Who wrote the Book of Hebrews?

Shermana said:

Zechariah talks about people learning the ways of the Jews. And you mean 8:23. Are they all going to Jerusalem yet?
It seems historically as of yet whenever gentiles have gone to Jerusalem it has usually been to raze it to the ground. Maybe a little tourism here and there since 1918.

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God has informed us that these fulfillments are not fulfilled in a physical way as they are written... The best way he could show that we should not expect a physical fulfillment was by allowing the the temple to be destroyed by the Romans, but many are still looking for a physical fulfillment

the fulfillment has already occurred.

God has informed us that these fulfillments are not fulfilled in a physical way as they are written.

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Where?

Where does the Temple even exist in the prophecy to begin with?

e whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up and remain in its place, from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses. 11It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure. 12This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13On that day men will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. Each man will seize the hand of another, and they will attack each other. 14Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. 15A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.

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What is the metaphorical meaning of the above?

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

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When does this event happen?

If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles

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When does Egypt start having permanent droughts for refusing to honor Succot?

and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanitee in the house of the Lord Almighty.

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When do all the Canaanites finally leave? When do the sacrifices commence again?

Thanks for the kind reply Pegg,

Pegg said:

I dont think so. The only way to test the critism is to look at the document itself, im sure you'd agree.

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As best translations and footnotes on alternative findings allow me, at this point.
I can assure you I wouldn't rehearse others or make claims that I haven't looked into and investigated for myself.

Pegg said:

i agree with you on the above. While I find the writings of the church fathers interesting, i can also see aspects of their writings which are contrary to what we find in the scirptures themselves, so I dont take their writings as firm proof of what is written in the NT because many of them were delving into non christian doctrines

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That 'contrary' actually works both ways....
When you compare a writing and a text and are trying to gauge 'more original/authentic', sometimes the writings quotes can help point to what time period a text was around, which is a tool in analyzing variances.

When you know what the time period is you can then look at social/cultural history and better assess a variant as an addition or a subtraction based on which is more likely to have occurred.

For instance check out this look at this:

Comma Johanneum's absence in Early Authors

This is also a topic that is worth reading up on. It's a reading about the Text that was used in translating the King James Version of the Bible:

Comma Johanneum, Erasmus and the Textus Receptus


So looking at BOTH of their histories together help us have a clearer picture of the biography of the Bible Present and in it's becoming up to this point.




What gets me is this:

Often it's seen like God has already 'inspired' the correct books to be in the Bible and how they were written or guided the hands etc etc...

OK... that is fine....


BUT.... What if God is STILL doing that NOW and THIS is what we're supposed to be SEEING when we read the BIBLE? What if God is JUST NOW succeeding in restoring and recovering the Spirit of the document?

Honest question.

Finds like Nag Hammadi excited me as it's a change to compare unfettered texts, at least after they were copied (from who know how 'right or wrong' texts before).

What if NOW is when our ears are finally able to hear?




This is why I don't put a TON of weight on literalism, because I truly believe there is something deeper than words 'right or wrong' can take us... they are only at best to inspire use, to take us to a threshold where we have to choose to leap and let go, falling into Knowledge of Divine Love.

Awoon said:

One meaning is relatives of the Jews.

Others are heathens, pagans.

None are Americans.

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Who you callin a heathen?

Pegg said:

Can you imagine if you wrote a will and left it in the hands of your family, but someone came along years later and disputed the will... should your family assume that the person is correct and accept his conclusion on the matter without actually looking at the will itself???

I dont think so. The only way to test the critism is to look at the document itself, im sure you'd agree.

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That really isn't a good analogy though. It is more like one finding a will, with no name on it. Then some guy comes around, likes what's in it, and then claiming it for himself, by saying that it's his father's.

If we look at the document itself, it never states that it is from Paul. However, we know from his other letters that he did in fact make it known that he was the author. The fact that Hebrews says nothing about being from Paul suggests that it is not from Paul.

More so, there is no reason for Paul to be addressing Jews or Hebrews. It was agreed that he would be the missionary to the Gentiles, not to the Jews. No where else do we see him preaching to Jews. He preaches to Gentiles, and that was how it was accepted.

Shermana said:

Where? Where does the Temple even exist in the prophecy to begin with?

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in the writings of the NT.

Matthew 22:1 In further reply Jesus again spoke to them with illustrations, saying: 2 “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man, a king, that made a marriage feast for his son. 3 And he sent forth his slaves to call those invited to the marriage feast, but they were unwilling to come....7 “But the king grew wrathful, and sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his slaves, ‘The marriage feast indeed is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go to the roads leading out of the city, and anyone YOU find invite to the marriage feast.

Matthew 24:1Departing now, Jesus was on his way from the temple, but his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do YOU not behold all these things? Truly I say to YOU, By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.”

Luke 19:44 and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.”

Micah 3:12 Therefore on account of YOU men Zion will be plowed up as a mere field, and Jerusalem herself will become mere heaps of ruins

Shermana said:

What is the metaphorical meaning of the above?

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This, and many prophetic visions like it, are about 'the Great Day of God Almighty' It is the scourge will come upon those who fight against God! But whether the vision gets fulfilled literally or not, it shows that there will be a tragic end for many. It could mean that the tongues of God’s enemies will rot in the sense that their defiant speech will be silenced. Gods 'great day' has not yet happened, so we will have to wait and see how it is fulfilled.

Shermana said:

When does this event happen?
When does Egypt start having permanent droughts for refusing to honor Succot?

When do all the Canaanites finally leave? When do the sacrifices commence again?

