Allah is not God (Islams)

Popeyesays said:

In other words you can't find a claim from Jesus to be GOD.

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No like i said, im not going to turn this into a trinity debate - there are pleenty of other threads on this already.
And again you compleatly avoid the implications of the atonement Christ made for us and that the bible makes it clear that this atonement is the only way for sinners to stand befor God and not be condemmed. Either God requires this atonement or he dosnt!

Popeyesays said:

That means to me that He is not God, the Creator, Adonai, Elohim, Hashem.

Now do you believe He is the Son of God because GOD donated sperm to Mary to give Jesus the DNA of God?

Or did He come into being, born of Mary through an act of will by God?

If you believe the second, then Jesus is not the progeny of God.

If it is so important that Jesus is God because He had no human father, why is Adam not even greater since He did not have a father nor a mother? This is where that argument leads.

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No you miss a very important point about Christ, he didnt come into existance when he was born on earth. Adam was created, Christ was not - he was with the father befor the world began.
He became a man to pay for our sin.
Jesus is not just one of Gods creations.
Jesus stated the following in revalation Revelation 22:12
and also made it clear in John 17:5
or

Steve said:

If you dont agree with my beliefs about God and salvation then ok, im fine to agree to disagree - but when someone tries to tell me that im worshiping the same God that muslims are its just not true.
If Christianity it True then islam is not.

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hmmm. You keep taking one step too many. If you don't believe that you worship the Muslim God, then fine. You don't worship that god, but when you make a statement like ,"If Christianity is True then Islam is not", you put yourself in a difficult position to defend.

Being that "who" your god is, is a matter of opinion, no one has any right to tell you that you are worshipping a god you do not believe in. You have a right to your opinion and they have no right to be intolerant of it; but to go and say that if your religion is true that everyone elses religion is false, puts you in a position of being the intolerant one. You lose the high ground. It's also an unnecessary position.

Darkdale said:

hmmm. You keep taking one step too many. If you don't believe that you worship the Muslim God, then fine. You don't worship that god, but when you make a statement like ,"If Christianity is True then Islam is not", you put yourself in a difficult position to defend.

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Darkdale, I've tried to explain this to you several times and you just keep brushing it off: IF you are a monotheist, those two statements go hand in hand. IF you are a monotheist, those two statements are identical. Steve is a monotheist. FIAA is a monotheist. I don't understand why you can't look at it from their perspective for just a moment and see that those two statements go hand in hand. THAT is why I've been adamant that it's the same God. I wouldn't say that to a polytheist because their views would not autmatically lead to condemnation of other religions. sheesh. :banghead3

lilithu said:

Darkdale, I've tried to explain this to you several times and you just keep brushing it off: IF you are a monotheist, those two statements go hand in hand. IF you are a monotheist, those two statements are identical. Steve is a monotheist. FIAA is a monotheist. I don't understand why you can't look at it from their perspective for just a moment and see that those two statements go hand in hand. THAT is why I've been adamant that it's the same God. I wouldn't say that to a polytheist because their views would not autmatically lead to condemnation of other religions. sheesh. :banghead3

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But even if you are a monotheist, it is totally unnecessary to take an opinion on the gods other people worship, even if they are monotheists too. The belief that if Christianity, or Islam for that matter, is true, then all other religions are false is totally unnecessary. Just look at many of the Christians on this very site who do not hold that belief; there are just as many Christians here that are tolerant of people's beliefs in other gods as there are... rigid monotheists. I admit, I have a very hard time looking at things from a monotheistic perspective, because I accept everyone's right to worship their own personal god, goddess or gods. I have a very difficult time understanding why anyone would choose to be so close-minded.

I do see your point, that if a Christian monotheist is going to believe that there is only one true God and all other gods are false, that it would be better for all if they believed that Muslims and Jews and Mormons all worshiped the same god; but then they'd still be telling me that my gods are "made-up" or "the product of satan", so they are still being intolerant and pretentious in my book anyway. So I don't see the difference between a Christian worshipping one God and it not being the Muslim god and it also not being My gods. I just don't see why they should bother taking any steps forward if that is the case. Let em' just be closed-minded all the way, you know?

