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The 1000 White Babies Hypothesis

painted wolf

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
CynthiaCypher said:
Yes. But look at the rate in which dumb people are passing their genes onto the next generation, while the more intelligent of the species produce very few offspring. I guess stupid is the new fittest
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Except there is no genetic link to intelligence. It's a very old and very commonly held prejudice that isn't supported by biology. :tsk:

Intelligence is a result of education... not genetics. If you want smart people to reproduce, then encourage the culture to value decent education. :cool:

wa:do
 
Alceste

Alceste

Vagabond
painted wolf said:
Except there is no genetic link to intelligence. It's a very old and very commonly held prejudice that isn't supported by biology. :tsk:

Intelligence is a result of education... not genetics. If you want smart people to reproduce, then encourage the culture to value decent education. :cool:

wa:do
Click to expand...

Really? I never knew that. And my to think my poor mum married my mentally ill genius dad because she wanted smart kids...
 
painted wolf

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Alceste said:
Really? I never knew that. And my to think my poor mum married my mentally ill genius dad because she wanted smart kids...
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I bet your mom encouraged you to do well in school and learn. And likely went to a decent school.

However...
Don't confuse genes linked to brain function with those for "intelligence". Yes there are mutations that can impair mental functions and usually a suite of other physical attributes... but there isn't a gene that makes anyone smarter than another.

wa:do
 
CynthiaCypher

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
painted wolf said:
I bet your mom encouraged you to do well in school and learn. And likely went to a decent school.

However...
Don't confuse genes linked to brain function with those for "intelligence". Yes there are mutations that can impair mental functions and usually a suite of other physical attributes... but there isn't a gene that makes anyone smarter than another.

wa:do
Click to expand...

I agree intelligence is aproduct of the enviroment one grows up in, after stupid parents sometimes produce kids who are smarter than them.

Ok. But let's say that those who have a genetic mental impairment or let's say those who are genetically more suggestible do propagate at a greater rate than those who are not impaired or are not suggestible. Wouldn't that mean that those who are mentally impaired or more suggestible are the fittest?
 
painted wolf

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
CynthiaCypher said:
I agree intelligence is aproduct of the enviroment one grows up in, after stupid parents sometimes produce kids who are smarter than them.

Ok. But let's say that those who have a genetic mental impairment or let's say those who are genetically more suggestible do propagate at a greater rate than those who are not impaired or are not suggestible. Wouldn't that mean that those who are mentally impaired or more suggestible are the fittest?
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Perhaps in the short term... is this allele heritable? Is it heterozygus or homozygous... dominant or recessive? Genetics is a pretty complex business.

Ultimately, it depends on how their alleles impact the population over the long term.

wa:do
 
Alceste

Alceste

Vagabond
painted wolf said:
I bet your mom encouraged you to do well in school and learn. And likely went to a decent school.

However...
Don't confuse genes linked to brain function with those for "intelligence". Yes there are mutations that can impair mental functions and usually a suite of other physical attributes... but there isn't a gene that makes anyone smarter than another.

wa:do
Click to expand...

My whole family are readers. I grew up surrounded by them and everybody in my family - kids, parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents - often had their nose in a book. Rainy days at the cabin were pretty quiet - five or six people flopped around on all the couches and chairs, all with different books on the go.

The schools I went to were average suburbian public schools, but my parents were pretty big on learning it's true.

That's all good to know, anyway. I don't need to make any extra babies to bring up the intellectual average of the population - I can go with plan A and adopt some of the already born children who have nowhere to go and they will probably still turn out to be smart. :)
 
painted wolf

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Alceste said:
My whole family are readers. I grew up surrounded by them and everybody in my family - kids, parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents - often had their nose in a book. Rainy days at the cabin were pretty quiet - five or six people flopped around on all the couches and chairs, all with different books on the go.

The schools I went to were average suburbian public schools, but my parents were pretty big on learning it's true.

That's all good to know, anyway. I don't need to make any extra babies to bring up the intellectual average of the population - I can go with plan A and adopt some of the already born children who have nowhere to go and they will probably still turn out to be smart. :)
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Don't forget to be an active supporter of you local schools! We can't give kids a good education without supporting good schools and the good teachers that run them.

wa:do

Don't forget that children are still growing, so keep that in mind: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111020024329.htm
 
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RedOne77

RedOne77

Active Member
painted wolf said:
Except there is no genetic link to intelligence. It's a very old and very commonly held prejudice that isn't supported by biology. :tsk:

Intelligence is a result of education... not genetics. If you want smart people to reproduce, then encourage the culture to value decent education. :cool:

wa:do
Click to expand...

Um, I thoroughly disagree. Besides that intelligence is proximately caused by the emergent properties of brain function - which is partially determined by genetics (i.e. our frontal lobe is different than that of a dog because of our genes, not our environment), twin and adoption studies show that there is a correlation between genetics and intelligence.

I'm not saying that there is one gene that controls intelligence (can you show me the gene for sexual orientation?), or that it is wholly genetic, rather intelligence is a combination of nature and nurture.

If you'll allow a tangent: Racism is clearly not a very nice ideology, and to balance it out many people have overstated that there is no difference between races beyond skin color. While a nice sentiment, and obviously preferable to racism, it is demonstrably false. The idea that intelligence is independent of genetics may sound nice and fair and what it ought to be, it's vastly more opportunistic than a genetic determinism approach, but I think you're overstating the environmental factors in intelligence when you say that genetics don't play a role.
 
