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The global flood: The sorting of fossils and sediments

outhouse

Atheistically
I don't have access to a pc and I gotta work after the holiday, but I will try to discuss it with you if you like as much as I am able.

Buddy, friend :)

I would never steer you wrong in your pursuit of knowledge.


If you go to websites that back theist you are not getting accurate kolwedge or science.


For information on science you go to science websites or atleast wiki that plays both sides..


the science side has many theist. My brother in law is very religious and is a bioogy proffessor and author yet he doesnt dismiss any science
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
What does the fossil record teach us about evolution?


fossils1.gif

What does the fossil record really teach concerning the theory of evolution? Do the fossils demonstrate the progression from simple structures to complex organisms? The following facts need to be considered:

  • Abrupt appearance of animals. All the different, basic kinds of animals appear abruptly and fully functional in the strata - with no proof of ancestors. "Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them." (David Kitts, paleontologist and Evolutionist) Darwin was embarrassed by the fossil record. It contains no proof for macroevolution of animals.
  • Plants appear abruptly, too. Evolutionist Edred J.H. Corner: "… I still think that to the unprejudiced, the fossil record of plants is in favor of special creation." (Evolution in Contemporary Thought, 1961, p.97) Scientists have been unable to find an Evolutionary history (beginning to end) for even one group of modern plants.
  • Animals unchanged. Contrary to common belief, most fossils are not of extinct types of animals. Most fossils are very similar (and often totally identical) to creatures living today. It is said there are many more living species of animals than there are types known only as fossils. If Evolution is true, one may wonder why the case is not just the reverse! Evolutionary history is supposed to be filled with temporary, intermediate stages of Evolution, from amoeba to man.
  • Sufficient fossils. There is a continuing lack of evidence for Evolution despite an enormous number of fossils. Although scientists will continue to discover new varieties of fossil animals and plants, it is generally agreed that the millions of fossils already discovered (and the sediments already explored) provide a reliable indication of which way the evidence is going. That is, there will continue to be little or no fossil evidence found to support Evolutionism.
  • Fast strata formation. There is increasing evidence that many sedimentary rocks, which some thought took thousands or millions of years to accumulate, almost certainly were deposited in only months, days, hours, or minutes.
  • Rapid coal formation. The old Evolutionary theory about coal forming in swamps is wrong. There is increasing evidence that massive coal deposits were formed in deep flood waters. Various coal layers in the U.S. consist mainly of sheets of tree bark abraded from huge masses of uprooted trees. The bark layers were buried in mud and carbonized into coal. Coal formation is relatively quick when heat is applied.
  • Fossilization requires very special conditions. Dinosaur and other fossils could not have formed in the way suggested by most Evolutionary books. Animals almost never fossilize unless they are buried quickly and deeply - before scavengers, bacteria and erosion reduce them to dust. Such conditions are highly unusual. In almost all cases, the very existence of the fossils, in the types and numbers discovered, strongly indicates catastrophic conditions were involved in their burial and preservation. Without such conditions, there seems to be no plausible way to explain their existence. Huge dinosaurs, huge schools of fish, and many diverse animals are found entombed by massive muddy sediments which hardened into rock. Almost all fossils are found in water-laid sediments.
  • Wrong order for evolution. It has been reported that "80 to 85% of Earth's land surface does not have even 3 geologic periods appearing in 'correct' consecutive order" for Evolution.
The fossil record does not provide evidence in support for Evolution.
"Fossils are a great embarrassment to Evolutionary theory and offer strong support for the concept of Creation." (Dr. Gary Parker, Ph.D., Biologist/paleontologist and former Evolutionist)



LOL

They believe kids rode dinosaurs.

They also only go back to the dinosaurs and don't realize there was another huge group of animals BEFORE the dinosaurs.

Before the Dinosaurs - Pelycosaurs, Archosaurs, and Therapsids

The Story of the Reptiles that Preceded the Dinosaurs

Like archeologists discovering the ruins of a previously unknown civilization buried deep beneath an ancient city, dinosaur enthusiasts are sometimes astonished to learn that entirely different kinds of reptiles once ruled the earth, tens of millions of years before famous dinosaurs like Tyrannosaurus Rex, Velociraptor and Stegosaurus. For approximately 120 million years--from the Carboniferous to the middle Triassic periods--terrestrial life was dominated by the pelycosaurs, archosaurs, and therapsids (the so-called "mammal-like reptiles") that preceded the dinosaurs. (See a complete, A to Z list of non-dinosaur reptiles, a gallery of therapsid pictures, a gallery of archosaur pictures, and a gallery of pelycosaur pictures.)
Of course, before there could be archosaurs (much less full-blown dinosaurs), nature had to evolve the first genuine reptile.

