, or he offered Ishmael, one is true one is a lie of the devil. Jesus is the way, or he is not. No man comes to the Father but by him, he said, he is either a liar or hes is not. There is only one way to Heaven and that is through Jesus Christ, that is what he said, if you say there are many ways to Heaven, you are saying he is a liar, that God is a liar, and the Bible says God cannot lie. Jesus is the only way to Heaven, there is no other.

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AZbraham offered a well-beloved son. Abraham was promised by God that His progeny would found nations - nations, not nation. From Abraham descends Moses. From Abraham descends Zoroaster, from Abraham descends Jesus. From Abraham descends Muhammed, from Abraham descends the Bab (through Muhammed). From Abraham descends Baha`u'llah (through Zoroaster). NATIONS! To each of these nations descends the covenant of Abraham.

This is proof concrete that the Cause of God traces through all these religions. The covenant of Jesus is spread to all mankind through the descent of the covenant of Abraham. Muhammed acknowledges this, the Bab acknowledges it. Baha`u'llah acknowledges it.

Salvation comes through GOD. THrough His Justice and His Mercy.

"4. O SON OF MAN!
I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.
5. O SON OF BEING!
Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
6. O SON OF BEING!
Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not. This is that which hath been destined for thee in Our kingdom above and Our exalted dominion."

Regards,
Scott

The promise to Abraham was for all nations, that through him they would be blessed, because from out of his nation, his family, would come Jesus who is saviour of the world.

joeboonda said:

The promise to Abraham was for all nations, that through him they would be blessed, because from out of his nation, his family, would come Jesus who is saviour of the world.

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And where does it say that?

Binyamin said:

And where does it say that?

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Hi Binyamin, its basicaly from the New Testament, I think the book of Hebrews and Romans ch.4 speak of it. Its a christian belief, but I believe in Genesis 15 God tells Abraham that his seed shall be as the number of the stars. I don't know if it ties it together anywhere in the OT or not, except that the logic flows that Abraham would be the father of the nation of Israel, God's chosen people through whom the Messiah or Saviour of the world would come. Christians, of course, believe Jesus is the Messiah so that is how we see it play out.

Ah, here we go: Had to look a sec...

Genesis 12:3 God promised to Abraham..."And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Acts 3:35-26 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Binyamin said:

And where does it say that?

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As to Abraham, in the Old Testament it says in Genesis:
"17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

I'm sure you can find the relative verses in the Masoretic.

As to the Jesus reference, that is in the New Testament, which you do not accept as authoritative.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays said:

As to the Jesus reference, that is in the New Testament, which you do not accept as authoritative.

Regards,
Scott

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So you agree that the promise of Abraham doesn't mention the coming of Jesus. Okay, thanks.

Binyamin said:

So you agree that the promise of Abraham doesn't mention the coming of Jesus. Okay, thanks.

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Just a note, I never said it did. On the other, hand the promise of Abraham does not mention Moses either. Remember, I'm not a Christian.

Regards,
Scott

joeboonda said:

Hi Binyamin, its basicaly from the New Testament, I think the book of Hebrews and Romans ch.4 speak of it. Its a christian belief, but I believe in Genesis 15 God tells Abraham that his seed shall be as the number of the stars. I don't know if it ties it together anywhere in the OT or not, except that the logic flows that Abraham would be the father of the nation of Israel, God's chosen people through whom the Messiah or Saviour of the world would come. Christians, of course, believe Jesus is the Messiah so that is how we see it play out.

Ah, here we go: Had to look a sec...

Genesis 12:3 God promised to Abraham..."And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

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You didn't answer the question...

The claim was made that the Promise of Avraham which was made in Bereishis (Genesis) stated that Jesus would come. Let me again post the claim...

The promise to Abraham was for all nations, that through him they would be blessed, because from out of his nation, his family, would come Jesus who is saviour of the world.

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I'm looking in Genesis right now and I just... don't see it... G-d made the promise to Avraham, I'm lookin at it, I don't see "will come Jesus who is the savior of the world".

Popeyesays said:

Just a note, I never said it did. On the other, hand the promise of Abraham does not mention Moses either. Remember, I'm not a Christian.

Regards,
Scott

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I didn't say you were... I'm just pointing out what was said... He claimed the promise of Avraham includes the coming of Jesus, I just don't see it in Genesis...