Steve said:

No like i said, im not going to turn this into a trinity debate - there are pleenty of other threads on this already.
And again you compleatly avoid the implications of the atonement Christ made for us and that the bible makes it clear that this atonement is the only way for sinners to stand befor God and not be condemmed. Either God requires this atonement or he dosnt!

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No, I am not. The purpose of a Manifestation of God such as Christ is two-fold. First, He renews the covenant with God by His Coming and is individually entrusted with some particular task. The particular and individual task of Jesus was to teach repentance and forgiveness.
But These Holy SOuls are not just individuals, Steve. They are the embodiment of Creation and man's only source of knowledge of God - God in all His attributes including Unity and Mercy. I do not believe that anyone is condemned to hell, because hell is not a place. We earn ourselves a place by our own deeds and the attainment of Godly virtues on this earth. We are also judged with infinite mercy. Heaven and Hell are relative nearness to God in the next life. No coming back to physical life try again, this is it, one ride for all riders, no re-visits allowed. Jesus was the "way, the truth and the life". So was Moses, Buddha, Zoroaster, Abraham, Muhammed, the Bab and Baha`u'llah, and other Manifestations Whose names and teachings are lost in time.

Steve said:

No you miss a very important point about Christ, he didnt come into existance when he was born on earth. Adam was created, Christ was not - he was with the father befor the world began.
He became a man to pay for our sin.
Jesus is not just one of Gods creations.


Jesus stated the following in revalation Revelation 22:12

"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.​

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Steve said:

and also made it clear in John 17:5

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.​

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Steve said:

or

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. ....
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3, 14

​

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I agree that the Holy Soul Who manifested as Christ, Moses, Abraham, Muhammed, Zoroaster, Krshna, Buddha, the Bab and Baha`u'llah and the Others lost in time and memory was the embodiment of the Creative Word:"BE!". The very purpose through which God created all.

Regards,

Scott

Darkdale said:

hmmm. You keep taking one step too many. If you don't believe that you worship the Muslim God, then fine. You don't worship that god, but when you make a statement like ,"If Christianity is True then Islam is not", you put yourself in a difficult position to defend.

Being that "who" your god is, is a matter of opinion, no one has any right to tell you that you are worshipping a god you do not believe in. You have a right to your opinion and they have no right to be intolerant of it; but to go and say that if your religion is true that everyone elses religion is false, puts you in a position of being the intolerant one. You lose the high ground. It's also an unnecessary position.

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It dosnt put me in a difficult possition to defend, Christianity is not compatible with islam - that is the plain truth of the matter. If Christianity is TRUE then you need the atonement Christ made for you, Jesus is the only way to heaven according to the Bible. Islam denys that Christ was even crucified! They both cannot be right! If one is right the other isnt.
Also about being intolerant i guess your right in a sense. I know many of you wont like what im about to say ...
I dont like the islamic religion, it denys Jesus as my savior and his sacrifice for mankind- Having said that i pray for muslims and i dont dislike them, I truly believe Christ is the only way for salvation, to have your sins forgiven, to be reconcilled to God - and i hope they see this and accept the sacrifice he made for them.
If being tolerant means disbelieving Jesus died on the cross for me then ill choose intolerance anyday.
If stating that i belive Christianity is the only true religion that leads to God makes me intolerant in your eyes then so be it.
Its how people act with their intolerance that matters though, if someone disagrees with me i can agree to disagree. Like ive already posted

Popeyesays said:

No, I am not. The purpose of a Manifestation of God such as Christ is two-fold.

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Christ was the only manifestation of God in human form.

Popeyesays said:

First, He renews the covenant with God by His Coming and is individually entrusted with some particular task. The particular and individual task of Jesus was to teach repentance and forgiveness.

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You seem to be forgetting the most important thing Jesus did for us, Crucified for our sins! This is how God forgives us!

Popeyesays said:

But These Holy SOuls are not just individuals, Steve.