Pelycosaurs, Archosaurs and Therapsids - All About the Pelycosaurs, Archosaurs and Therapsids that Preceded the Dinosaurs

DIMETRODON grandis

"Dimetrodon - ancestor of the mammals belonged to the family called Pelycosaurs, which had both mammal and reptile characteristics. Dimetrodon preceded the earliest dinosaurs by more than 40 million years but physically it looked a lot like one. "

Was NOT a dinosaur and was the top predator during the Early Permian period. If it wasn't for the way he evolved you quite likely wouldn't have a brain. He was the first to evolve jaw muscles that allowed brain size to increase. Before him, the jaw muscles of animals didn't let the brain evolve bigger. So they leave out the whole permian period and the whole permian period extintion of 95% of all life on earth and IT EVOLVED BACK TO THE DINOSAURS>


focus_dimetrodon.jpg










Lets start with their first lie.

" All the different, basic kinds of animals appear abruptly and fully functional in the strata - with no proof of ancestors. "Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them."


'Missing Links' Reveal Truth About Evolution

With the 200th anniversary of the birth of Charles Darwin this week, people around the world are celebrating his role as the father of evolutionary theory.

Events and press releases are geared, in part, to combat false claims made by some who would discredit the theory.

One frequently cited "hole" in the theory: Creationists claim there are no transitional fossils, aka "missing links."

Biologists and paleontologists, among others, know this claim is false.





PHOTOS: 7 Major "Missing Links" Since Darwin


Tiktaalik: The "Fishapod"

Illustration by Zina Deretsky, National Science Foundation
For the 200th anniversary of Charles Darwin's birth (February 12, 2009), National Geographic News asked leading scientists for their picks of the most important fossils that show evolution in action—seven of which are presented here, starting with this "fishapod."

Discovered in Arctic Canada in 2004, 375 million-year-old Tiktaalik had not only gills and scales but traits of a tetrapod (four-legged land animal), including limblike fins, ribs, a flexible neck, and a croc-shaped head.

Why it matters: Tiktaalik is seen as evidence of the period when our aquatic ancestors began moving ashore—along with other fins-to-limbs fossils, such as Acanthostega (Acanthostega picture), the most primitive known tetrapod.

The discoveries of these and other "missing link" species have helped dispel what Darwin called perhaps "the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory" of evolution--the former lack of transitional fossil species.
February 11, 2009


PHOTOS: 7 Major "Missing Links" Since Darwin


So their first statements are lies.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
What is the error of this statement?: (besides its from icr)

Beveled surfaces below, within, and above thick strata sequences provide evidence of rapid flood and post-flood erosion. Fossils provide universal evidence of rapid burial, and even agonizing death.
Rapid burial is necessary to entomb organisms as the first step in fossilization. The abundant marine invertebrate fossils throughout the entire fossil strata demonstrate extraordinary burial conditions.
Polystrate fossil logs (tree trunks in vertical position running through several sedimentary layers) are common in the fossil layers and are clear evidence of rapid burial.
Common vertebrate fossils show rigor mortis and postures indicative of asphyxiation—sudden smothering of the animal (e.g., Archaeopteryx and dinosaur fossils in the quarry at Dinosaur National Monument).
 

outhouse

Atheistically
What is the error of this statement?: (besides its from icr)

Beveled surfaces below, within, and above thick strata sequences provide evidence of rapid flood and post-flood erosion. Fossils provide universal evidence of rapid burial, and even agonizing death.
Rapid burial is necessary to entomb organisms as the first step in fossilization. The abundant marine invertebrate fossils throughout the entire fossil strata demonstrate extraordinary burial conditions.
Polystrate fossil logs (tree trunks in vertical position running through several sedimentary layers) are common in the fossil layers and are clear evidence of rapid burial.
Common vertebrate fossils show rigor mortis and postures indicative of asphyxiation—sudden smothering of the animal (e.g., Archaeopteryx and dinosaur fossils in the quarry at Dinosaur National Monument).


what is the exact date of your flood?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
About 4,200 years ago.


why isnt there a break in civilizations in china that had writing at that time??

same for Aborigines?

same for africans?


why is there no break in egyptian culture and their writing at that time??

