-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Muslims: Are Women EVER Responsible for Rape?
- Thread starter beenie
- Start date
No, of course she isn't "responsible". However, some equate correlation between actions/ways of dressing and being a victim, as responsibility. I don't think correlation = responsibility.
So one must distinguish between correlation, and causation.
For example, living in a poor neighborhood, where theres many drug users and gangs fighting all the time, increases the likelihood of a person ending up doing drugs, or even getting killed. Does that mean the person is at fault for his death, just because he was poor? No.
Likewise, if someone rich, wearing a Rolex watch and flashy jewelry walks into a poor dangerous neighborhood, then is killed and robbed. Does that mean we can blame him for his death and not the murderers? No. Did the way he dress in that area increase the likelihood of it happening? Yes.
Also, if a woman half naked, nearly drunk, in a similar area, would it be logical to say that the chances of her being raped, is totally equal to a nun or religious missionary with a religious book in her hand? No. Does that mean she is to be blamed? No.
To put it simply, if you had a daughter that dressed half naked and parties with all sorts of people all the time, would you worry about something bad happening to her just as much as you would if she were always modest, with good friends?
Another simple example, if a woman were in some far village somewhere in Africa, where abuse of women is common. Would it be logical to say that she'd feel equally safe if she wore a bikini or dressed as a conservative missionary? Probably not.
This has nothing to do with blaming victims. Denying that it can be a factor, or a variable in the equation requires answering the last two questions with a "yes", and teaching their daughters that it would make no difference at all in such circumstances in the last two questions, and I don't think any responsible parent would.
So one must distinguish between correlation, and causation.
For example, living in a poor neighborhood, where theres many drug users and gangs fighting all the time, increases the likelihood of a person ending up doing drugs, or even getting killed. Does that mean the person is at fault for his death, just because he was poor? No.
Likewise, if someone rich, wearing a Rolex watch and flashy jewelry walks into a poor dangerous neighborhood, then is killed and robbed. Does that mean we can blame him for his death and not the murderers? No. Did the way he dress in that area increase the likelihood of it happening? Yes.
Also, if a woman half naked, nearly drunk, in a similar area, would it be logical to say that the chances of her being raped, is totally equal to a nun or religious missionary with a religious book in her hand? No. Does that mean she is to be blamed? No.
To put it simply, if you had a daughter that dressed half naked and parties with all sorts of people all the time, would you worry about something bad happening to her just as much as you would if she were always modest, with good friends?
Another simple example, if a woman were in some far village somewhere in Africa, where abuse of women is common. Would it be logical to say that she'd feel equally safe if she wore a bikini or dressed as a conservative missionary? Probably not.
This has nothing to do with blaming victims. Denying that it can be a factor, or a variable in the equation requires answering the last two questions with a "yes", and teaching their daughters that it would make no difference at all in such circumstances in the last two questions, and I don't think any responsible parent would.
Last edited:
Muslim, how does your scenario play out when most rapes are committed by people the victim knows, and statistically few rapes occur in the dark alleys by strangers attacking so-called scantily-clad women?
Agree with jamaesi on this one.
Agree with jamaesi on this one.
Last edited:
Again, she isn't "responsible" either way. Saying so is ridiculous. But saying where she goes, who she hangs out with, the way she dresses and acts, doesn't influence the numbers at all, is ridiculous too.
As for your question ( despite the statistics being ones from a certain country at a certain time/era) I said it can be a factor. I didn't say it is a sole factor or even a main one. Im just against saying that it doesn't EVER increase the likelihood of being a victim. It shouldn't be ignored as if it doesn't exist.
If one were in a foreign unsafe country, would he/she as a parent, tell his or her daughter that it doesn't make a difference if she were half naked or dressed conservatively? Im sure you wouldn't. No responsible parent would ever advise that.
On top of this, it influencing the numbers, whether by %1 or any percentage, has nothing to do with "responsibility" of being a victim at all. These are two very distinct and different matters.
EDIT : So I think we are probably in agreement, and the disagreement - if there - is whether influencing the numbers and "responsibility" are the same thing. I think they are very different matters.
Last edited by a moderator:
ohhcuppycakee
Active Member
No, I don't think a woman is responsible if she is raped. No one asks to be raped. What I will say is I think all women need to learn what situations to avoid so she is less likely to be in a vulnerable position.
Exactly. Id go further than that to say, even if somehow makes a mistake and puts herself in a vulnerable position due to ignorance or being naive or whatever reason, and something bad happens, she isn't "responsible" for being a victim AT ALL.
jamaesi
To Save A Lamb
Given that most rapes are committed by a male against a female who have known each other for at least one year and the rape occurs in the woman's home or other residence where she feels safe while she is wearing clothing like jeans or sweatpants or pajamas and the rapist doesn't even remember what she was wearing anyway; how exactly is she supposed to avoid this situation? Kill herself? Never know /any/ man? Seriously, the hell?
Rape apologia is disgusting.
jamaesi
To Save A Lamb
Prove it. Give me some reputable studies that show that what women do or wear has anything to do with her being attacked. I'm not going to hold my breath here, though.
Just because the reality doesn't fit in with your narrow misogynist worldview doesn't mean it's not reality.
Exactly. I can see (and loathe the idea of) a woman being harassed for dressing a certain way (i.e., "hey hottie" type crap), but RAPE? No, I don't think so. Yes, women need to be smart about where they go, but it's never a reason/excuse/apology for rape.
