Monotheistic Native Americans

Quakerguy · Dec 8, 2011

I would like to know what Native American Tribes were Monotheistic?

painted wolf · Dec 17, 2011

Quite a few... Cherokee for example are monotheist as well as pantheist.

wa:do

TTCUSM · Dec 18, 2011

The term "monotheism" gets misused significantly when referring to non-Western cultures.
Do the Cherokees really believe in a single deity and reject the existence of other divinities (true monotheism)? Using this standard, only the Abrahamic religions qualify as monotheists.
Or do they simply believe in a single, all-pervading entity from which the entire universe emerged (panentheism)? Using this standard, even Hinduism can claim to be monotheistic.

painted wolf · Dec 18, 2011

Both.

wa:do

TsalagiElder · Dec 27, 2011

Interesting that such a question about monotheism should be asked of the Tsalagi. We do believe in one Creator and we do worship that one Creator, however we respect the spirits of all living things and that includes Grandmother Earth. So I guess you can say we are true monotheists.

Valjean · Dec 27, 2011

TTCUSM said:
The term "monotheism" gets misused significantly when referring to non-Western cultures.
Do the Cherokees really believe in a single deity and reject the existence of other divinities (true monotheism)? Using this standard, only the Abrahamic religions qualify as monotheists.

Using that standard most Abrahamics might not quality either, TT -- though, as with most things, it depends on definitions and interpretations.

Most Christians believe in a trinity at Head of State, and actively pray to two of them. Then there are different sorts of angels and other celestial entities populating Heaven, and some less savory invisibles inhabiting the more tropical regions. Of course in some sects most of the praying and worship bypasses God entirely and is directed toward a panoply of saints.

Nashitheki · Apr 22, 2012

I do not know about every tribe or band across the land, but the majority of them before the introduction of and the conversion to, or blending of Christianity, acknowledged no supreme deities or a single all powerful great spirit. I do know the Algonquian tribes were/are animists and have numerous spirits and supernatural beings they revere. Most accounts of a single deity called the 'great spirit' were misconceptions of non-Indians designed to modify some aspects of traditional Indian beliefs to befit their monotheistc religion or a step towards converting tribes to Christianity by giving them a conception of a single 'Native American' male deity. Quite similar to the way ancient European tribes were introduced and converted to Christianity.

Kind of the same way Yule was changed into Christmas.

painted wolf · Apr 22, 2012

Na****heki said:
I do not know about every tribe or band across the land, but the majority of them before the introduction of and the conversion to, or blending of Christianity, acknowledged no supreme deities or a single all powerful great spirit. I do know the Algonquian tribes were/are animists and have numerous spirits and supernatural beings they revere. Most accounts of a single deity called the 'great spirit' were misconceptions of non-Indians designed to modify some aspects of traditional Indian beliefs to befit their monotheistc religion or a step towards converting tribes to Christianity by giving them a conception of a single 'Native American' male deity. Quite similar to the way ancient European tribes were introduced and converted to Christianity.

Kind of the same way Yule was changed into Christmas.

Very valid point... I think it also helps to note that the concept of "supreme" and "all powerful" are also very European/Abrahamic concepts.
Even when a "great spirit" was present it usually wasn't in the form that Europeans thought of when they thought of "god".

wa:do

Nashitheki · Apr 23, 2012

Greetings, painted wolf.

Frankly I question the intentions of both non-Indians and Indians who attempt to blend in such aspects of the monotheistic religion into these ancient animistic beliefs. Some sway like tree limbs and are forever bent and often broken in this wind, but there are still some of us who are secure as the roots and steadfast as the boles of ancient oaks.

painted wolf · Apr 23, 2012

Na****heki said:
Greetings, painted wolf.

Frankly I question the intentions of both non-Indians and Indians who attempt to blend in such aspects of the monotheistic religion into these ancient animistic beliefs. Some sway like tree limbs and are forever bent and often broken in this wind, but there are still some of us who are secure as the roots and steadfast as the boles of ancient oaks.

The ways of our ancestors were more complex and varied than we can ever fully appreciate. Animism isn't a single set of beliefs without variation. Life would be very boring otherwise. Animism, pantheism and monotheism are not mutually exclusive ideas... they are fluid concepts.

However, to say that anyone has the exact same beliefs as their centuries past ancestors ignores the fact that nothing exists without change. Even the mountains will eventually be worn away by the wind and the rain. The oak that doesn't bend, breaks.

