Chase200mph
Member
The show must go on .but Dawkins doesnt debate well :foot: .all he had to do is ask for how this could be made so.
Without any evidence to support science and religion can get along .well, it isnt rocket science. :slap:
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Suppose evolution was refuted, then what?
- Thread starter Matthew78
- Start date
Without any evidence to support science and religion can get along .well, it isnt rocket science. :slap:
RedOne77
Active Member
I like Dawkins, he describes the science very well, but his views of religion are a bit too simplistic; he spends too much time with creationists that surprisingly, sort of, don't know that much about religion as well. He is also very emotional when it comes to religion, so I get the sense that he isn't being completely objective.
As for science and religion, the scientific method was in part developed under the framework of a theistic religion by devout Christians, and many devout believers have also been ardent scientists as well over the centuries. There is compatibility there, however as science changes over time, sometimes religion must change as well. But also recognize that advancements in science aren't the only ways that religion changes.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
No one lives without emotional biases. Which is why you never take everything that someone says as "gospel".
When it comes to discussing biology Dawkins is solidly reliable. I've definitely enjoyed his part in the "Inside Natures Giants" series. Just biology, no politics.
wa:do
When it comes to discussing biology Dawkins is solidly reliable. I've definitely enjoyed his part in the "Inside Natures Giants" series. Just biology, no politics.
wa:do
And who is the miner? No maserati nor even a hubcap come about without a maker, a designer. DNA blows away anything built by men as to complexity and functionality.
As Hebrews 3:4 states with devastating logic: "Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God." (underline added)
Really? Are you asserting that RNA happens naturally? And your proof for that is?
Really? A rock is not subject to chemical processes?
First, I am not a born-again Christian nor a YEC. Actually, God provides abundant evidence for his Godship. "For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship." (Romans 1:19,20) Despite this overwhelming evidence, men choose to pretend God doesn't exist. Flew followed the scientific evidence to the conclusions he drew. Whether this correct conclusion moves a person to worship God depends on his own heart and mind. Romans 1:21 describes those who, "although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their unintelligent heart became darkened."
How can something as simple as water just know how to make a snowflake... it's just too complex! And they are all unique!
Clearly god is shaping each one in a factory in the sky. Nothing complex happens in nature by itself.... :cover:
wa:do
The Bible does speak of the storehouses of the snow. Speaking of God, Job 37:6 says: "For to the snow he says, 'Fall earthward.' And to the downpour of rain, even to the downpour of his strong rains." God put into operation the mathematical and natural laws that produce these artistic wonders called snowflakes. So, your comment that "Nothing complex happens in nature by itself" is correct.
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
Yet the only evidence you present are verses and your "common sense"?
How about presenting some evidence that is supportable and not merely an empty claim supported by more empty claims?
Evolution is continually refuted, thats a part of the scientific process . If it were ZNOT so, then I wouldnt have believed it in the first place .its only religions that profess you must remain ignorant and follow blindly. Example: Did the men who Jesus used to preach His gospel - men who were, "uneducated and untrained men" - seek to change those characteristics, or teach others to become educated and trained? (Acts 4:13) Why did Jesus say, "I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." (Mark 10:15)
You must forsake education and become retarded ..
The fact that Christ's apostles were "unlettered and ordinary" (NWT) did not mean they were uneducated or untrained. They most certainly were literate and capable men, although without what would be a university education today.
The Apostle Paul was educated among the elite of his day, but forsook a career "on account of the excelling value of the knowledge of Christ." (Phillipians 3:8)
Throughout the Bible, the acquiring of knowledge and wisdom is encouraged.
- "All your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah, and the peace of your sons will be abundant." (Isaiah 54:13) The university-taught leaders of this world have not been able to bring abundant peace to earth, but those taught by Jehovah are peaceful.
- The knowledge of God is far superior to the supposed wisdom of this world. The Bible book of Proverbs speaks of the need to have knowledge, wisdom, and understanding. "For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; out of his mouth there are knowledge and discernment. And for the upright ones he will treasure up practical wisdom." (Proverbs 2:6,7)
- Jesus words at Mark 10:15 were not a command for ignorance. Rather, a young child displays implicit trust in his parents. Just so, a Christian will come to trust God implicitly, humbly following his commands. Paul wrote: "do not become young children in powers of understanding, but be babes as to badness; yet become full-grown in powers of understanding." (1 Corinthians 14:20)
- Finally, there are people who are "book smart" but who's lives are a shambles. The education God gives leads to life and peace. (John 17:3) Nowhere does the Bible say you must forsake education, though it does warn of "the contradictions of the falsely called "knowledge"."(1 Timothy 6:20)
johnhanks
Well-Known Member
I suppose it was only a matter of time before rusra embraced intelligent falling. Move over, gravity. (And parodists - despair!)
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
So god can put together natural and mathematical laws to create something as complex and unique as a snowflake... but not DNA?
Was DNA just too difficult for god to manage the natural and mathematical laws of?
Surely if god is mighty enough to make a snowflake naturally he should be able to make anything naturally?
wa:do
Matthew78
aspiring biblical scholar
Originally Posted by Matthew78
How does this answer my question regarding complexity? When creationists say that something is "too complex" they don't specify just how complex something has to be to be intelligently designed. Where is the demarcation line between "complex" and "too complex" that represents nature's built-in limits to how much complexity that is able to rise naturally?
You don't have an answer, do you?
Nothing arises "naturally". Nothing. All that we see or don't see has a Maker, from the smallest atom or subatomic particle to the largest galaxy swirling in space.
