Does enternal Hell make God a liar?

allright said:

Those being tormented in Revelation 14? Verse 9 - any man who worships the beast and his image and receives his the mark.

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What, then, is the beast and what is his image? What is the mark? These things are subject to interpretation, of course, but IMO the beast is the kingdoms of men; history's superpowers culminating with the Anglo / American or U.K. and U.S.A. Their image is the United Nations. The mark is the mark of man; 6 being incomplete so 6 / 60 / 600 being as incomplete as it gets. 666.

I can provide evidence for this in my own interpretation of all 22 chapters of Revelation if asked to do so, below is my interpretation of problematic verses in chapter 14, but lets not get sidetracked. Revelation chapter 14:9-11 doesn't imply the Bible's teaching of hell, which is actually an apostate Christian pagan influenced teaching. Otherwise there would be a great deal of contradiction as indicated by my earlier post on hell in this thread.

Revelation 14:1-4 - Only 144,000 celibate men will be saved. (Those who were not "defiled with women.")

At 2 Corinthians 11:2 Paul likened his spiritual brothers and sisters to a promised virgin as a prospective bride for Christ Jesus. Revelation 14:1-4 is a similar comparison. The 144,000 are spiritual virgins; men and women, not literal virgins but virgins in the sense of being undefiled by the harlot, Babylon the Great. False religion. So when Jesus told Peter, who was married, that he would follow him Peter's literal virginity wasn't an issue. (John 13:36 / Mark 1:30)

Revelation 14:8 - "She made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

Here fornication has a symbolic application to a spiritual fornication similar to 2 Kings 9:22 / Hosea 6:10. Revelation 17:18 reveals the woman, the harlot that is Babylon the Great, as being over the kingdoms of earth. This is false religion. She gets her name Babylon from where most of the religious apostate teachings originated. The primary teachings of modern day Christendom, for example, comes, not from God's word but from ancient Babylon. The nations, for a time, feed from her power and even become drunk on it, but they will turn on her and destroy her.

Revelation 14:10-11 - "The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever."

See Earlier Post in this thread on hell.

Revelation 14:14-18 - Jesus sits on a white cloud with a sharp sickle in his hand. When the angel tells him to reap, he kills all the people with his sickle.

The harvesting that is taking place in these verses consists of the removal of Jehovah's people from Satan's system in order to serve Jehovah and his appointed King, Christ Jesus. (Matthew 13:37-43) It is a gathering of those who are on the side of God. A separation. If ultimately this separation will result in the destruction of those who are not on God's side, because as God had told Adam sin results in death, then those who don't listen or care can only blame themselves for their own destruction.

Revelation 14:19-20 - "Blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles by the space of a thousand six hundred furlongs."

A furlong corresponded with a stadium. It equals one eighth of a Roman mile, or 606.75 feet (185 m) so 1,600 furlongs equals about 184 miles (296 km). We are talking about the destruction of nations of people. (Joel 3:12-14 / Zephaniah 3:8) If Jehovah's purpose for man was to live forever in peace and harmony, and it is, but his purpose is thwarted by hate, dishonesty, greed, murder and all manners of corruption then it is going to take the removal of a great army of people to achieve that purpose.

ForeverFaithful said:

I believe what the Bible says, and believe it is the source of our doctirnes

So I've been convinced Hell can not be (as in the traditional never ending conscious torment that is)

Malachi 4:1 "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them."

The "Lord saith" not Malachi or some no name Jew, this is GOD, are we to call him a liar?

Now the first post will likely link the handful(I could probably count them on my hand were as the above is the tip of the iceberg of Bible verses that support conditional immortality) but we also have to note the words Forever and Eternal are not always used in scripture to refer to things that never end but are usually referring to until God's will is done

Jonah 2:6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever. But you brought my life up from the pit, O LORD my God.
here Jonah is referring to his being in the whale, which was only 3 days

Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

and what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah?

2 Peter 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Some well then argue that We all have immortal souls, but were does it say that in the Bible?

1 Tim 6:16 (God) who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Does that mean the Bible is wrong on these points or God lied to us? Am I reading into these verse or otherwise being dishonest?

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The scriptures which you have referred to above which say things like "not a root or a branch will be left to them" or "by burning them to ashes" are in reference to God’s physical judgment on the earth, not the eternal state. It is important to differentiate when a scripture or passage is referring to the physical or eternal state. God’s word clearly states that everyone will be resurrected either to everlasting life or everlasting punishment

Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matt.25:45-46

In the resurrected state we will not be physical as we are now. Now physical things burn up and become ashes, but the scriptures show that in eternity the torment never ends.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Rev. 20:10

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:15

Jesus is called the Living Water in scripture because He is the source of life…eternal life. When a person rejects Christ they reject eternal life. As the verse shows below, although the rich man was suffering in flames, he was still in existence, but he was in torment. I believe his torment was not the literal burning of flames, but his being cut off from the Living water of Christ. This is the worst kind of torment.

