Ideals in Religion & Philosophy

Darkdale · Nov 14, 2005

One thing I have noticed is that, whether or not many of us are religious or atheist, most everyone on this board operates from an idealistic position. Now, I've studied religion and philosophy for a long time and have, from time to time, embraced certain Ideals as being "the best" or the "Truth". Classical Rationalism, beginning with Plato and essentially being completed by Immanuel Kant, is one such system of Idealism that plays an essential role in both religion and philosophy. The foundation of Rationalism is found in its' metaphysics, or in the study of the fundamental nature of Reality, whether visible or not.

Any tradition dependant upon metaphysics, whether it is Egalitarianism or Christianity, is thus dependant upon Faith, or an acceptance of an ideal or set of ideals concerning the fundamental nature of Reality.

What do you think would be the effect of considering metaphysics in a purely materialist perspective? With no dualism or Forms such as "Beauty", "Love", "Justice", "Good" or "Evil", could Christianity (and like religions) and philosophies such as Egalitarianism survive? Could either survive if we only allowed for material concepts to be considered?

That's question 1.

Could any religion survive without "dualism"? Would it be possible to have a materialist religion? If so, would gods and spirits be necessarily impossible?

Thats' questions 2, 3 & 4.

Final Question: What are the benefits of "dualism" and "idealism" on religion and philosophy? or do these assumed forms lead to mass-delusion?

* Marx was considered to be a materialist, but yet believed very much in Platonic ideas of Justice, Good and Evil. Is there really room for dualism in materialism? That is to say, is dialectical materialism contradictory?

Ormiston · Nov 14, 2005

Darkdale said:
What do you think would be the effect of considering metaphysics in a purely materialist perspective? With no dualism or Forms such as "Beauty", "Love", "Justice", "Good" or "Evil", could Christianity (and like religions) and philosophies such as Egalitarianism survive? Could either survive if we only allowed for material concepts to be considered?

That's question 1.

I think so. Christianity seems to be based mainly on specific Laws that govern the behavior of the followers. Even if you exclude "Love thy neighbor" from the rules, "Thou shall not kill" still has a very specific meaning.

Darkdale said:
Could any religion survive without "dualism"? Would it be possible to have a materialist religion? If so, would gods and spirits be necessarily impossible?

Thats' questions 2, 3 & 4.

As far as survival is concerned, I think yes, although, at a limited capacity. If the religion is reduced to specific Laws it might eliminate the need of seperate denominations. It would reduce the opportunities to misinterpret the grey areas since they would be reduced or eliminated.

A materialist religion? Seems possible at first glance, although I'm not sure there is a need. I suppose it would be based around the study of reality; nothing wrong there. And I don't think gods or spirits would be NECESSARILY impossible. When studying reality, I'd have to believe all ideas would have to be considered equally valid/invalid. It wouldn't make sense to invalidate the unknow in case it becomes known in the future.

Darkdale said:
Final Question: What are the benefits of "dualism" and "idealism" on religion and philosophy? or do these assumed forms lead to mass-delusion?

I think there is a place for them in any discussion. Mass-delusion seems like an overdramatic description of the effects. These words make sense to people even if they have multiple meanings and are usefull in conversation. I do think it is fair to say that they certainly can confuse the issues though.

Jayhawker Soule · Nov 14, 2005

Darkdale said:
One thing I have noticed is that, whether or not many of us are religious or atheist, most everyone on this board operates from an idealistic position.

Naturalists do not.

Darkdale said:
The foundation of Rationalism is found in its' metaphysics, or in the study of the fundamental nature of Reality, whether visible or not.

Any tradition dependant upon metaphysics, whether it is Egalitarianism or Christianity, is thus dependant upon Faith, or an acceptance of an ideal or set of ideals concerning the fundamental nature of Reality.

By substitution, you've just claimed:

any tradition dependant upon the study of the fundamental nature of Reality ... is thus dependant upon Faith

which is obviously absurd.

Darkdale said:
Could any religion survive without "dualism"?

Define religion. Certainly 'religion' defined as "an impulse for cohesion and meaning" would easily accommodate religious naturalism.

michel · Nov 14, 2005

When you reply to Deut's points, Darkdale, I set standards for myself that are different from the ones I set for others.

ie I use Idealism for my own frames of reference, but would never expect idealism to be applied to my view of other peoples'.

I realize that that can sound as if it comes from a point of 'I am better than others', but I can assure you that is not the case (This latter statement to stem the rush of "Oh, so you think you are better than others, then ?":bonk:

Darkdale · Nov 14, 2005

Deut... What I am getting at, is that metaphysics is the area of philosophy that provides us with the Ideals, upon which our assumptions about what reality is, are based. (horrible sentence, my apologies). Materialism suggests that Reality is material. It is based on material and observed by material. Materialism negates dualism and should, though it has yet to succeed, remove the dialectical approach to reasoning used by Hegel, Marx and Kant.

If we remove dualism from religion, we effectively remove any ideas regarding supernatural concepts and spiritual concepts, we also remove from our active vocabulary Ideal Forms such as Love, Justice, Beauty, Good and Evil... ideas that have no material that corresponds to them.

Given that, could philosophies and religions continue to exist? (and I accept your definition of religion). And could any idea of "god" exist within that purely materialist perspective?

I think that it can, but I think it lessons the "meaning" of god to something literally material. Wouldn't that, for most people, make it useless?

Quiddity · Nov 14, 2005

darkdale said:
If we remove dualism from religion, we effectively remove any ideas regarding supernatural concepts and spiritual concepts,

How so? Is this like without evil you can't have good, type of argument?

~Victor

Darkdale · Nov 14, 2005

Victor said:
How so? Is this like without evil you can't have good, type of argument?