Same for teh sumerians, why is their no break in their civilization??






Why was there a flood of the Euphrates river 4,900 years ago in the levant where noahs story originated and many flood stories originated from that use the same verbage as hebrews used. ???

Take into account hebrews as a culture only go back to 1200 BCE thats 3200 years ago. They would have no knowledge at all of a flood other then oral myths handed down.


Bud, that is 6 questions you need to answer for us.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
why isnt there a break in civilizations in china that had writing at that time??

same for Aborigines?

same for africans?


why is there no break in egyptian culture and their writing at that time??

Same for teh sumerians, why is their no break in their civilization??






Why was there a flood of the Euphrates river 4,900 years ago in the levant where noahs story originated and many flood stories originated from that use the same verbage as hebrews used. ???

Take into account hebrews as a culture only go back to 1200 BCE thats 3200 years ago. They would have no knowledge at all of a flood other then oral myths handed down.


Bud, that is 6 questions you need to answer for us.
I don't have all the answers, friend, I just believe the Bible. I believe those civilizations were after the flood and that there were perhaps ten kings in Mesopotamia before the flood. I don't know anything about the Euphrates.
 

RedOne77

Active Member
What is the error of this statement?: (besides its from icr)

Beveled surfaces below, within, and above thick strata sequences provide evidence of rapid flood and post-flood erosion. Fossils provide universal evidence of rapid burial, and even agonizing death.
Rapid burial is necessary to entomb organisms as the first step in fossilization. The abundant marine invertebrate fossils throughout the entire fossil strata demonstrate extraordinary burial conditions.
Polystrate fossil logs (tree trunks in vertical position running through several sedimentary layers) are common in the fossil layers and are clear evidence of rapid burial.
Common vertebrate fossils show rigor mortis and postures indicative of asphyxiation—sudden smothering of the animal (e.g., Archaeopteryx and dinosaur fossils in the quarry at Dinosaur National Monument).

I'm no geologist, but I don't see anything that stands out as blatantly wrong. However these things don't support a global flood, let alone Noah's deluge.

Local rivers and lakes flood all the time leaving a wake of rapid burial behind them. Polystrate fossils go through several layers, but it doesn't take a global flood to bury them, it just takes good mudslide, and so on.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
I'm no geologist, but I don't see anything that stands out as blatantly wrong. However these things don't support a global flood, let alone Noah's deluge.

Local rivers and lakes flood all the time leaving a wake of rapid burial behind them. Polystrate fossils go through several layers, but it doesn't take a global flood to bury them, it just takes good mudslide, and so on.
Hey, thanks for replying to the actual content of my post, greatly appreciated! But I have a question. How could a mudslide produce a polystrate fossil that goes through several layers of rock with each layer representing millions of years?
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Agnostic75 said:
Message to javajo: I can easily find hundreds of opposing experts for every creationist expert that you can find. So, quote against quote will not settle anything. I suggest that we discuss one issue at a time, starting with my opening post. I will pick one issue, we can discuss it in detail, and then you pick an issue, and we can discuss it in detail. After a few months of discussions, you might admit that the only evidence that you really have that a global flood occurred is faith.

javajo said:
I don't have access to a pc and I gotta work after the holiday, but I will try to discuss it with you if you like as much as I am able.

Just let me know when you are ready to start discuss the sorting of fossils and sediments in detail.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
javajo said:
Well, what about those polystrate fossils? Those sound pretty interesting.

I started this thread, not you. As I told you in one of my previous posts, I can pick one topic, we can discuss it in detail, and then you can pick a topic, and we can discuss it in detail. Then, we can discuss many other topics that relate to the sorting of fossils and sediments.

If the only geologists who accept the global flood theory are inerrantists, which I suspect is the case, that would suggest that their scientific positions have been influenced by their theological positions, which means that they did not conduct objective research. Who except for an inerrantist would accept the global flood theory? Apparently, practically no one, which indicates that you are wasting your time.