“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ Luke 16:24

InChrist said:

In the resurrected state we will not be physical as we are now. Now physical things burn up and become ashes, but the scriptures show that in eternity the torment never ends.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Rev. 20:10

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So, you are saying that the Satan the Devil, a spirit, differing from the physical, can't literally burn in a literal lake of fire. The torment is eternal but not literal. It is eternal destruction. Is this correct?

Raymond Sheen said:

So, you are saying that the Satan the Devil, a spirit, differing from the physical, can't literally burn in a literal lake of fire. The torment is eternal but not literal. It is eternal destruction. Is this correct?

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I am not saying the torment is not real or eternal. I am only saying that it is not physical and that in this case which you referred to, Satan will not burn up and disappear or become non-existent.

InChrist said:

I am not saying the torment is not real or eternal. I am only saying that it is not physical and that in this case which you referred to, Satan will not burn up and disappear or become non-existent.

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We need to examine, then, what is exactly meant by torment. It comes from various formes of the Greek word basanizo over 20 times in the Greek Scriptures. It means to test by the proving stone (basanos) and so to examine or question by applying torture. To vex with grievous pains, being distressed of harassed. At Matthew 8:6 some translations have basanizo as tormented and others have "racked with pain." Lot's soul was "tormented" or "vexed" by the lawless. (2 Peter 2:8) Basanizo was used in application of the rough passage of a boat at Matthew 14:24 and Mark 6:48. At Matthew 18:34 basanistes is translated as "jailers" or, depending upon the translation; "tormentors," or "torturers."

The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia "Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as ‘torment’ (as it doubtless was), and the ‘tormentors’ need mean nothing more than jailers." (Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. V, p. 2999 See Matthew 8:29 / Luke 8:28.

Since hell is thrown into the lake of fire along with death the lake of fire is obviously symbolic of everlasting destruction. A literal everlasting destruction. The Bible itself explains that the lake of fire is "the second death." From the first death caused by sin there is the possibility of resurrection to life everlasting. From the second death there is no possibility.

Raymond Sheen said:

We need to examine, then, what is exactly meant by torment. It comes from various formes of the Greek word basanizo over 20 times in the Greek Scriptures. It means to test by the proving stone (basanos) and so to examine or question by applying torture. To vex with grievous pains, being distressed of harassed. At Matthew 8:6 some translations have basanizo as tormented and others have "racked with pain." Lot's soul was "tormented" or "vexed" by the lawless. (2 Peter 2:8) Basanizo was used in application of the rough passage of a boat at Matthew 14:24 and Mark 6:48. At Matthew 18:34 basanistes is translated as "jailers" or, depending upon the translation; "tormentors," or "torturers."

The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia "Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as ‘torment’ (as it doubtless was), and the ‘tormentors’ need mean nothing more than jailers." (Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. V, p. 2999 See Matthew 8:29 / Luke 8:28.

Since hell is thrown into the lake of fire along with death the lake of fire is obviously symbolic of everlasting destruction. A literal everlasting destruction. The Bible itself explains that the lake of fire is "the second death." From the first death caused by sin there is the possibility of resurrection to life everlasting. From the second death there is no possibility.

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Maybe you could clarify more clearly the point you are making or your perspective on everlasting torment and destruction.

ForeverFaithful said:

I believe what the Bible says, and believe it is the source of our doctirnes

So I've been convinced Hell can not be (as in the traditional never ending conscious torment that is)

Malachi 4:1 "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them."

The "Lord saith" not Malachi or some no name Jew, this is GOD, are we to call him a liar?

Now the first post will likely link the handful(I could probably count them on my hand were as the above is the tip of the iceberg of Bible verses that support conditional immortality) but we also have to note the words Forever and Eternal are not always used in scripture to refer to things that never end but are usually referring to until God's will is done

Jonah 2:6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever. But you brought my life up from the pit, O LORD my God.
here Jonah is referring to his being in the whale, which was only 3 days

Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

and what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah?

2 Peter 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Some well then argue that We all have immortal souls, but were does it say that in the Bible?

1 Tim 6:16 (God) who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Does that mean the Bible is wrong on these points or God lied to us? Am I reading into these verse or otherwise being dishonest?

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Ok you believe the Bible. Now do you believe it by the English, Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek words of it?

InChrist said:

Maybe you could clarify more clearly the point you are making or your perspective on everlasting torment and destruction.

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I'd be glad to. If you haven't had the opportunity to read my first post in this thread, a rather lengthy post about hell, that might clarify it for you if you have the chance to read it. But basically, I believe hell is a pagan teaching adopted much later by Christianity. It isn't a Bible teaching.

The soul isn't immortal, it dies, so it can't be tormented in hell. The lake of fire is symbolic for everlasting destruction. It isn't literal. Satan is destroyed along with his followers, those against Jehovah God. The meek inherit the earth and live forever upon it.

