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Hatred of Christianity!

not nom

Well-Known Member
What are you talking about? The bulk of Euro-centric history is a catalog of the repercussions of white supremacy. Are you really saying there's nothing about slavery, the conquest of the Americas, or the Holocaust in the history books? What school did you go to?

lolwhut? how obscene in this context to overlook that europe was christian.

now, as to the holocaust... that was based on antisemitism and german supremacy, not white supremacy. the nazis didn't believe in white supremacy, they SO despised eastern europe and beyond for example (in other words, caucasians?). it was more a (formerly christian, intended to be all nazi) german thing, than an "all whites" thing.

and guess what was the main breeding ground for antisemitism? christianity. for nearly two millenia. those yellow stars were nearly 600 years old IIRC, and hitler simple implemented luthers recommendations regarding the jews. the poison spewed towards jews, and how often they got called murderers of god, and how often they were declared to be cursed forever by god, provided the basis for centuries, more than a millenium of ever repeating persecution, of which the holocaust was the tragic zenith.

to blame it on white supremacy, and then talk about history knowledge? ASTONISHING.

Provide the historical evidence.

Just don't say it. I cannot find in any post in this thread by anyone attempting to lay so much responsibility on Christianity anything specific beyond not nom's hilarious attempt by mentioning a letter drawn in one nation at the onset of Spain's colonial adventures which was denounced by Christians as well. In the end that document was simply tossed out and Spain merely went on to do what nations, no matter their majority religion, had done for centuries.

that some christians denounced it doesn't mean much, when most didn't mind. that they denounced it way after the fact is completely meaningless. that such a document could even have been written with papal authority is still telling.

if that's just what nations do, what does christianity have to do with nations anyway? what happened between "render unto cesar" and the RCC and tax-exempt megachurches in america? something rather huge I guess.

if you simply say "THAT'S not christianity, but what NATIONS do", (I guess you could also fall back to "what people do"), then nobody will ever be able to place specific responsibility on christianity by providing historic evidence, you'll never accept that christianity has anything to do with it. you'd kinda need to define "christian" first.

if you consider those as christians who call themselves that, based on one of a thousand possible readings and pickings of the bible, that does include antisemitic progroms en masse and it does include the holocaust. if it wasn't for religion, there would have been no "reason" for any of that. fact. you can call that hilarious but I find none of it funny.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
if you consider those as christians who call themselves that, based on one of a thousand possible readings and pickings of the bible, that does include antisemitic progroms en masse and it does include the holocaust. if it wasn't for religion, there would have been no "reason" for any of that. fact. you can call that hilarious but I find none of it funny.
Yes, some Christians are antisemitic. Does that mean all Christians? Nope. Being a Christian does not make one antisemitic. So to try to place such an event on Christians in general is dishonest.

Also, you need to understand history fully. The problem I see is that you are picking out events and ideas without actually understanding them. That is the problem I saw with Heathen Hammer as well.

First, antisemitism may have started with Christianity. However, you need to know the history of it. It wasn't that Christians one day just decided to hate Jews. It was a back and forth struggle between early Christians and the emerging Rabbinic Judaism. It is the outcome of an internal struggle between the two.

On one hand, Christians during that time still largely identified themselves as Jews. When the Temple fell, two forms of Judaism emerged out of the rubble. Rabbinic Judaism emerged (or what would be called), and the movement that would be called Christianity. At this time, Judaism began to centralize itself in Rabbinic Judaism (it was in order to remain strong, especially considering that their whole world changed with the destruction of the Temple). This meant that Christians got pushed more and more away. This caused bitterness between the two. Christians attacked Jews, Jews attacked Christians.

On the other hand, there is also the fact that Rome had an eye on Jews after the first Jewish War. Christians couldn't really speak out openly against Rome, which would include following an enemy of the state (Jesus would have been such). So the blame went away from Rome, and was placed more on the Jews. This was a gradual process (it is also more complicated than that, but that's the basics).

By the time of the Holocaust (not a Christian event. To label it such is simply ridiculous), antisemitism was widespread in Europe. Yes, some of that was because of Christianity. However, it was much more than that as well (every group was pretty much guilty of antisemitism, including atheists and agnostics). Part of the problem was that Jews were a minority (thus easy to blame things on, which is what happened), and they created their own communities within communities. To a point, they isolated themselves from the general population. This raised suspicions. And it made them a very easy target.