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Christianity would disagree. So in making a case for why Christianity worships the same God as islam why present your religions views? Your religion may be compatible with islam.

Popeyesays said:

I do not believe that anyone is condemned to hell, because hell is not a place. We earn ourselves a place by our own deeds and the attainment of Godly virtues on this earth. We are also judged with infinite mercy. Heaven and Hell are relative nearness to God in the next life.

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Ok if thats what your religion teaches then thats your buisness. Has nothing to do with what we have been discussing for much of this thread, Christian God and Islamic god.
Christianity teaches many will be condemned to hell. It also teaches that those who escape hell escape because of the atonement Christ made for those who belive in him.
Islam dosnt - different god.

Popeyesays said:

So was Moses, Buddha, Zoroaster, Abraham, Muhammed, the Bab and Baha`u'llah, and other Manifestations Whose names and teachings are lost in time.

I agree He was the first and the last, in Himself, but so was Moses, Abraham, Zoroaster, Buddha, the Bab, Baha`u'llah and all the other Manifestations lost in time and history.

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Does your religion just believe anyone who called themselves a prophet was one, no matter how contradictory there teachings were? Have you ever compared the teachings of buddha to Moses? Or Jesus to Muhammed?

Popeyesays said:

I did however, ask for where in the actual words of Christ while He lived on Earth (you know the red letters in the red letter version of the GOSPELS) where He said He was God.

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Ah and? I said i was not going to get into a trinity debate. Besides as a Christian i belive the whole bible and if i want to show that the God of the Bible cant be the god of the koran then ill use whatever part of it is relavant. If you only belive the "red letters" thats your religions problem not mine.

Steve said:

I dont like the islamic religion, it denys Jesus as my savior and his sacrifice for mankind.

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Actually it does not. It says Jesus was the Spirit of God, but not the progeny of God.
Progeny as in sharing a bloodline.

Steve said:

- Having said that i pray for muslims and i dont dislike them, I truly believe Christ is the only way for salvation, to have your sins forgiven, to be reconcilled to God - and i hope they see this and accept the sacrifice he made for them.
If being tolerant means disbelieving Jesus died on the cross for me then ill choose intolerance anyday.
If stating that i belive Christianity is the only true religion that leads to God makes me intolerant in your eyes then so be it.


Its how people act with their intolerance that matters though, if someone disagrees with me i can agree to disagree. Like ive already posted .

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I accept the redemption of God through Christ as well.

Steve said:

Christ was the only manifestation of God in human form.


You seem to be forgetting the most important thing Jesus did for us, Crucified for our sins! This is how God forgives us!


Christianity would disagree. So in making a case for why Christianity worships the same God as islam why present your religions views? Your religion may be compatible with islam.

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Part of my faith is the recognition of the Unity of God, Religion and Mankind. Frankly, in my view, if Muhammed is false, so is Jesus.

Equally important as the sacrifice of His life was the teaching of His life. That is what some Christians seem to forget. Without His example of life, His death would be meaningless.

Steve said:

Ok if thats what your religion teaches then thats your buisness. Has nothing to do with what we have been discussing for much of this thread, Christian God and Islamic god.
Christianity teaches many will be condemned to hell. It also teaches that those who escape hell escape because of the atonement Christ made for those who belive in him.
Islam dosnt - different god.

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I am told that hell is of our own making, God's mercy is enough for me.
My religion teaches that Jesus was Who He said He was, also Muhammed.

Steve said:

Does your religion just believe anyone who called themselves a prophet was one, no matter how contradictory there teachings were? Have you ever compared the teachings of buddha to Moses? Or Jesus to Muhammed?

I was being educated as an Episcopalian deacon when I became a Baha`i more than thirty years ago. I have compared all the teachings and writings of all of those religions mentioned specifically in the Baha`i Faith.

Steve said:

Ah and? I said i was not going to get into a trinity debate. Besides as a Christian i belive the whole bible and if i want to show that the God of the Bible cant be the god of the koran then ill use whatever part of it is relavant. If you only belive the "red letters" thats your religions problem not mine.