We all walk as closely as we can to our ancestors... but we are not them and we can't know everything they did. Our ancestors were dynamic people and they did their own blending and changing as they interacted with each other.

wa:do

Nashitheki · Apr 23, 2012

painted wolf said:
The ways of our ancestors were more complex and varied than we can ever fully appreciate. Animism isn't a single set of beliefs without variation. Life would be very boring otherwise. Animism, pantheism and monotheism are not mutually exclusive ideas... they are fluid concepts.

However, to say that anyone has the exact same beliefs as their centuries past ancestors ignores the fact that nothing exists without change. Even the mountains will eventually be worn away by the wind and the rain. The oak that doesn't bend, breaks.

We all walk as closely as we can to our ancestors... but we are not them and we can't know everything they did. Our ancestors were dynamic people and they did their own blending and changing as they interacted with each other.

wa:do

and how the elder ones interact with the more recent.

I realize animism is not a single set of beliefs, being a life long animist who interacts with other animists.

As for monotheistic Indians -

More than likely those early days of first contact and attempt to cohabitate with tribes along the Atlantic coast were as not as negatively bias as most modern people assume. Instead of blood thirsty savages, the early English settlers perceived Indians as very efficient farmers, hunters and food gatherers, but on the same note, thought they should be washed up, dressed in a more prudent manner, taught English, educated, and accept Christianity as their religion.

The early colonists assumed that Indians would welcome such a lifestyle change and be thankful for deliverance from their primitive childlike ignorance that Satan tends to preys upon.

Aside from a few shallow written accounts of a culture and spirituality, they really didnt understand, most of the early colonist saw the Indians as gods wayward children, that had yet to know gods word.

Indians did not think much of English colonial social values and many did not want to understand as they were disgusted with the greed associated with capitalism and the plight of the colonial poor who often came begging food from neighboring tribes, some going native themselves. Many tribes who were still in a position of power, refused conversion to Christianity as it would compromise their long existing traditions and humanly pursuits.

As the colonial populations grew, so did their need for more land and resources. The colonists began looking at their Indian neighbors in a different perspective, especially the ones who had not adopted colonial culture or converted to Christianity. Now they were viewed as savage devil worshippers who were undeserving of anything but removal, containment or death unless they willingly cede their homelands away, be resettled upon small, less desirable locations and accept the Christian god as their own.

Those tribes who resisted were violently set upon, along the Atlantic coast as well as the ever expanding frontier, tribe after tribe were defeated. Those not killed outright, or fled were enslaved, many sent to the West Indies to work on plantations. Only those tribes who submitted and converted were allowed to survive in a poor condition.

Ravaged by disease and war, desperate to survive, its not all that surprising many Indians gave up their animistic beliefs and began to imagine concepts of a supreme master of life, single great spirit, or the Christian god. Of course beliefs were blended as well.

Trade had a lot to do with both cultural and spiritual change amongst the tribes. With the introduction of European goods into an advanced stone age culture came aspects of the European mindset. Stone knapping became almost forgotten in favor of steel tools, weapons and lead rifle balls. People were now wearing articles of clothing made from colonial cloth, using metal utensils, tools and farming implements, hunting and making war with trade rifles. I can imagine some Lenape, Odawa, Catawba, Cherokee or even a Shawnee of 1763 appreciating such colonial goods and pondering deeply upon a universal great spirit, comparable with the white mans god, who bestowed the wisdom to these Europeans, thus allowing them to invent such wonderful effective items, but on the same note, entertaining thoughts
of these colonials as having been swayed from the great spirits path into the sin they often preached against. By the mid 18th century many tribes whose cultures had been impacted by the colonists and their technology begin speaking more in terms of a master of life or great spirit as a deity. This concept would spread across the Mississippi onto the plains and beyond after the American Revolution and during Manifest Destiny.

Beliefs changed from various forms of primitive animism into pantheons of lesser spirits ruled by a supreme male great spirit or lumped together as a single deity or else they were blended with or completely substituted by Christianity.

No matter the new way we went, those forks in their paths took us away from lifestyles that had served us well for thousands of years before the first European contact and mention of god.