InChrist said:

The scriptures which you have referred to above which say things like "not a root or a branch will be left to them" or "by burning them to ashes" are in reference to God’s physical judgment on the earth,

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Common interpretation yet wasn't read as such until the pagan doctrine of the immortal soul(see 1 Tim 6:16 to see what Paul thought about immortality) seeped into Judaism, I don't see how else God would say the wicked will be destroyed (Ps. 68:2; 37:20.) Jesus clear said God would destroy the soul just like he would the Body in hell ( Matt 10:28) This would also make God a liar in that not all wicked have been destroyed from head to toe in their first life, so it has to be refering to the ressurection as sugested in Malachi 3:18

{quote]not the eternal state. It is important to differentiate when a scripture or passage is referring to the physical or eternal state. God’s word clearly states that everyone will be resurrected either to everlasting life or everlasting punishment

Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matt.25:45-46 [/quote]
Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

The punishment of Sodom and Gommorrah was eternal, no life lives their any more nor will it before the second comming but they are not conciously suffering as clearly stated in 2 Peter 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

In the resurrected state we will not be physical as we are now.

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Yes we will be, that's why Christ could eat and drink with the disciplices and why he said If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell Matt 5:29(Hell=Gehenne, the place where the Jews burnt dead bodies and flith)

Now physical things burn up and become ashes, but the scriptures show that in eternity the torment never ends.

Click to expand...

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Rev. 20:10

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:15

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Forever in the Bible means until God's will is done Jonah 2:6 refers to 3 days and 3 nights as Forever, in Deut. 23:3 refers to 10 generations, in many cases it refers simply to someones natural life 1 Sam 1:22,28 Exodus 21:6 Psalm48:14

The learned Archbishop Trench, in his authoritative work, Synonyms of the New Testament, remarks concerning the primary sense of aion: "In its primary, it signifies time, short or long, in its unbroken duration; oftentimes in classical Greek the duration of human life."
--- Pages 208, 209. (note found on Helltruth.com)

You'd also might like to note that the saved will eat from the tree of life, but what would the point be if we are already immortal?

Jesus is called the Living Water in scripture because He is the source of life…eternal life. When a person rejects Christ they reject eternal life. As the verse shows below, although the rich man was suffering in flames, he was still in existence, but he was in torment. I believe his torment was not the literal burning of flames, but his being cut off from the Living water of Christ. This is the worst kind of torment.

Click to expand...

“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ Luke 16:24

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That story was cllearly a parable for a number of reasons. Men are rewarded at Christ's second comming (Rev 22:11,12) and the lost at the end of the world (Matt 13:42). Until then they sleep in their graves (Job 17:13) To believe this Parable literally, you'd have to disreguard all of New Jerusalem and believe that Heaven is Abraham's Bosom. If it can't be taken entirely literally why are you drawing on it to support the idea of immortality? It is a parable, it shows the common theme of the poor vs the rich

ForeverFaithful said:

I believe what the Bible says, and believe it is the source of our doctirnes

So I've been convinced Hell can not be (as in the traditional never ending conscious torment that is)

Malachi 4:1 "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them."

The "Lord saith" not Malachi or some no name Jew, this is GOD, are we to call him a liar?

Now the first post will likely link the handful(I could probably count them on my hand were as the above is the tip of the iceberg of Bible verses that support conditional immortality) but we also have to note the words Forever and Eternal are not always used in scripture to refer to things that never end but are usually referring to until God's will is done

Jonah 2:6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever. But you brought my life up from the pit, O LORD my God.
here Jonah is referring to his being in the whale, which was only 3 days

Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

and what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah?

2 Peter 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Some well then argue that We all have immortal souls, but were does it say that in the Bible?

1 Tim 6:16 (God) who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Does that mean the Bible is wrong on these points or God lied to us? Am I reading into these verse or otherwise being dishonest?

Click to expand...

The "root" of the sinner is fallen nature and the original sin. The "branch" is the sin itself, which springs out of the root. This is talking about the judgement and destruction of evil, not the sinner himself. That judgement takes place by "fire". IMO, fire doesn't mean a literal fire, whether physical or spiritual. It refers to the truth.

Luke 12:49 "I came to cast fire on the earth, and would that it were already kindled!" But Jesus never was accused of trying to set forest fires. The fire here is the judgement that the words of truth bring. Jeremiah 23:29 '"Is not my word like fire" declares the Lord.'

James Humphreys said:

The "root" of the sinner is fallen nature and the original sin. The "branch" is the sin itself, which springs out of the root. This is talking about the judgement and destruction of evil, not the sinner himself. That judgement takes place by "fire". IMO, fire doesn't mean a literal fire, whether physical or spiritual. It refers to the truth.

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Alright that's fair interpretation, but it was seem the fate of the wicked is linked to Sodom and Gomorrah(Jude 1:7, 2 Peter 2:6) which were literal smote with fire, you can find brimestone there today

and second Christ links the destruction of the body to the death of the soul (Matt 10:28) Malachi seems to be saying that the sinners will be absultely destoryed with nothing left (...All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble...) if their figurative roots and branches are destroyed, bonus

Luke 12:49 "I came to cast fire on the earth, and would that it were already kindled!" But Jesus never was accused of trying to set forest fires. The fire here is the judgement that the words of truth bring. Jeremiah 23:29 '"Is not my word like fire" declares the Lord.'

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Jesus does set the world on fire both figuratively with the word of God both also literal when the earth will be set a flame with the lake of fire