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I accept Jesus words. Paul and the other writers of commentary are not infallible in my eyes at any rate. Good advice but not "Gospel".

"And when the days of Moses were ended, and the light of Jesus, shining forth from the Day Spring of the Spirit, encompassed the world, all the people of Israel arose in protest against Him. They clamored that He Whose advent the Bible had foretold must needs promulgate and fulfil the laws of Moses, whereas this youthful Nazarene, who laid claim to the station of the divine Messiah, had annulled the laws of divorce and of the sabbath day -- the most weighty of all the laws of Moses. Moreover, what of the signs of the Manifestation yet to come? These people of Israel are even unto the present day still expecting that Manifestation which the Bible hath foretold!"
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 19)

"Every discerning observer will recognize that in the Dispensation of the Qur'án both the Book and the Cause of Jesus were confirmed. As to the matter of names, Muhammad, Himself, declared: "I am Jesus." He recognized the truth of the signs, prophecies, and words of Jesus, and testified that they were all of God. In this sense, neither the person of Jesus nor His writings hath differed from that of Muhammad and of His holy Book, inasmuch as both have 22 championed the Cause of God, uttered His praise, and revealed His commandments. Thus it is that Jesus, Himself, declared: "I go away and come again unto you." Consider the sun. Were it to say now, "I am the sun of yesterday," it would speak the truth. And should it, bearing the sequence of time in mind, claim to be other than that sun, it still would speak the truth. In like manner, if it be said that all the days are but one and the same, it is correct and true. And if it be said, with respect to their particular names and designations, that they differ, that again is true. For though they are the same, yet one doth recognize in each a separate designation, a specific attribute, a particular character. Conceive accordingly the distinction, variation, and unity characteristic of the various Manifestations of holiness, that thou mayest comprehend the allusions made by the Creator of all names and attributes to the mysteries of distinction and unity, and discover the answer to thy question as to why that everlasting Beauty should have, at sundry times, called Himself by different names and titles...."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 21)

Regards,
Scott

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Steve said:

I dont like the islamic religion, it denys Jesus as my savior and his sacrifice for mankind.

Popeyesays said:

Actually it does not. It says Jesus was the Spirit of God, but not the progeny of God.
Progeny as in sharing a bloodline.

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Ok this is getting absurd, anyone who says Islam does not deny Jesus as savior and his sacrifice for mankind, is themselves in denial!
I dont know how many times i can say this and have it danced around - If Christianity is TRUE then you need the atonement Christ made for you, Jesus is the only way to heaven according to the Bible. Islam denys that Christ was even crucified! They both cannot be right! If one is right the other isnt.

Steve said:

Ok this is getting absurd, anyone who says Islam does not deny Jesus as savior and his sacrifice for mankind, is themselves in denial!
I dont know how many times i can say this and have it danced around - If Christianity is TRUE then you need the atonement Christ made for you, Jesus is the only way to heaven according to the Bible. Islam denys that Christ was even crucified! They both cannot be right! If one is right the other isnt.

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"Say ye, 'We believe in God, and what has been revealed to us, and what has been revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Tribes, and what was brought to Moses and Jesus, and what was brought unto the Prophets from their Lord; we will not distinguish between any one of them, and unto Him are we resigned."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)

"Of them is one to whom God spake; and we have raised some of them degrees; and we have given Jesus the son of Mary manifest signs, and strengthened him by the Holy Spirit."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)

"When the angel said, 'O Mary! verily, God gives thee the glad tidings of a Word from Him; his name shall be the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, regarded in this world and the next and of those whose place is nigh to God. And he shall speak to people in his cradle, and when grown up, and shall be among the righteous.' She said, 'Lord! how can have a son, when man has not yet touched me?' He said, 'Thus God creates what He pleaseth. When He decrees a matter He only says BE and it is; and He will teach him the Book, and wisdom, and the law, and the gospel, and he shall be a prophet to the people of Israel (saying), that I have come to you, with a sign from God, namely, that I will create for you out of clay as though it were the form of a bird, and I will blow thereon and it shall become a bird by God's permission; and I will heal the blind from birth, and lepers; and I will bring the dead to life by God's permission; and I will tell you what you eat and what ye store up in your houses"
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 3 - Imran's Family)