No we cant expect to stay as we were 12000 years ago as paths often stretch long and fork off, but some of us do not want to be upon seemingly good paths that eventually lead to bad places.

painted wolf · Apr 23, 2012

Na****heki said:
and how the elder ones interact with the more recent.

I realize animism is not a single set of beliefs, being a life long animist who interacts with other animists.

As for monotheistic Indians -

More than likely those early days of first contact and attempt to cohabitate with tribes along the Atlantic coast were as not as negatively bias as most modern people assume. Instead of blood thirsty savages, the early English settlers perceived Indians as very efficient farmers, hunters and food gatherers, but on the same note, thought they should be washed up, dressed in a more prudent manner, taught English, educated, and accept Christianity as their religion.

The early colonists assumed that Indians would welcome such a lifestyle change and be thankful for deliverance from their primitive childlike ignorance that Satan tends to preys upon.

Aside from a few shallow written accounts of a culture and spirituality, they really didnt understand, most of the early colonist saw the Indians as gods wayward children, that had yet to know gods word.

Indians did not think much of English colonial social values and many did not want to understand as they were disgusted with the greed associated with capitalism and the plight of the colonial poor who often came begging food from neighboring tribes, some going native themselves. Many tribes who were still in a position of power, refused conversion to Christianity as it would compromise their long existing traditions and humanly pursuits.

As the colonial populations grew, so did their need for more land and resources. The colonists began looking at their Indian neighbors in a different perspective, especially the ones who had not adopted colonial culture or converted to Christianity. Now they were viewed as savage devil worshippers who were undeserving of anything but removal, containment or death unless they willingly cede their homelands away, be resettled upon small, less desirable locations and accept the Christian god as their own.

Those tribes who resisted were violently set upon, along the Atlantic coast as well as the ever expanding frontier, tribe after tribe were defeated. Those not killed outright, or fled were enslaved, many sent to the West Indies to work on plantations. Only those tribes who submitted and converted were allowed to survive in a poor condition.

Ravaged by disease and war, desperate to survive, its not all that surprising many Indians gave up their animistic beliefs and began to imagine concepts of a supreme master of life, single great spirit, or the Christian god. Of course beliefs were blended as well.

Trade had a lot to do with both cultural and spiritual change amongst the tribes. With the introduction of European goods into an advanced stone age culture came aspects of the European mindset. Stone knapping became almost forgotten in favor of steel tools, weapons and lead rifle balls. People were now wearing articles of clothing made from colonial cloth, using metal utensils, tools and farming implements, hunting and making war with trade rifles. I can imagine some Lenape, Odawa, Catawba, Cherokee or even a Shawnee of 1763 appreciating such colonial goods and pondering deeply upon a universal great spirit, comparable with the white mans god, who bestowed the wisdom to these Europeans, thus allowing them to invent such wonderful effective items, but on the same note, entertaining thoughts
of these colonials as having been swayed from the great spirits path into the sin they often preached against. By the mid 18th century many tribes whose cultures had been impacted by the colonists and their technology begin speaking more in terms of a master of life or great spirit as a deity. This concept would spread across the Mississippi onto the plains and beyond after the American Revolution and during Manifest Destiny.

Beliefs changed from various forms of primitive animism into pantheons of lesser spirits ruled by a supreme male great spirit or lumped together as a single deity or else they were blended with or completely substituted by Christianity.

No matter the new way we went, those forks in their paths took us away from lifestyles that had served us well for thousands of years before the first European contact and mention of god.

No we cant expect to stay as we were 12000 years ago as paths often stretch long and fork off, but some of us do not want to be upon seemingly good paths that eventually lead to bad places.

I think you are confusing monotheistic with Abrahamic... most monotheistic First Nations don't have a "male deity". Most of the time (unless, I'm very much mistaken) the "great spirit" or "great mystery" is sexless,;though in storytelling a gender pronoun may be used when/if this force interacts directly with humanity.

Oftentimes these "great spirits" are not directly worshiped because they are distant mysterious forces. People deal with the more immediate spirits that they deal with daily. They certainly aren't worshiped in the way Abrahamics worship their deity but are more Pantheistic.

Not that I think that all or even most Nations were "monotheistic" but clearly some were and were so pre-contact. Pantheism is just as old as Animism and the two are often deeply intertwined.