My point, you have to look at all of the factors instead of having such a narrow point of view. Ignoring the wide arrange of factors simply does a disservice to history, and people in general.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
Christianity=Antisemitism.

Yeah tell that to St Teresa Benedicta a Cruce (St. Edith Stein),Saint Maximilian Kolbe, The Saints who opened the doors to the convents to allow fleeing Jews, and of course tell the Jewish Christ and his 12 Apostles.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Part of the problem was that Jews were a minority (thus easy to blame things on, which is what happened), and they created their own communities within communities. To a point, they isolated themselves from the general population. This raised suspicions. And it made them a very easy target.

Are you saying that they were asking for it?
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
Are you saying that they were asking for it?
How did you possibly get that from what he wrote?

What he was describing has happened and still does happen. Muslims are a minority in the west that have become targets by xenophobic people. Minorties in Turkey, Iraq and Iran have been signalled out in the same way, such as the Kurds. Religious minority, Bahii get similar treatment in Iran.

And anyone who thinks Anti-semitiesm against Jews is solely a white Euro thing must have forgotten the atrocities Jews have faced in the ME since Israel was founded, by paranoid Arabs in Egypt. sSuch as the mistreatment Egyptian native Jews faced, accused of being "Zionist spies". Similar issues had arosed in many Arab-Jewish communities in the ME.

Minorities in early America, including the African-Americans faced many mistreatments. And there are many other examples that can be givin, all of which the victims did not "ask for it", yet were just subject to prejudices that seem to happen alot, even in modern times.

In other words, what that guy wrote was not saying they "asked for it" but was simply describing treatment that has been done to many who were at one point a minority.
 

Averroes

Active Member
Christianity=Antisemitism.

Yeah tell that to St Teresa Benedicta a Cruce (St. Edith Stein),Saint Maximilian Kolbe, The Saints who opened the doors to the convents to allow fleeing Jews, and of course tell the Jewish Christ and his 12 Apostles.


But also tell that to the Christians who said Jews killed Christ. Tell that to the Christian who tried to convert heathen Africans, and Native Americans. However yes there are some decent Christians on this planet. Like all cultures.
 

Averroes

Active Member
How did you possibly get that from what he wrote?

What he was describing has happened and still does happen. Muslims are a minority in the west that have become targets by xenophobic people. Minorties in Turkey, Iraq and Iran have been signalled out in the same way, such as the Kurds. Religious minority, Bahii get similar treatment in Iran.

And anyone who thinks Anti-semitiesm against Jews is solely a white Euro thing must have forgotten the atrocities Jews have faced in the ME since Israel was founded, by paranoid Arabs in Egypt. sSuch as the mistreatment Egyptian native Jews faced, accused of being "Zionist spies". Similar issues had arosed in many Arab-Jewish communities in the ME.

Minorities in early America, including the African-Americans faced many mistreatments. And there are many other examples that can be givin, all of which the victims did not "ask for it", yet were just subject to prejudices that seem to happen alot, even in modern times.

In other words, what that guy wrote was not saying they "asked for it" but was simply describing treatment that has been done to many who were at one point a minority.

I agree anti-semetism isn't a "Euro thing" however I think we largely associate it with Europe because of the Holocaust IMHO
 

not nom

Well-Known Member
Yes, some Christians are antisemitic. Does that mean all Christians? Nope. Being a Christian does not make one antisemitic. So to try to place such an event on Christians in general is dishonest.

it belongs there more than anywhere else. to deny that, is delusion.

Also, you need to understand history fully. The problem I see is that you are picking out events and ideas without actually understanding them. That is the problem I saw with Heathen Hammer as well.

no, you just assume that because I say things you don't like.

First, antisemitism may have started with Christianity.

oh, some romans seeom to have been ****** off at them before christians, too. you see, it's the whole "we don't partake in your celebrations and don't salute your gods" thing. but antisemitism prospered so much better under christianity, it really flourished.

However, you need to know the history of it. It wasn't that Christians one day just decided to hate Jews. It was a back and forth struggle between early Christians and the emerging Rabbinic Judaism. It is the outcome of an internal struggle between the two.

you need to stop playing with strawmen. I never claimed "the christians decided one day to hate the jews". I'm never saying all christians were are are antisemites. that's just strawmen so you can feel like you're arguing against what I said.