"When God said, 'O Jesus! I will make Thee die and take Thee up again to me and will clear thee of those who misbelieve, and will make those who follow thee above those who misbelieve, at the day of judgment, then to me is your return. I will decide between you concerning that wherein ye disagree. And as for those who misbelieve, I will punish them with grievous punishment in this world and the next, and they shall have none to help them.' But as for those who believe and do what is right, He will pay them their reward, for God loves not the unjust."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 3 - Imran's Family)

"The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, is but the apostle of God and His Word, which He cast into Mary and a spirit from Him; believe then in God and His apostles, and say not 'Three.'"
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 4 - Women)

"And we followed up the footsteps of these (prophets) with Jesus the son of Mary, confirming that which was before him and the law, and we brought him the gospel, wherein is guidance and light, verifying what was before it of the law, and a guidance and an admonition unto those who fear."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 5 - The Table)

"Then we followed up their footsteps with our apostles; and we followed them up with Jesus the son of Mary; and we gave him the gospel; and we placed in the hearts of those who followed him kindness and compassion."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 57 - Iron)

Just some of the quotes from the Qur'an which respect Jesus. There are some muslims who disrespect Christianity for sure, but they do so at the displeasure of Muhammed.

Regards,

Scott

This is almost a joke.
Are you even reading my posts?

Do you suppose i dont know Jesus is mentioned in the koran? That wasnt the issue i even raised. Not one of the verse's you posted mention Christ was crucified for our sin, that he made atonement for us.
Just for old times sake ill post this AGAIN - "I dont know how many times i can say this and have it danced around - If Christianity is TRUE then you need the atonement Christ made for you, Jesus is the only way to heaven according to the Bible. Islam denys that Christ was even crucified! They both cannot be right! If one is right the other isnt."


As for your comments about muhammed and his views on Christianity. They may have respected their fictional version of Jesus made up to suit themselves but about real followers of Christ there is little doubt what muhammed thought.

O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. Qur'an 5:51

Steve said:

This is almost a joke.
Are you even reading my posts?

<SNIP>

O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. Qur'an 5:51

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Taken out of context, Steven. He is talking about the Jewish and Christian families and clans who made solemn treaties and agreements with Muhamme dand then betrayed them.

Later in the same Surah, He clarifies it, but this whole section about those who broke solemn agreements and treaties can be read about in Muhammed and the Course of Islam.

"O ye who believe! take not for patrons those who take your religion for a jest or a sport, from amongst those who have been given the Book before and the misbelievers; but fear God if ye be believers. Nor those who, when ye call to prayer, take it for a jest and a sport; that is because they are a people who do not understand. Say, 'O people of the Book! do ye disavow us, for aught but that we believe in God, and what was revealed to us before, and for that most of you are evildoers?'
Say, 'Can I declare unto you something worse than retribution from God?' Whomsoever God has cursed and been wroth with- and he has made of them apes and swine- and who worship Taghut, they are in a worse plight and are more erring from the level path. When they come to you they say, 'We believe;' but they entered in with unbelief, and they went out therewith, and God knows best what they did hide."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 5 - The Table)

Yes, I do read your posts, not that you read mine.

Regards,
Scott

nice to see the <SNIP>
Even if what you say in your last post is true it has no bearing on the actuall point i was making for the majority of my post. Maybe thats because you didnt even address the main point i keep bringing up.

Ill include what you snipped out, maybe that will help you keep focused.
Do you suppose i dont know Jesus is mentioned in the koran? That wasnt the issue i even raised. Not one of the verse's you posted mention Christ was crucified for our sin, that he made atonement for us.
Just for old times sake ill post this AGAIN - "I dont know how many times i can say this and have it danced around - If Christianity is TRUE then you need the atonement Christ made for you, Jesus is the only way to heaven according to the Bible. Islam denys that Christ was even crucified! They both cannot be right! If one is right the other isnt."