I think claiming that all monotheism among the First Nations came from contact with Europeans is flawed, though I agree that contact clearly influenced many (if not all) nations in some way or another.

wa:do

Nashitheki · Apr 23, 2012

"I think you are confusing monotheistic with Abrahamic"

Not really, I'm thinking more of the belief of a great spirit influenced by introduced Abrahamic monotheism.

Ever heard of a Haudenosaunee named Handsome Lake ?

painted wolf · Apr 23, 2012

Na****heki said:
"I think you are confusing monotheistic with Abrahamic"

Not really, I'm thinking more of the belief of a great spirit influenced by introduced Abrahamic monotheism.

Ever heard of a Haudenosaunee named Handsome Lake ?

Yes, but that doesn't mean that every monotheistic belief among the first nations is the result of people like Handsome Lake.

Many monotheistic concepts among the First Nations are not like Christianity.

wa:do

Nashitheki · Apr 23, 2012

painted wolf said:
Yes, but that doesn't mean that every monotheistic belief among the first nations is the result of people like Handsome Lake.

Many monotheistic concepts among the First Nations are not like Christianity.

wa:do

Not the result of Handsome Lake's revival, but an example. Somewhat like how the western tribes viewed Jack Wilson or Wovoka as a messiah. Before his 'vision' Wilson was said to have had a lot of contact with Christian missionaries. Then there was Tenskwatawa who proclaimed himself as prophet of the great spirit and went as far as having traditional medicine people executed for being witches and burning sacred Shawnee medicine bundles.

Remember these were scary times for tribal people many who were either defeated or else fighting a running battle. Out of desperation they looked for rescue, a way out, answers and salvation. That hope long in coming sometimes becomes a breeding ground for false messiahs, prophets and charlatons whose dellusions and sway would usually prove disasterous for their deceived followers. Like Tippecanoe and what happen to Bigfoot's band.

painted wolf · Apr 23, 2012

Na****heki said:
Not the result of Handsome Lake's revival, but an example. Somewhat like how the western tribes viewed Jack Wilson or Wovoka as a messiah. Before his 'vision' Wilson was said to have had a lot of contact with Christian missionaries. Then there was Tenskwatawa who proclaimed himself as prophet of the great spirit and went as far as having traditional medicine people executed for being witches and burning sacred Shawnee medicine bundles.

Remember these were scary times for tribal people many who were either defeated or else fighting a running battle. Out of desperation they looked for rescue, a way out, answers and salvation. That hope long in coming sometimes becomes a breeding ground for false messiahs, prophets and charlatons whose dellusions and sway would usually prove disasterous for their deceived followers. Like Tippecanoe and what happen to Bigfoot's band.

Like I said... not all monotheistic beliefs among First Nations can be traced to such men and women.

I agree those were terrifying times, but in many First Nations "monotheistic" traditions predate contact with Europeans or are significantly different from European monotheism to be unlikely to be the result of contact. ( I'm using a pantheistic view of "monotheism" rather than an Abrahamic deity driven concept. )

I'm not arguing that contact did produce a lot of these short-lived prophetic religious movements... but by and large these movements burnt out quickly and didn't fundamentally change the traditional core belief structure (ie. is there a pantheistic/monotheistic "great spirit" concept).
Wovoka didn't end traditional Lakota religion... I would argue that the fact that the Lakota already had a "great mystery/spirit" concept in Wakan Tanka made them likely to accept Wovoka's words where other nations like the Navajo did not.
The Navajo strongly rejected Wovoka, no matter how much his followers tried to sway them. Their core religious identity was too different from Wovoka's ideas.
Wovoka was at core a strong monotheist while the Navajo are not, that is a big thing to change.
The same with Handsome Lake and the Iroquois.

wa:do

Nashitheki · Apr 24, 2012

painted wolf said:
Like I said... not all monotheistic beliefs among First Nations can be traced to such men and women.