Averroes

Averroes

Active Member
RedOne77 said:
Um, I thoroughly disagree. Besides that intelligence is proximately caused by the emergent properties of brain function - which is partially determined by genetics (i.e. our frontal lobe is different than that of a dog because of our genes, not our environment), twin and adoption studies show that there is a correlation between genetics and intelligence.

I'm not saying that there is one gene that controls intelligence (can you show me the gene for sexual orientation?), or that it is wholly genetic, rather intelligence is a combination of nature and nurture.

If you'll allow a tangent: Racism is clearly not a very nice ideology, and to balance it out many people have overstated that there is no difference between races beyond skin color. While a nice sentiment, and obviously preferable to racism, it is demonstrably false. The idea that intelligence is independent of genetics may sound nice and fair and what it ought to be, it's vastly more opportunistic than a genetic determinism approach, but I think you're overstating the environmental factors in intelligence when you say that genetics don't play a role.
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Although there are various types of intelliengences, some brought about through environment, some through nature but yeah :clap:clap
 
painted wolf

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
RedOne77 said:
Um, I thoroughly disagree. Besides that intelligence is proximately caused by the emergent properties of brain function - which is partially determined by genetics (i.e. our frontal lobe is different than that of a dog because of our genes, not our environment), twin and adoption studies show that there is a correlation between genetics and intelligence.
Click to expand...
Be careful not to confuse genes for brain shape and function with intelligence.

Intelligence is a very slippery term and it has never been adequately defined nor has a bias free test for it been developed.

The problem with twin studies, is that the twins are sill being raised in the same general environment. The cultures are the same and the cultural values placed on education and the general access to education are the same.

One twin was not sheltered from getting an education while the other was given the best they could get. Twin studies are nice, but they are very limited in terms of experimental control. You simply can't run a truly scientifically effective experiment with humans. (it's immoral you know).

I'm not saying that there is one gene that controls intelligence (can you show me the gene for sexual orientation?), or that it is wholly genetic, rather intelligence is a combination of nature and nurture.
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Which is what I said. You can not simply breed "smart" or "stupid" people... it doesn't work that way.

If you'll allow a tangent: Racism is clearly not a very nice ideology, and to balance it out many people have overstated that there is no difference between races beyond skin color. While a nice sentiment, and obviously preferable to racism, it is demonstrably false.
Click to expand...
you are confusing haplogroups with races. Haplogroups are what are important not "race" as there are several haplogroups with distinct genetic lineages within each "race". Thus not all white people are the same nor are all black people and so on.
Race is genetically bunk.... haplogroups are genuine.

The idea that intelligence is independent of genetics may sound nice and fair and what it ought to be, it's vastly more opportunistic than a genetic determinism approach, but I think you're overstating the environmental factors in intelligence when you say that genetics don't play a role.
Click to expand...
How do you define intelligence?

wa:do
 
painted wolf

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Averroes said:
Research reveals genetic link to human intelligence
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They are careful not to say there is an intelligence gene, rather that there is a genetic influence... very different things. Like most other factors in human development there appears to be a suite of genes that have "influence" but not control of intelligence... as many as 1000 of them actually. Making intelligence less genetically determined than height, skin color or most other human phenotypes.

But back to this particular paper.
This study has a few flaws.... like all twin studies do.

One twin was not raised as a "control"... that is one twin was not denied access to an education. So the true role of educational access can not be determined.

They determined that variation in 40% of the crystallized and 51% of the fluid intelligence between individuals was caused by SNP's.... but again, how did they control for educational access, parental encouragement and hosts of other variables?

You simply can't do this type of experiment and get proper results.... frankly because it would be inhumane.

Another problem is the sample size... just over 3,000 people. Out of a population of 7 billion, that is pathetically small.

I could go on, but I don't want to ramble to much about a paper I don't have full access to... I'll sum up with: It's an interesting bit of work, but it still needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

wa:do
 
Averroes

Averroes

Active Member
painted wolf said:
They are careful not to say there is an intelligence gene, rather that there is a genetic influence... very different things. Like most other factors in human development there appears to be a suite of genes that have "influence" but not control of intelligence... as many as 1000 of them actually. Making intelligence less genetically determined than height, skin color or most other human phenotypes.

But back to this particular paper.
This study has a few flaws.... like all twin studies do.

One twin was not raised as a "control"... that is one twin was not denied access to an education. So the true role of educational access can not be determined.

They determined that variation in 40% of the crystallized and 51% of the fluid intelligence between individuals was caused by SNP's.... but again, how did they control for educational access, parental encouragement and hosts of other variables?

You simply can't do this type of experiment and get proper results.... frankly because it would be inhumane.

Another problem is the sample size... just over 3,000 people. Out of a population of 7 billion, that is pathetically small.

I could go on, but I don't want to ramble to much about a paper I don't have full access to... I'll sum up with: It's an interesting bit of work, but it still needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

wa:do
Click to expand...

Not sure if this was a longitudinal study but most research studies of course won't say "there is a genetic control of intelligence" but you're right there were some flaws in it as you pointed out
 
painted wolf

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
It's also impossible to pin down an "intelligence gene"... generally these genes are regulating specific processes and developmental stages in the brain as part of a suite of genes.
Which, while important for "intelligence" is not "intelligence" in itself.

Correlation is not causation. In genetics causation needs very specific evidence, like knock-out experiments to show direct gene to effect relationships.

wa:do
 
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