First of all, who said anything about "excuse" and "apology"?
Second..Why do women need to be smart about where they go? Or how they dress especially in certain places? Using your logic, saying they should, means excusing rapists and blaming the victim.
ohhcuppycakee
Active Member
I'm just saying ladies should be extra careful. Someone very close to me got raped when she was only 14. She was alone with two guys she thought she was friends with and they raped her. I was only 8 years old at the time and remember the aftermath of the whole thing. This event has led me to believe women should avoid being alone with any guy. I'm not defending rapists at all. I am saying women should be careful. Please don't twist my words. I was a victim of sexual abuse myself.
jamaesi
To Save A Lamb
First of all, you have my sincerest apologies for what happened to you.
It's sort of hard for a woman to never be alone with any guy. Her brothers, uncles, father, grandfather, father-in-law, nephew, husband, etc; all of them could rape her and they're all mahram.
I'm not twisting your words, I'm taking umbrage with your use of rape apologia. Anytime someone makes an excuse for the rapist by saying things like if she wans't wearing that or if she wasn't there, they are engaging in rape apologia. I, too, am a sexual assault and rape survivor and I completely reject the rape culture and all it's associated evils like victim-blaming and ****-shaming. Feeding the rape culture and engaging in rape apologia hurts sexual assault and rape survivors.
Rape prevention tips do not stop rape and serve only to give a (mostly false) sense of security to women. Sure, sometimes when you get a bad feeling and remove yourself from a situation, you might be preventing some harm from coming from you; but that doesn't stop a rapist from following you or raping someone else. The only person who can stop a rapist is the rapist, it doesn't matter how many magical anti-rape tips anyone follows.
If anyone is interested in what I speak of when I mean "a bad feeling" I can not recommend Gavin de Becker's The Gift of Fear enough. It's not exactly a "rape prevention book" but I consider an absolute manual that every woman needs. Most of the book is just reassuring women that their intuition about people and situations (not limited to the topic of rape) is most likely spot on and helps to build their confidence. Women , by social conditioning, have trouble saying no in a lot of situations. This book is a how to guide on asserting yourself. Becker is very good about not engaging in victim-blaming, but there's once passage in the book that sort of hovered over the thin line. I can't remember what it was about or where it was in the book, so I can't really provide a trigger warning for it, I apologize.
gnostic said:
I'm not doubting you, just really unsure about what you mean.
Union
Well-Known Member
It is probably because they can't answer your question or you let their cats out of the bags . NB : you may be referring to Shia and Sunni , Hence you Muslims = Shia/Sunni .
gnostic
The Lost One
I am not suppose to take part in the debate, which is for " Muslims only", and I will not. I only posted here to say that I am glad to see that the issues of rape is being addressed here, and (I'd agree that) the victims should be blameless regardless of what clothes they are wearing (or not wearing) or walking about unescorted.
jamaesi
To Save A Lamb
Ah, okay. If there's anything else you wish to say, feel free to PM me.
A lot of Muslims seem to misunderstand what hijab really is and about; they just use it as a weapon against women and as yet another device of the rape culture and a way to ****-shame them.
I think we must differentiate between the cultural and social norms that could vary between the individuals and the societies, which I believe could lead to different statistics about rape and its perpetrators.
From The National Center for Victims of Crime
Seventy-seven (77)% of completed rapes are committed by non-strangers (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1997). A woman is four times more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than by a stranger (Illinois Coaliltion Against Sexual Assault, 2002).
----
Acquaintance rape is a sexual assault by an individual known to the victim. Another term "date rape" is a sexual assault by an individual with whom the victim has a "dating" relationship and the sexual assault occurs in the context of this relationship. Many of these rapes are violent, and all are coercive in nature.
----
Another factor in the reluctance of the criminal justice system to pursue acquaintance rape cases is that alcohol is often involved.
One study found that 75 percent (75%) of the males and 50 percent (50%) of the females involved in college campus acquaintance rapes had been drinking when the sexual assault occurred (Bohmer & Parrot, 1993).
----
Social standards condemn individuals for getting drunk and place blame on them when they are raped while drinking any alcohol, regardless of whether they were intoxicated at the time of the assault. In reality, whether the victim is drinking or not, the simple act of saying "no" means just that no consent has been given. If the victim is intoxicated, then there can be no capacity to consent. However, the voluntary intoxication of an offender cannot be used as a legal defense for committing the crime of sexual assault.
_______________________________
You spoke about mahram males, but what is the percentage of mahrams (father, uncles, brothers, etc.) who commit the crime? And when we talk about rape by a close family member, then this will take us to child rape too, which may not be the main concern of this thread.
What it appears to me that what is called "date rape" take a great part in the Western statistics of rape.
Now if talked about Islam, we would realize that it gives us the directions that can minimize the situations mentioned above; dating and having free relations between both sexes, inviting men who are not mahram to your house or going to their houses, alcohol...etc. Sticking to the Islamic guideline will greatly minimize the chance for non-mahram men to have privacy with women like that and will minimize such potentially dangerous situations for women. What I mean is that the Islamic teachings are comprehensive, it's not only about clothes, it affects us in the various life aspects and behaviors as individuals and as societies, which protect us from various problems and dangers.
I don't see how we can drive conclusions from statistics concerning USA for example and apply them on other different societies.
Thus, we need to understand the differences between the different societies...when, where and by whom rape is committed may statistically vary.
Last edited:
mohammed_beiruti
Active Member
no, of course not