Jehovah is the "Former of the mountains and the Creator of the wind."(Amos 4:13)
All the "natural" forces of nature, like the wind, and the substantive material of the universe are the product of an intelligent mind and source of limitless power. In other words, God did it all.
All that we see or don't see has a maker? All as in everything? You realize that would include your god, right? So who made your god? And who made that god? And that god? And that one? You just shot yourself in the foot with that one.
Give this some serious thought, rusra, and you'll realize that you're better off adopting William Lane Craig's argument that whatever begins to exist must have a cause. Otherwise, you're going to twist yourself into verbal pretzels. Not that I mind; I have been known to amuse myself with apologists who get themselves into tight spots. You cite Amos 4: 13. So what? I don't believe that "Jehovah" is real. You realize this, right?
As for all the natural forces of nature being the products of God's creation, I defy you to prove this but I'm not confident that you will. All you do is cite Scripture and misrepresent your sources.
Why assume that clouds are "made"? Why assume that photons were made? The fact of the matter is that your questions are not inquisitive; you're asking stump questions. Cloud-formation is another incidental process. Any class in earth science would make this crystal clear. I hope you take one but you seem more interested in evangelism than actualy educating yourself. As for the amazing water cycle-you're right; it just happens. The water-cycle is an incidental process and is just as incidental as a lightening strike or a meteor shower.
You're ignoring the distinction between presciptive laws and descriptive laws. Why? Why do you persist in ignoring this? Descriptive laws govern physical systems and operate incidentally. Prescriptive laws are human conventions and can be created or abolished by human whim. Prescriptive laws are not incidental nor can they be created or abolished by human whim.
Another thing-why do you always quote scripture? Is it to impress me? Is it to amaze me? You quote it like all you have to do is share it with me and I believe whatever you say because it's in the Bible. I have news for you, pal. I don't believe that the Bible is the word of any god; quoting the Bible to prove a point only gets me to roll my eyes. I do that a lot when I read your posts.
I didn't say that there was proof; this is just how biologists understand evolution to operate. But even if I did present proof to you, you would still dismiss it anyways because it's not found in the Bible. You see? This is the problem; you're so antireason, it's tragic.
Then why do you appeal to the complexity of DNA and other systems as proof of design? You're argument assumes that there are built-in-limits to what nature can accomplish. If you think there's no line in the sand, then you need to start correcting other creationists who do appeal to limits in nature; you need to correct them by saying, then, that nothing is "too complex".
If you are not a born-again Christian, what are you, then? I never said that you were a YEC although you should be. If you are not, then you are likely ignorant of Hebrew Bible scholarship, which, I argue, supports a YEC view of the Bible.
Then why didn't he become convinced that the Bible is the word-of-God? Why didn't he come to believe everything you did? I have read from others that you're a Jehovah's Witness. Why didn't your god have Flew become a JW? It's not something you're going to be able to explain, rusra.
So, in other words, Flew was honest enough to conclude that there was a creator but dishonest in not concluding that it was Jehovah and also dishonest in not accepting Jesus as his lord and savior? If he was dishonest about the later, why do you trust his honesty about the former?
That's right! He had ulterior motives, didn't he? He was just too self-serving to accept Jesus, wasn't he? Just like me, I suppose.
Am I too self-serving to believe in Jesus as my savior, rusra? Yes or no. Am I too selfish and childish to become a JW like you? Yes or no. I'm really interested in your answer.
camanintx
Well-Known Member
Have you ever seen a rock reproduce?
It's really sad that you think affirming the consequent is an example of devastating logic.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Chase200mph
Member
Answer: I it was only that simplistic .religion changes as its politics change and science IS the enemy of both. Religion preaches that ignorance is a rewarded and knowledge leads away from the truth and salvation. Did the men who Jesus used to preach His gospel - men who were, "uneducated and untrained men" - seek to change those characteristics, or teach others to become educated and trained? (Acts 4:13) Why did Jesus say, "I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." (Mark 10:15)
To enter Heaven you must forsake education and become mentally challenged .example : those were not real Christians and without the spirit you cant understand the bible. The bible says a Christian is to kill those who will not listen to them Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
Any city that doesnt receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who dont believe in him. Jude 5
Ignorance is bliss. Christians should not practice free inquiry nor socialize with non Christians:
Dont associate with non-Christians. Dont receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10
Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17
Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8
Judge other religions for not following Christ:
Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22
Christians are of God; everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19
The non-Christian is a deceiver and an anti-Christ 2 John 1:7
Anyone who doesnt share Pauls beliefs has an evil heart. Hebrews 3:12
False Jews are members of the synagogue of Satan. Revelations 2:9, 3:9
crystalonyx
Well-Known Member
One can be emotional and still debate rationally. Lawyers do it every day.
Chase200mph
Member
True, and being that so much evil is historical inherent of the Christian religion one would have to be following that force blindly not to openly exhibit such emotions in the first place .Facing the evil of the bible, its god and followers is supposed to be an emotional situation. And as long as his debate is not an emotional debate and doesnt follow those kinds of reasoning fallacies (like Argumentum ad baculum) . then all is well, wait .. what kind of people use the reasoning fallacy of force and or fear?????????????????? Religious people perhaps SMIRK :run:
What translation are you using?
Almost all of the verses above are mistranslated and taken out of context.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
The theory of evolution is an established fact with billions of facts that support it and NONE that refute it. In 200 years the theory still works and is right and has predicted and found to be right more then Darwin could have ever imagined with newer technologies to test it, such as molecular biology.
There have also been five major extintion events on Earth and life evolved back from them. One of them before the dinosaurs killed 95% of all life on Earth.
There have also been five major extintion events on Earth and life evolved back from them. One of them before the dinosaurs killed 95% of all life on Earth.