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some of these verses do apply only to the ones they were written about in their specific times... not all prophecies are about today, but many do have greater fulfillments to come.

Okay, so when did Egypt experience severe droughts for refusing to obey Succoth, and when did the nations come to present sacrifices?

PS Jesus' words about the Temple came true around 70 AD.

SageTree said:

That 'contrary' actually works both ways....
When you compare a writing and a text and are trying to gauge 'more original/authentic', sometimes the writings quotes can help point to what time period a text was around, which is a tool in analyzing variances.

When you know what the time period is you can then look at social/cultural history and better assess a variant as an addition or a subtraction based on which is more likely to have occurred.

For instance check out this look at this:
Comma Johanneum's absence in Early Authors

This is also a topic that is worth reading up on. It's a reading about the Text that was used in translating the King James Version of the Bible:

Click to expand...

when I said that we should consult the text itself, i did mean the original language manuscripts...and going back as far as possible too I might add.

This example of the added phrase is well known...our bible (and most modern translations) dont have that phrase added in because its well known to be a trinitarians addition

SageTree said:

What gets me is this:

Often it's seen like God has already 'inspired' the correct books to be in the Bible and how they were written or guided the hands etc etc...
OK... that is fine....
BUT.... What if God is STILL doing that NOW and THIS is what we're supposed to be SEEING when we read the BIBLE? What if God is JUST NOW succeeding in restoring and recovering the Spirit of the document?
Honest question.

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to some extent this is true

the bible was written in languages that havent been spoken in over 2,000 years...this is what made translation difficult... add to that the fact that languages are always evolving and changing, so its not been an easy task to translate a lost language.

What has helped has been archeology which has really only been a science scince the middle of the 19th century... as archeologists found more and more artifacts and writings from these lost languages, they have learned more about those languages and about the meanings of certain phrases and figures of speech and in turn, the bible manuscripts have become much clearer....hence why translations of those manuscripts are often revised.

That could be God guiding man, or it could simply be that mans curiosity is motivate him to discover the bibles message.... whatever the case, we can be sure that it was God who saw to it that his message was not lost to mankind.

SageTree said:

What if NOW is when our ears are finally able to hear?
This is why I don't put a TON of weight on literalism, because I truly believe there is something deeper than words 'right or wrong' can take us... they are only at best to inspire use, to take us to a threshold where we have to choose to leap and let go, falling into Knowledge of Divine Love.

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Now is most certainly the time...bible chronology points to the now as being the 'end of the appointed times of the nations'
Since that time ended, God has shown us what we need to do to come to know him and to live eternally... there is no better time then to start trusting him and his word and live by it

Shermana said:

Okay, so when did Egypt experience severe droughts for refusing to obey Succoth, and when did the nations come to present sacrifices?

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what are the references for these verses?

Shermana said:

PS Jesus' words about the Temple came true around 70 AD.

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yep.... and not only in 70ce but also the part of his prophecy and Daniels prophecy about the 'disgusting thing'

Matthew 24:15 “Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju‧de′a begin fleeing to the mountains. ... 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short"

This is the first 1/2 of the prophecy when Rome came into Jerusalem under Cestus Gallus in 66CE... but they didnt bring desolation at that time. What Gallus did was erect the Roman Sign in the temple itself...and they withdrew out of Jerusalem. So the unholy thing stood in a holy place, and their quick departure was the time to flee out of Jerusalem because the 2nd wave of the prophecy which occured in 70ce was utter annihilation for all of Jerusalems inhabitants as we know.

Zechariah 14:18

If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles

As you can see, the rest of Zechariah involves Jerusalem strong and standing...kind of like...today.

Shermana said:

Zechariah 14:18

If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles

As you can see, the rest of Zechariah involves Jerusalem strong and standing...kind of like...today.

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ah sorry, i should have kept reading lol

The prophecy here is one and the same. Its all related to Gods Great Day. It will be all the nations of earth who will answer to God during that time if they do not participate in the festival of booths. Now dont think this is literal festival that all the nations have to participate in. We are told that these festivals represented something more significant at Hebrews 10:1 For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things...'

Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no man judge YOU in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath; 17 for those things are a shadow of the things to come


So you need to ask what does this particular festival represent. The Festival of Booths marked the end of the major part of the agricultural year for Israel. It was, a time of rejoicing and thanksgiving for all the blessings Jehovah had given in the fruitage of all their crops. Also, since the Day of Atonement had been observed just five days earlier, the people would have a sense of peace with Jehovah.

If the nations do not respond to the atoning value of Christs blood which has been offered on their behalf, they will have to answer for their lack of joining in this 'festival'.

I am giving you a really simple explanation for this without going into great depth... but its just to show that the mention of 'egypt and canaan' is not to be taken literally... all the nations are involved, not just those two.

It specifically talks about nations coming to bring sacrifices.

And I do believe that the prophecy involves no more Canaanites in the Holy Land for one thing.

Shermana said:

It specifically talks about nations coming to bring sacrifices.

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those who celebrated the festival of booths all brought sacrifices with them... the offered the firstfruits of the agricultural season.... and the same would be true of the spiritual festival in its fulfillment

Hebrews 13:15 Through him let us always offer to God a sacrifice of praise, that is, the fruit of lips which make public declaration to his name

Shermana said:

And I do believe that the prophecy involves no more Canaanites in the Holy Land for one thing.

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to the hebrews, the canaanites were an unclean and cursed nation, they knew that God wanted them and their practices gone from the land...so it will be in the Great day of God when all the nations are brought to account... once God has taken the action he will take, there will be no one in the land that will be like the canaanites, unclean and cursed.