Are Muslims "Saved"?

johnnys4life said:

To worship a man or a statue instead of the living God, how could that be anything but idol worship? It is not the same as Christian worship since Jesus and God the Father are one. Our God, therefore, I cannot imagine that He is not jealous over those who pray to Buddha, even if they do some good in the world.

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I just wanted to gently check this statement, since it puzzles me. I don't think that anyone has argued that someone is praying to a man or a statue. In fact, couldn't the same thing be said for choosing to see the Trinity as...well, a Trinity? How is anyones' concept of god more or less 'living' than another persons? Isn't Spirit/ Goddess/ God secure enough in themselves to be not jealous over how They are worshipped? By implying that the Christian God becomes angry when when He is held sacred as posessing horns, an elephant trunk, being a spider, having three hundred legs, or actually being *insert gasp here* a She, I think that is doing any religion that chooses to believe this of their diety a great disservice.

I think that is doing any religion that chooses to believe this of their diety a great disservice.

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Well God sent gave the Ten commandments to Moses, which one clearly states not to worship anything other than Him.

johnnys4life said:

I am finding it a bit difficult to believe that the Catholic church believes as you do.

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1281 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16).

This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.....

Peace,
Scott

j4l,

Well, we were getting close, now you've run away with things....

First things, first:

Had a lot of fun looking all of this up, actually, thank you for giving me an excuse to.

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You are quite welcome...... that's kinda the point of all this.

As far as I have heard, the belief that all gods are the same is more of a unitarian or a new age thing than a Christian one.

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Now it is clear you just don't understand what I am writing......... there is ONLY ONE GOD......... others that worship God differently than we do or think that God is something else ARE WRONG (in my opinion).......... but just because they worship God (as you and I understand him) and have not come to the light that is Jesus Christ, I just don't think that they are going to hell.......... get it? I don't believe in New Age garbage or anything of the sort..... .

In answer to your question, yes I believe I have access to the Holy Spirit too.

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Never said you didn't......... go back and re-read my post......... we ALL have the Holy Spirit as baptized Christians, but there is a big difference in the power of that Spirit....

So what about now, do I preach lies, hatred?

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I think we should end this thread here.......... you are getting too upset....... remember, YOU asked the questions, and now that you are getting answers you don't understand you put up a strawman like this......

Peace be with you,
Scott

SOGFPP said:

j4l,

Well, we were getting close, now you've run away with things....

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On the contrary, I think I know a lot more clearly what you are saying here, and how it parallels the teachings of the Catholic church. I may not agree 100%, but I have certainly learned something. Thank you.

SOGFPP said:

Now it is clear you just don't understand what I am writing......... there is ONLY ONE GOD......... others that worship God differently than we do or think that God is something else ARE WRONG (in my opinion).......... but just because they worship God (as you and I understand him) and have not come to the light that is Jesus Christ, I just don't think that they are going to hell.......... get it? I don't believe in New Age garbage or anything of the sort..... .

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Well I get where you are coming from now at least, I am still not sure what to think, really. I was always taught the Bible is the inspired living word of God, and so I mostly base my opion on that. My point was just that I don't see reason not to preach the gospel to people in that circumstance. And that's where the Catholic church and I differ hugely.

SOGFPP said:

Never said you didn't......... go back and re-read my post......... we ALL have the Holy Spirit as baptized Christians, but there is a big difference in the power of that Spirit....

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What I understood of what you said, and maybe I'm wrong because I don't get the Catholic perspective on this quite yet, was that I am not qualified to talk about the Bible because I do not have the same Holy Spirit as Jesus had. Well, unless there are 2 different Holy Spirits, or 2 different levels of the gift of the Holy Spirit, then I don't see how you could say I do have it and yet I don't. But I will find out more about what Catholics actually believe on that on my own some way I suppose.

SOGFPP said:

I think we should end this thread here.........

SOGFPP said:

Gee....okay. If that's what you wanna do. It's gotta end some time.

SOGFPP said:

you are getting too upset....... ....

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Not a bit. Just stating my case. I only asked if I was lying because as you know no one who is lying can be speaking by the Holy Spirit.