By the time of the Holocaust (not a Christian event. To label it such is simply ridiculous), antisemitism was widespread in Europe. Yes, some of that was because of Christianity. However, it was much more than that as well (every group was pretty much guilty of antisemitism, including atheists and agnostics).

that antisemitism has been fostered in a christian europe by christian authorities for nearly 2000 years.

Part of the problem was that Jews were a minority (thus easy to blame things on, which is what happened), and they created their own communities within communities. To a point, they isolated themselves from the general population. This raised suspicions. And it made them a very easy target.

there's two ways to kill jews: one is to kill them, the other is them assimiliating themselves.

so how was it a problem they didn't effectively suicide? the problem was that they got killed because they didn't, not that they didn't.

My point, you have to look at all of the factors instead of having such a narrow point of view. Ignoring the wide arrange of factors simply does a disservice to history, and people in general.

I was after all responding to someone who blamed the holocaust on white supremacy. I don't see you refuting my claim that that is utter ********, that's a start.

your strawmen, I don't care about them. I deal with this topic as a german AND a wannabe christian. if you think I'm just trying to blame something on christianity for fun, you're wrong. this stuff makes me sick to my stomach, but it's there, undeniably.


Martin Luther said:
What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly * and I myself was unaware of it * will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe*conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.


if only they hadn't made themselves such easy targets! *pukes*
 

not nom

Well-Known Member
Christianity=Antisemitism.

Yeah tell that to St Teresa Benedicta a Cruce (St. Edith Stein),Saint Maximilian Kolbe, The Saints who opened the doors to the convents to allow fleeing Jews, and of course tell the Jewish Christ and his 12 Apostles.

how does any of that undo the things you want to easily dismiss?

"The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."

-- St. Augustine

just one of soooooooooooooo many.

that's as if someone said "the nazis were a product of germany", and I say "tell that to germans who weren't nazis". no, that's not how it works.. "tell this to whom it doesn't apply, so we don't have to discuss where it DOES apply". nah.
 

not nom

Well-Known Member
And some Africans Semitic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

which is why nobody should.monopolize the word "anti-semetic" I mean technically Arab-Muslims can argue antisemetisim but I digress

antisemitism means hatred of jews, the word was invented for that purpose. it doesn't mean being againt semites, even though the word looks like it should mean that. it is an euphemism for hatred of jews, it was supposed to sound more scientific.

it's like "taking the ****" means making a joke, and not actually taking an amount of urine from somewhere, you know? it's what it means. if you don't believe me look it up.
 

Averroes

Active Member
antisemitism means hatred of jews, the word was invented for that purpose. it doesn't mean being againt semites, even though the word looks like it should mean that. it is an euphemism for hatred of jews, it was supposed to sound more scientific.

it's like "taking the ****" means making a joke, and not actually taking an amount of urine from somewhere, you know? it's what it means. if you don't believe me look it up.



I know. I am only saying that it should be applied to all semitic people
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
But also tell that to the Christians who said Jews killed Christ. Tell that to the Christian who tried to convert heathen Africans, and Native Americans. However yes there are some decent Christians on this planet. Like all cultures.
Painting a whole group as anti-semitic is just wrong.

Yes, Christians have been anti-semitic in the past. They have made blood-libels and pogroms, etc. Have all Christians been anti-semtic? No. Are Jews still called "Christ killers" as they once were? No. IN fact one would be disregarding Catholic teaching if s/he did so. Read this little qoute from Nostra Aetate;


True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.
Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.
Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church's preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God's all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows.
5. We cannot truly call on God, the Father of all, if we refuse to treat in a brotherly way any man, created as he is in the image of God. Man's relation to God the Father and his relation to men his brothers are so linked together that Scripture says: "He who does not love does not know God" (1 John 4:8).
No foundation therefore remains for any theory or practice that leads to discrimination between man and man or people and people, so far as their human dignity and the rights flowing from it are concerned.
The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to "maintain good fellowship among the nations" (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men,(14) so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.(15)
Declaration on the Relation of the Church to non-christian religions - Nostra Aetate