Steve said:

nice to see the <SNIP>
Even if what you say in your last post is true it has no bearing on the actuall point i was making for the majority of my post. Maybe thats because you didnt even address the main point i keep bringing up.

Ill include what you snipped out, maybe that will help you keep focused.
Do you suppose i dont know Jesus is mentioned in the koran? That wasnt the issue i even raised. Not one of the verse's you posted mention Christ was crucified for our sin, that he made atonement for us.
Just for old times sake ill post this AGAIN - "I dont know how many times i can say this and have it danced around - If Christianity is TRUE then you need the atonement Christ made for you, Jesus is the only way to heaven according to the Bible. Islam denys that Christ was even crucified! They both cannot be right! If one is right the other isnt."

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Okay, how's this. I have the atonement Christ made, and every Muslim has it. It is a free gift. Christians also possess it, and even Jews have all the atonement they require provided through the observance of the Day of Atonement given in the Torah. They also possess it from Christ, in my opinion, because Moses and Jesus are ONE. Why, because they all worship the same God of Abraham.

So Christianity is true. Judaism is true. Islam is true.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays said:

Okay, how's this. I have the atonement Christ made, and every Muslim has it. It is a free gift.

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How can a muslim have it, they deny it! Dont even belive it exists! They belive they can enter heaven without it, that their good works can compensate for their bad.
True its a free gift, but you have to accept it and how can you when ,
1 - you dont belive you need it
and
2 - you dont belive it exists anyway?

Popeyesays said:

Christians also possess it, and even Jews have all the atonement they require provided through the observance of the Day of Atonement given in the Torah.

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Not according to the God of the bible,

Popeyesays said:

They also possess it from Christ, in my opinion, because Moses and Jesus are ONE.

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Your religion may teach that but it certainly isnt taught in the Bible. If were comparing the God of the Bible then lets use what the bible teaches, sound good?

Popeyesays said:

Why, because they all worship the same God of Abraham.
So Christianity is true. Judaism is true. Islam is true.

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No they do not! thats the whole point!!!!!!
The God of Abraham sent his Son who was crucified for our sins! If you disagree then you worship a different God. If im wrong and he didnt then i worship a different God, but a muslim and Christian cannot worship the same God, one says God did make atonement for our sins via Christs crucifixion, one says he didnt - CANNOT BOTH BE RIGHT.

So again.
If Christianity is TRUE then you need the atonement Christ made for you, Jesus is the only way to heaven according to the Bible. Islam denys that Christ was even crucified! They both cannot be right! If one is right the other isnt.

Steve said:

There is one God, other "gods" such as the muslim "god" are not the God of the bible and are false/made up or inspired by satan. The muslim "god", denies the only way to heaven as outlined in the bible - Jesus' sacrifice to atone for sin. They are not the same.

See this is the point! We do not worship the same God! We disagree on who God is!

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Nonesense .. you know why dear`Steve? because you forgot that the Jewish rejected your savior Jesus Christ even though your beliefs worth nothing without the OT which was provided by the Jewish from thier OWN sciptures. So, according to your own analyzing the Jewish god is false because they don't acknowledge Jesus and automaticly your belief is in vain because the OT belong to the Jewish so sorry to say that your god is wrong too according to the way of your thinking.

Therefore, I think you must take an intensive course to learn what is the meaning of God . That's because Jewish and Christians know well that our God is one but our ways are different.

Darkdale said:

I never said that the Christian God and the Muslim God are different Gods. I don't personally view either with much regard, or the Abrahamic one with much regard, however you choose to look at it. What I said, simply, directly and frankly clear as day is that it is a matter of opinion. If Muslims believe that Allah is the same God that the Christians worship and if Christians think they worship the same God as the Jews and if the Mormons think they worship the same God as the Muslims, Christians and/or Jews is a matter of opinion.