SOGFPP said:

now that you are getting answers you don't understand you put up a strawman like this...... ....

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In the first place, I am glad to get answers I don't understand, that gives me the challenge of trying to understand them. It's quite interesting. And in the second place, what's a strawman? Lol, maybe I'm out of it but I've never heard that word before except maybe in The Wizard of Oz.
I guess I am on my own for the rest of my questions, which is alright.
So, peace to you too then Scott. Thanks for all the fine debate. You seem like a decent enough person. And umm, keep following that yellow brick road. Lol.

Johnny's girl

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My point was just that I don't see reason not to preach the gospel to people in that circumstance. And that's where the Catholic church and I differ hugely.

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One final point........... I believe (Catholics believe) the Gospel should be preached to all and in all circumstances........ I never said that we don't.
There is a big difference between giving someone the Good News and telling them they are going to hell......... I hope you come to realize that.

FYI...... a "strawman" is when you state your own opinion contrary to the facts provided and debate as if the other person stated it as a fact.

By the way, I am happy to keep answering questions, provided you are not getting upset...... I am just worried that you were...... it's a Christian thing... I am sure you understand ....

Peace,
Scott

SOGFPP said:

Notice how kindly Ronald can sin......
Lie #1 The the point of this thread is that I believe MUSLIMS can be saved....... pay attention before you chime in.
Lie #2 Never said or implied that Ronald....... your lies are a fine example of "THE WAY".

Sheesh...... I am praying for you........

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Scott, what did I transgress, your law? Just how did I sin? Who is the liar?
You might read what you post! Maybe you didn't intend to imply that only those of your faith were going to heaven! But you in fact did!
When you change your name to Rex, you can rule the forum!
The Rightwing Christian Republicans and yourself are very fast and loose with the truth as you see it. Both really live up to Yeshua's "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Love your kindness. Thank you, for the prayers you promised. I for you, likewise, for sure.

SOGFPP,

Hi,

I have a question for you. You say that according to Our Holy Catholic Church, anybody who does not know the Church but is inspired by Grace is saved.

Good deal

My question is this, someone who knows about the Church, blesses the Church, may even help the Church, but does not subject him/herself to the Church. The person may agree with Church tenets that they are truth, but does not act on all principles. May not attend Church and hold confessions, though may do other things. May even not be a Christian according to The Holy Church's definition. Though still blesses it and believes in its authority, but does not subject oneself to it and remain under whatever other religion, though does not do anything the Holy Church finds unlawful.

What is the judgement of that person? Is the person saved, though s/he knows the Church and acts according to many principles, but not all. Yet, believes in the authority of the Holy Catholic Church, but does not subject oneself to it?

Thanks

Ronald,

Ronald said:

You might read what you post! Maybe you didn't intend to imply that only those of your faith were going to heaven! But you in fact did!

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Well, let's take a look.....

SOGFPP said:

I would just like to say that while I respect your opinion, I just don't feel you are qualified to give your opinion to other Christians...... In the Bible, Jesus chose those who would be His Apostles and teach after he was gone. He gave those Apostles the Gift of the Holy Spirit...... those Apostles chose successors and, by the laying of hands, passed on the Gift of the Spirit. To be in a BIBLICAL position to teach faith and morals you must prove that you posess the SAME Holy Spirit passed on by Christ........ can you?

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Ronald, the entire point of this debate between johnnys4life and I is that I believe MUSLIMS ( who are not Catholic .... just FYI) CAN BE SAVED..........

How in the heck did you twist that around to "only those of your faith were going to heaven!"..... Not even close my friend.

That post I quoted above also shows that what I was speaking about is the teaching office of the Catholic Church....... NOT SALVATION.

The Rightwing Christian Republicans and yourself are very fast and loose with the truth as you see it

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Again, a wonderful example of your faith.......

Hopefully this post is plain enough for you to understand how wrong you were and apologize.

I'll be holding my breath.

Scott

booboo,

What a great question! Thanks.... I like the tough ones........

What is the judgement of that person?