~Victor

No, what it means is, that Dualism provides us with a "category" within which ideas like good and evil can exist. If dualism doesn't exist, then there is no way of communicating good or evil... there is no form for either. All you have are individual events and their effects. There are no conceptual qualities that correspond to them, no label for "good" or "evil".

Quiddity · Nov 14, 2005

Darkdale said:
No, what it means is, that Dualism provides us with a "category" within which ideas like good and evil can exist. If dualism doesn't exist, then there is no way of communicating good or evil... there is no form for either. All you have are individual events and their effects. There are no conceptual qualities that correspond to them, no label for "good" or "evil".

Ah ok, I see what you mean. I'm looking forward to seeing how some material calls another material evil and how all that is defined.

~Victor

michel · Nov 14, 2005

Darkdale, you are going way over my head, I am afraid........

Jayhawker Soule · Nov 14, 2005

Darkdale said:
Deut... What I am getting at, is that metaphysics is the area of philosophy that provides us with the Ideals, ...

False. I think you were doing much better with your earlier definition.

Darkdale · Nov 14, 2005

Deut. 10:19 said:
False. I think you were doing much better with your earlier definition.

Look, I'd really like to pull you into this debate, and I'm not sure what you are getting hung up on. Insofar as Metaphysics is the area of philosophy used to study the nature of reality, both visible and invisible, it is the area of philosophy upon which ideals are established.

The other area of philosophy, epistemology, is based on what we can actually know, therefore ideals are irrelevant. What is at issue here, is science, logic and pragmatics. Thus, what I am trying to do, is to establish a dialogue about religion from a materialist, or strictly epistemological, perspective, to see whether or not any religious or philosophical perspective can exist without holding on to the ideals generated by metaphysics.

Does that make sense?

Darkdale · Nov 14, 2005

Victor said:
Ah ok, I see what you mean. I'm looking forward to seeing how some material calls another material evil and how all that is defined.

~Victor

Well, what I am saying is, that without dualism and without idealism, there is no way we can establish "evil". All we can do is assign value to a particular goal (promotion of the specie, nation, environment, community, family, self... for example) and to apply moral debates to that perspective. We can't even establish ideals such as "love" or "beauty" in such a system. Does that limit religion, or could a religion exist given those assumptions?

Quiddity · Nov 14, 2005

Darkdale said:
Well, what I am saying is, that without dualism and without idealism, there is no way we can establish "evil". All we can do is assign value to a particular goal (promotion of the specie, nation, environment, community, family, self... for example) and to apply moral debates to that perspective. We can't even establish ideals such as "love" or "beauty" in such a system. Does that limit religion, or could a religion exist given those assumptions?

I don't see why not.

~Victor

Ormiston · Nov 14, 2005

Victor said:
I don't see why not.

~Victor

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Victor again.

Darn it! I wanted to put you over the 10,000 mark!!!

Quiddity · Nov 14, 2005

Ormiston said:
You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Victor again.

Darn it! I wanted to put you over the 10,000 mark!!!

9999, ONE more to go...:jiggy:

~Victor

Jayhawker Soule · Nov 14, 2005

Darkdale said:
Well, what I am saying is, that without dualism and without idealism, there is no way we can establish "evil".

May I ask your age and family circumstance?

Darkdale · Nov 14, 2005

Deut. 10:19 said:
May I ask your age and family circumstance?

26, born to two wealthy evangelical Christian parents. Dropped out of school at 16 and was kicked out of my home. Three years later, I made up with my family and attended college. Good enough?

Why does that matter?

michel · Nov 14, 2005

Darkdale said:
Look, I'd really like to pull you into this debate, and I'm not sure what you are getting hung up on. Insofar as Metaphysics is the area of philosophy used to study the nature of reality, both visible and invisible, it is the area of philosophy upon which ideals are established.

The other area of philosophy, epistemology, is based on what we can actually know, therefore ideals are irrelevant. What is at issue here, is science, logic and pragmatics. Thus, what I am trying to do, is to establish a dialogue about religion from a materialist, or strictly epistemological, perspective, to see whether or not any religious or philosophical perspective can exist without holding on to the ideals generated by metaphysics.

Does that make sense?

Ah! Now I see what you are saying; you will have to forgive me...long words like 'marmalade' frighten me........

Thus, what I am trying to do, is to establish a dialogue about religion from a materialist, or strictly epistemological, perspective, to see whether or not any religious or philosophical perspective can exist without holding on to the ideals generated by metaphysics.

To my mind, the idea of Religion, without metaphysics, is not viable.

Except - as a very far fetched thought....go with me on this one; althougth the concept is mind-boggling.

What about a Catholic-like religion, in which the God is a man. For 'sin' read 'crime' for paradise read 'comfortable old folk's home'........forget the Bible; that could not exist, because of the concentration on the metaphysical. For 'praise' read 'veneration'.

I think what you would have left, would be a dictatorship. Is this absurd ? It's geting on for bedtime.........

Fascist Christ · Nov 16, 2005

My religion is often seen as materialistic. For the most part, Deists are non-specific regarding the exact nature of god. For example, the Architect of the Matrix could satisfy the requirements of a god in a general Deist sense, and such a proposition is materialistic.

We have no dogmatic good and evil, just the idea that the design of the Universe is the ultimate model by which to reflect our own actions.

michel · Nov 16, 2005

Darkdale said:
26, born to two wealthy evangelical Christian parents. Dropped out of school at 16 and was kicked out of my home. Three years later, I made up with my family and attended college. Good enough?

Why does that matter?

But you are only a young man! Your avatar looks so much older and wise; you have been misrepresenting yourself!!!!

I don't know what the world is coming to............*mutters to himself*:biglaugh:

Ideals in Religion & Philosophy

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