I agree those were terrifying times, but in many First Nations "monotheistic" traditions predate contact with Europeans or are significantly different from European monotheism to be unlikely to be the result of contact. ( I'm using a pantheistic view of "monotheism" rather than an Abrahamic deity driven concept. )

I'm not arguing that contact did produce a lot of these short-lived prophetic religious movements... but by and large these movements burnt out quickly and didn't fundamentally change the traditional core belief structure (ie. is there a pantheistic/monotheistic "great spirit" concept).
Wovoka didn't end traditional Lakota religion... I would argue that the fact that the Lakota already had a "great mystery/spirit" concept in Wakan Tanka made them likely to accept Wovoka's words where other nations like the Navajo did not.
The Navajo strongly rejected Wovoka, no matter how much his followers tried to sway them. Their core religious identity was too different from Wovoka's ideas.
Wovoka was at core a strong monotheist while the Navajo are not, that is a big thing to change.
The same with Handsome Lake and the Iroquois.

wa:do

So enlighten me on which pre-contact tribes were pantheistic - having a pantheon of gods with a ruling god ? My people and the rest of the Algonquians have no ancient beliefs of such a pantheon. I do have traditional friends from Qualla who do not acknowledge a such a pantheon of deities. The same holds true with a traditional Yanktonai I know as well. I'll have to get in touch with my Catawba and Lumbee friends to get their take on this as well.

I have heard of some unrecognized groups that have recently sprung up, going on about a great spirit.

I had always thought Wakan Tanka is a great mystery, a mystery too great to fathom, not a great spirit, but a combination of different goings on.

painted wolf · Apr 24, 2012

Na****heki said:
So enlighten me on which pre-contact tribes were pantheistic - having a pantheon of gods with a ruling god ?

Pantheism does not have a pantheon of gods (are you thinking of polytheism?) nor does "ruling god". Pantheist means "all god" or that everything is a part of creation/god

Most (but not all) traditionally animistic cultures also blend pantheism... such as the Cherokee, Lakota and Anishinabe.

Pantheists can also be Monist or Dulist and can have a vague "great mystery" concept that pervades everything or can have a more "great spirit/deity/oversoul" concept or something inbetween. Generally such a being is rather distant and unknowable, or can only be interacted through specific ceremonies by certain people or specific societies.

Pantheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My people and the rest of the Algonquians have no ancient beliefs of such a pantheon. I do have traditional friends from Qualla who do not acknowledge a such a pantheon of deities. The same holds true with a traditional Yanktonai I know as well. I'll have to get in touch with my Catawba and Lumbee friends to get their take on this as well.

Again, you will note I did not say all... I said some. There is a wonderful diversity among the 300+ First Nations of North America. No one Nation sums up everyone.

I have heard of some unrecognized groups that have recently sprung up, going on about a great spirit.

I'm sure... there are a lot of unrecognized groups out there. Great spirit is a catchy term to give yourself some legitimacy.

I personally avoid the term "great spirit" and use Creator (even though that isn't fully accurate either

)... who's name in Cherokee I never use as it is a sacred word that I'm not privy to.
I'm not Keetoowah and will never claim to be.

When I do use the term "great spirit" it's only as a general concept and always in quotation marks because it is a term rife with problems, even if the general concept is fairly understood.

I had always thought Wakan Tanka is a great mystery, a mystery too great to fathom, not a great spirit, but a combination of different goings on.

From those I've talked with, the Wakan Tanka is part of everything and apart from everything... which is a Pantheistic (and that fuzzy pantheistic/monotheistic category) concept.
Again, not monotheistic in the way Christians are... more in the way Hindus or Buddhists are. (Which itself is a fun discussion to have some time)
There is one "something" that unites everything not necessarily a specific deity.

Again, animism and pantheism are often blended concepts and it's uncommon that you find one that is fully absent the other. I only know a few examples of cultures that are exclusively animist or pantheist.

Religion is a very complex set of ideas and no one word can adequately sum up any religion. Even the general terms used "Monotheistic" "Pantheistic" "Polytheistic" "Animist" have a lot of interplay between themselves.

"Monotheist" for example does not mean that you need a single solidly defined deity, just look at how Christians try to deal the the idea of "the trinity". It's three gods... but it's really just one god that talks to itself. :shrug:

wa:do

Nashitheki · Apr 24, 2012

I mean not to debate, but to offer response to the original post concerning the question of monotheistic tribes. I'm sure we all have our own takes supported by different sources of information.

painted wolf · Apr 24, 2012

Na****heki said:
I mean not to debate, but to offer response to the original post concerning the question of monotheistic tribes. I'm sure we all have our own takes supported by different sources of information.

I'm sure... and please don't the fact that I disagree with you on some of this for ill. I certainly respect your position even if I don't fully agree with it.

Like I said, life without differences is boring.

wa:do

ps... I apologize if I came across aggressively... after so long on this forum, I've gotten accustomed to debate.

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