Please make a post in my thread on the empty tomb at the General Religious Debates forum.
 
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javajo

Well-Known Member
I started this thread, not you. As I told you in one of my previous posts, I can pick one topic, we can discuss it in detail, and then you can pick a topic, and we can discuss it in detail. Then, we can discuss many other topics that relate to the sorting of fossils and sediments.
Roger that!

If the only geologists who accept the global flood theory are inerrantists, which I suspect is the case, that would suggest that their scientific positions have been influenced by their theological positions, which means that they did not conduct objective research.
Yeah, that's what you will run into with me. I firmly believe in the Bible as God's Word and I believe it literally and completely. So, like the scientists of the Reformation, I start with the Bible and it does influence how I look at the world. I believe the world is real and so we can conduct experiments and examine it, but with origins there is more speculation as to just what happened. I think believing the Bible while looking at the past will lead to more truth as to what actually happened, which is just the opposite of science. But I'm not a scientist. So, I'll do my best to discuss stuff with you, can't promise anything great though.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Agnostic75 said:
I started this thread, not you. As I told you in one of my previous posts, I can pick one topic, we can discuss it in detail, and then you can pick a topic, and we can discuss it in detail. Then, we can discuss many other topics that relate to the sorting of fossils and sediments.

Javajo said:
Roger that!

Just let me know when you are ready. We have lots of things to discuss in detail about the sorting of fossils and sediments. Then we can move on to the young earth theory, and then on to creationism. I am very patient. I have debated conservative Christians for years, and I never give up when I believe that I have good arguments.

Please make a post in my thread on the empty tomb at the General Religious Debates forum.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member




Just let me know when you are ready. We have lots of things to discuss in detail about the sorting of fossils and sediments. Then we can move on to the young earth theory, and then on to creationism. I am very patient. I have debated conservative Christians for years, and I never give up when I believe that I have good arguments.

Please make a post in my thread on the empty tomb at the General Religious Debates forum.
Go ahead and discuss something then, I am not a debater but I will check out what you say.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I don't have all the answers, friend, I just believe the Bible. I believe those civilizations were after the flood and that there were perhaps ten kings in Mesopotamia before the flood. I don't know anything about the Euphrates.


well you have a belief

I only ask you search knowledge and try and find those answers since your in a debate post backing YEC
 

RedOne77

Active Member
Hey, thanks for replying to the actual content of my post, greatly appreciated! But I have a question. How could a mudslide produce a polystrate fossil that goes through several layers of rock with each layer representing millions of years?

Great question, the first time I heard about them I thought that it was fake as I'm a hard-core evolutionist and an old earther, then I was confused when I realized that it wasn't a hoax.

As it turns out, the various layers don't represent millions or even thousands of years, the strata that polystrate fossils go through are all of the same basic age as determined by things like radiometric dating. Not all deposits and sediments form layers gradually, sometimes it happens quickly in a few days or a few years. Trees are sturdy enough to remain intact for a few years, and even decades given the right conditions, after they die which is enough time for various processes to bury them relatively rapidly.

As I'm not too keen on geology, I'll let wiki take over from here: Polystrate fossil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In geology, such fossils are referred to as upright fossils, trunks, or trees. Brief periods of rapid sedimentation favor their formation.[2][4] Upright fossils are typically found in layers associated with an actively subsiding coastal plain or rift basin, or with the accumulation of volcanic material around a periodically erupting stratovolcano. Typically, this period of rapid sedimentation was followed by a period of time, decades to thousands of years long, characterized by very slow or no accumulation of sediments. In river deltas and other coastal plain settings, rapid sedimentation is often the end result of a brief period of accelerated subsidence of an area of coastal plain relative to sea level caused by salt tectonics, global sea level rise, growth faulting, continental margin collapse, or some combination of these factors.[4] For example, geologists such as John W. F. Waldron and Michael C. Rygel have argued that the rapid burial and preservation of polystrate fossil trees found at Joggins, Nova Scotia was the direct result of rapid subsidence, caused by salt tectonics within an already subsiding pull apart basin, and resulting rapid accumulation of sediments.[5][6] The specific layers containing polystrate fossils occupy only a very limited fraction of the total area of any of these basins.[5][7]
 
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