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You know why you couldn't understand what other people were pointing out?
because you think that everything in life is based in THINKING and OPNIONS which is non-sense to the Abrahimic beliefs followers which you don't understand. Basically, Jewish, Christians and Muslims belief is based on sciptures which you don't acknwoledge as a valid proof. That means you have no idea about what you are discussing in here.

The Truth said:

Nonesense .. you know why dear`Steve? because you forgot that the Jewish rejected your savior Jesus Christ even though your beliefs worth nothing without the OT which was provided by the Jewish from thier OWN sciptures. So, according to your own analyzing the Jewish god is false because they don't acknowledge Jesus and automaticly your belief is in vain because the OT belong to the Jewish so sorry to say that your god is wrong too according to the way of your thinking.

Therefore, I think you must take an intensive course to learn what is the meaning of God . That's because Jewish and Christians know well that our God is one but our ways are different.

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The apostles were Jewish, many Jews accepted Christ. The fact that some rejected and some accepted shows the very point that the two did not belive God to be the same! The Jewish God is the Christian God, and those who really followed him belived in Christ! Thats another major point, many of the religious leaders didnt recognise who Jesus was, just because they were Jewish does not mean they truly worshiped God.
Like ive already pointed out from prophecies in the Old Testament, its clear Jesus is the messiah. Those same prophecies make clear that he would make atonement for us. Many of the Jew rejected the very God they claimed to worship.
Maybe you should ask yourself if you really believe the OT. What do you make of Isaiah written over 700 years befor Christ? Many of the Jews may not have recognised that which they should have because of there hard hearts, dont you do the same thing.

Steve said:

The apostles were Jewish, many Jews accepted Christ. The fact that some rejected and some accepted shows the very point that the two did not belive God to be the same! The Jewish God is the Christian God, and those who really followed him belived in Christ! Thats another major point, many of the religious leaders didnt recognise who Jesus was, just because they were Jewish does not mean they truly worshiped God.

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Again you are simply mistaken because the Jewish didn't reject Jesus's God but they rejected Jesus himself because they think he is not thier Massiah.

Steve said:

Like ive already pointed out from prophecies in the Old Testament, its clear Jesus is the messiah.

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I know according to Islam that Jesus is the Massiah and the word of God but Just because you THINK or you FEEL somthing is so clear so that will never make things right.

Did God said in the OT "O Jewish i'll send someone called Jesus and you have to follow him"? NO.

let me tell you somthing, if i showed you where God and Jesus in the OT and NT mentioned Mohammed (PBUH) so would you believe me or you will just reject it as the Jewish rejected Jesus?

Think before you answer me.

The Truth said:

Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:4-6



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I know according to Islam that Jesus is the Massiah and the word of God but Just because you THINK or you FEEL somthing is so clear so that will never make things right.

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How much clearer would it have to be? Or is this your answer -

The Truth said:

"O Jewish i'll send someone called Jesus and you have to follow him"

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Ask yourself how resonable your being... actually even if it said that im sure you would just say it was altered to say that. You wont accept it because you dont want to, that prophecy isnt clear enough to you because you dont want it to be.

The Truth said:

let me tell you somthing, if i showed you where God and Jesus in the OT and NT mentioned Mohammed (PBUH) so would you believe me or you will just reject it as the Jewish rejected Jesus?

Think before you answer me.

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Thats ok i know plennty of places mohammed and people like him are mentioned in the NT.
Christ loves you and was crucified for your sins, he made atonement for you yet because of mohammed's teaching your willfully ignorant of what God has done for you and instead belive you can get to heaven by your own works.

Was this done in the name of Allah ? www.michaelsavage.com

I do recognize that these are extremists not main stream Muslims (for those that think I am anti-Muslim

Three Christian Indonesian girls on there way to school were beheaded and another seriously injured. Here is a picture of one of those beheaded girls.. wow she looks like a threat to me (said in sarcasm)

STOP TERRORISM in the name of religion...

Now tell me who is reverting back to medieval times Sunstone....

All we are doing is taking about it and trying to figure it out....

What is happening here ?

Christian martyrs in the year 2005 ?

I thought we did not have this kind of thing anymore....

It looks like killing in the name of religion is alive and well