And of course do not forget when talking of the Papal Authroity, that at times Popes have spoken against persecution of the Jews, yet many Christians did not obey. In fact alot of times the situation was manipulated by so called CHristians for greedy intentions. Internet History Sourcebooks Project
 

not nom

Well-Known Member
In other words, what that guy wrote was not saying they "asked for it" but was simply describing treatment that has been done to many who were at one point a minority.

find me one group who has been denigrated so deeply, so thouroughly, and for a comparable amount of time, like the jews? they were singled out over and over again.

they were made to wear yellow stars for the first time in 13something, so there would be no excuse for christians and jews to intermingle or even have sexual relations and claim not knowing whom they are dealing with. how is that the jews separating themselves?

just like they ended up doing banking at first simply because christians thought that's dirty, let the jews do it. when the jews were too successful, the christians did it, too - but kept the prejudice, hate and resentment.

it all boils down to the arrogance of declaring jesus some kind of god king. someone who says "nah I'm happy with god, we go way back, kthxbye" drove them mad, anyone who doesn't bow causes offense. "every knee shall bow, every tongue confess" - or else. that was the basis of it.

it's easy to deny today of course, the churches being merely empty shells compared to the power they wielded. there were times were simply not partaking in the religious celebrations of the time would make on "suspicious". but christianity had and has those celebrations, those rules, those masses, that view of salvation, so that doesn't really change anything about the argument. christianity just doesn't have the influence anymore. praise god.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
how does any of that undo the things you want to easily dismiss?

"The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."

-- St. Augustine

just one of soooooooooooooo many.

that's as if someone said "the nazis were a product of germany", and I say "tell that to germans who weren't nazis". no, that's not how it works.. "tell this to whom it doesn't apply, so we don't have to discuss where it DOES apply". nah.
Who said I was trying to dismiss? Wow, so you found a supposed anti-semitic qoute by a Christian. Yeah, show me where I denied such. Show me where I denied there being anti-semitism within Christianity. No, I said not all Christians were anti-semitic. To think such would include thousands of examples of people who were opposite.

But I guess according to you, Germans who resisted Nazis were Nazis. Abolistionist were still slavery supporters, and Poles who fought against communism were communist.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
they were made to wear yellow stars for the first time in 13something, so there would be no excuse for christians and jews to intermingle or even have sexual relations and claim not knowing whom they are dealing with. how is that the jews separating themselves?

just like they ended up doing banking at first simply because christians thought that's dirty, let the jews do it. when the jews were too successful, the christians did it, too - but kept the prejudice, hate and resentment.

it all boils down to the arrogance of declaring jesus some kind of god king. someone who says "nah I'm happy with god, we go way back, kthxbye" drove them mad, anyone who doesn't bow causes offense. "every knee shall bow, every tongue confess" - or else. that was the basis of it.

it's easy to deny today of course, the churches being merely empty shells compared to the power they wielded. there were times were simply not partaking in the religious celebrations of the time would make on "suspicious". but christianity had and has those celebrations, those rules, those masses, that view of salvation, so that doesn't really change anything about the argument. christianity just doesn't have the influence anymore. praise god.
I think you just simply do not know what your talking about. You lack in knowledge of the Church, of history of the church and understanding the position of the church today as well as Papal influence. Nor do what you say make any sense.
 

not nom

Well-Known Member
Painting a whole group as anti-semitic is just wrong.

nobody is doing that. you're just using that as a strawman it seems? and again, this was in response to talking about white supremacists, if not simply "northern folk", in regards to the holocaust. I was just saying wait a minute, now that you mention it... that comes out of the christian corner, not the white supremacy corner. and it's true.

Yes, Christians have been anti-semitic in the past. They have made blood-libels and pogroms, etc. Have all Christians been anti-semtic? No. Are Jews still called "Christ killers" as they once were? No.

so? the holocaust kinda spoiled the fun of all that. also, we don't live in the dark ages anymore. however, we were talking about history. which is what it is.

And of course do not forget when talking of the Papal Authroity, that at times Popes have spoken against persecution of the Jews, yet many Christians did not obey.

sure, there's plenty of examples here:

Christianity and antisemitism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

however, christianity was the breeding ground for european antisemitism, that is undeniable. the pope is just one christian of many.
 
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