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First and foremost, it is my understanding that the Catholic Church today does not publicly profess that ANY particular person is going to hell. That judgement is reserved for Jesus.
We can guess that some (Judas, Hitler, etc..) are using the "express lane" to get into hell, but the Church's focus is teaching, not judgement.

OK, that being said....... here come the unofficial version (mine )....

booboo said:

My question is this, someone who knows about the Church, blesses the Church, may even help the Church, but does not subject him/herself to the Church. The person may agree with Church tenets that they are truth, but does not act on all principles.

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Well, I would have to know a lot more about the person to give an educated opinion....... as a general rule, I would think the person INSANE or somehow emotionally unstable (abused) and thus, not totally sinful.

What Church "tenents" would this person not act on?
Baptism?
Confirmation?
Real presence and the Eucharist?
Un-confessed sins?

Without a contributing factor (anti-Catholic spouse, victim of clergy abuse etc) I would have to guess that it is sinful to take for granted the grace of God found in the Catholic faith..........when Jesus cured 10 lepers and only one came back to thank him.... Jesus said "Where are the other nine?"........ to spit in the face of the Sacramental gifts and relationship with Christ offered by the Catholic Church is akin to the denial of Christ's power....

But....... that's just my opinion......

Peace be with you in the HOLY NAME OF JESUS!
Scott

You also called me a liar and a sinner, do you apologize? no!
You said to johnnys4life "You must prove that you posess the same Holy Spirit passed on by Christ."
Please show the scripture reference of Peter passing on to the Roman Catholic Church, the Ruach Ha Qodesh! Apostolic succession!

Ronald,

You also called me a liar and a sinner, do you apologize? no!

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Well, yes I do. I am sorry if I offended you.

My post was about the SALVATION OF MUSLIMS

...... read that again

......... now one more time.

Good.

To take that information and claim that I implied only Catholics are saved is either a lie or ignorance.

If you did not lie, then I apologize......... ignorance is not a sin.

Peace,
Scott

What do you call this Rope-a-dope?
I wasn't offended by your ignorant remark, it's like "are you still beating your wife?"
I asked what law did I transgress? That was a sin. You as always TWIST the truth. AS YOU SEE IT.
I for one do not accept your claim of "Apostolic Succession". Show me your Biblical authority. If you can.
Offended, No! Got my Irish up! Yes.
You can't trash me then, make a lame excuse of an apoligy, and claim "PEACE". That dog won't hunt!

Thanks SOGFPP,

I just wanted to know a rough answer. You have delivered that. I wanted to clear up where the Holy Catholic Church stands in some issues, not about a particular person.


Thanks

You're welcome booboo.

Scott

Ronald, I can understand if you have a disagreement with Scott, but what have the right wing republicans ever done to you. I mean, besides electing Bush.

lol. hillarious. ya. well we are kinda off topic. as a chirstian fundamentalist, i wouldnt believe that muslims are saved because they dont believe in Jesus as the one and only. but as a regular christian, i see no harm because they believe hes a prophet and generally follow his teachings.

The Sages of Israel say "The righteous of all nations will share in the Olam habah/world to come." That IS ALL NATIONS!

Gerani1248, regular Christians don't believe Jesus is just a prophet. They believe He is the Son of God. They also believe through Him is salvation, because He has promised to be forgiving in their judgement in the afterlife.

As far as Muslims are concerned, they have anti-Christian beliefs. In that respect, those who are "real" Muslims will not enter heaven. However, if you are non-Christian, you shouldn't feel threatened from Christians:
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, lover your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven....For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" Mat 5:43-46

In regard to DontFearMe's previous response to one of my previous posts, I can contradict every claim he made about Islam, but I won't because I don't want to drag the discussion on. However, I direct you to learn more about the culture of Muslims: investigate (on the Internet) the history of Muslim countries' handling of Christians in the Middle East and surrounding areas, such as in Lebanon, Armenia, Greece, Russia, Turkey, India, Egypt, Iraq, etc. You will find that Muslims' idea of tolerance is not so appealing.

The catholic church teaching us about Muslims being saved? I'm not Catholic but it was the Catholic church that was responisble for the Crusades and the inqusition. so I guess the Catholic answer is KILL THEM ALL? I could be wrong let me know if I am