Shiva, Balance between the compassion and the vengefullness

I see most my threads have started with the name Shiva, and well, mostly questions

How do you personally interpret Shiva´s compassion and at the same time fierceness?

I still find this atributes weird to compare, because by one side I understand he is said to be the most compasionate god of the trimurti (probably open to interpretations that part? ) and for the other part he was also Rudra who is generaly asociated with rage and fierceness, and sometimes I read stuff that would seem to me as to be lacking in compassion or forgivenes.

How do you see this qualities intercating then?

Personally I see the symbolisms of Lord Shiva to be a balancing thing. There are moments in life when both qualities are necessary. In times of adversity, both within ourselves and within society we must be fierce in our intentions in order to preserve our moral values and freedoms.

However Compassion also plays a big part in making decisions that are free of ego attachments. If we act, even forcefully, from a place of compassion, then we will often act in a way that creates a beneficial outcome for all concerned.

Similar in concept to Gandhi's teachings on Ahimsa. Civil disobedience, whilst non-violent, did require people to display a fierce resistance when under pressure.

Also on Shiva's more destructive qualities I see another powerful message. In that sometimes change is immediate, forceful and at times for many people seems to take on a persona of wrath, giving little regard to our personal feelings. Many people who can not deal with change would relate to it from a place of fear, and I feel that Shiva represents that fear also. (I know I used to fear change a lot)

Also Shiva to me represents the cycles of existence. As there is creation, so is there destruction. To understand one, you must be presented with its opposite. To appreciate love, often you must experience loneliness, to appreciate joy we must also experience sadness.

Now I want you to understand. I am not Hindu, this is my own personal interpretation of what Lord Shiva represents from my own personal experience. It has been something that has been playing on my mind a lot lately.

I thank you for giving me this opportunity to share. I am sure that some who are more familiar with the Hindu Scriptures, will be able to give you a more in depth understanding of his symbols, in accordance with Hindu tradition and customs.

Peace!

Me Myself said:

I see most my threads have started with the name Shiva, and well, mostly questions

How do you personally interpret Shiva´s compassion and at the same time fierceness?

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I don't. All I see is compassion. The fierceness comes from some misinterpretation, or a very different view than the one I hold.

I think Shiva's destructive aspect exists to destroy evil.
Fist the smaller evils like sickness, pain, hunger, ... etc. and ulimatelly the reason of them: the ego.

Vasiel said:

Personally I see the symbolisms of Lord Shiva to be a balancing thing. There are moments in life when both qualities are necessary. In times of adversity, both within ourselves and within society we must be fierce in our intentions in order to preserve our moral values and freedoms.

However Compassion also plays a big part in making decisions that are free of ego attachments. If we act, even forcefully, from a place of compassion, then we will often act in a way that creates a beneficial outcome for all concerned.

Similar in concept to Gandhi's teachings on Ahimsa. Civil disobedience, whilst non-violent, did require people to display a fierce resistance when under pressure.

Also on Shiva's more destructive qualities I see another powerful message. In that sometimes change is immediate, forceful and at times for many people seems to take on a persona of wrath, giving little regard to our personal feelings. Many people who can not deal with change would relate to it from a place of fear, and I feel that Shiva represents that fear also. (I know I used to fear change a lot)

Also Shiva to me represents the cycles of existence. As there is creation, so is there destruction. To understand one, you must be presented with its opposite. To appreciate love, often you must experience loneliness, to appreciate joy we must also experience sadness.

Now I want you to understand. I am not Hindu, this is my own personal interpretation of what Lord Shiva represents from my own personal experience. It has been something that has been playing on my mind a lot lately.

I thank you for giving me this opportunity to share. I am sure that some who are more familiar with the Hindu Scriptures, will be able to give you a more in depth understanding of his symbols, in accordance with Hindu tradition and customs.

Peace!

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Thanks to you for sharing

:namaste

Vinayaka said:

I don't. All I see is compassion. The fierceness comes from some misinterpretation, or a very different view than the one I hold.

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May you elaborate?

What do you think of the puranas? Some of what I´ve read in Shiva puranas sumaries is kind of rough or somewhat confusing. I still haven´t read anything about Rudra beyond descriptions of him as being fearsome.

Would you care to elaborate how do you think the misconseptions arise in this subject?

I summarised my view of Shiva here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2398938-post23.html It does go a little deeper than that. But then its more into feelings, religious emotion, and bhakti. I'm drawn to the magnetism of ancient temples, especially in Tamil Nadu, like Tanjore, or Chidambaram.

For the most part, I ignore the Puranas. They're antiquated and poorly written metaphorical stuff. I think they will slowly go by the wayside with a couple more generations, just as the Laws of Manu are now considered largely irrelevant.

As for misconceptions, a lot has to do with taking things literally. This hits to a sore point amongst many Hindus, I also don't believe in the Ramayana and Mahabharata as literal history. A being with 10 heads, the other nine attached to the side of the original one horizontally? (Ravana) Come on. It defies science, and is easily interpreted as having a big ego.

The other more cynical reason is that the anti-Hindu (not necessarily intentionally) forces have carried out and enjoyed these misconceptions because of their interpreting based on another world view (Abrahamic). So dissolution is translated as destruction, adharmic is translated as evil, etc. Geographically, I think there is evidence that the farther North you go in India, the more distortion, with the exception of the Himalayan caves themselves.

In my version of Hinduism , there is no evil, but there is anava, karma, maya, forces that lead us to not progress on the path. But pure evil...? Nah.

Vinayaka said:

For the most part, I ignore the Puranas. They're antiquated and poorly written metaphorical stuff. I think they will slowly go by the wayside with a couple more generations, just as the Laws of Manu are now considered largely irrelevant.

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You must have lost your mind. The Puranas are probably the most important text in contemporary Hinduism. I think more Hindus have grown up hearing selected stories from them than from anything else, including the Gita. Because its so saturated in the Hindu culture and psyche.

Again, and again you make me question the authenticity of you being a Hindu.

Come on. It defies science, and is easily interpreted as having a big ego.

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Who having a big ego? Don't tell me that you speaking this of Lord Vishnu!!! God please help you!

Vinayaka said:

The other more cynical reason is that the anti-Hindu (not necessarily intentionally) forces have carried out and enjoyed these misconceptions because of their interpreting based on another world view (Abrahamic). So dissolution is translated as destruction

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Can you explain what you mean here?

Vinayaka said:

For the most part, I ignore the Puranas. They're antiquated and poorly written metaphorical stuff. I think they will slowly go by the wayside with a couple more generations, just as the Laws of Manu are now considered largely irrelevant.

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I consider metaphorical texts to still be important (within any religion) simply because whilst they may not be something to be taken literally, they do add a certain "flavour" to that belief systems.

With most metaphorical texts I tend to learn a lot from the symbolisms and the experiences that the stories, no matter how far-fetched they seem to logical thinkers, portray and how the characters deal with the situations they are faced with.

Whilst the stories themselves may not seem possible to most minds of today, I still personally think they have something to teach us. But that's me. If something isn't literal, I tend to look at the symbols or the experiences portrayed in the stories to see if I can apply any of the ideals to my own life.

Or even if I can find past experiences in my life, or current circumstances, that are "mirror images" of the stories being portrayed.

But that's my personal take on things.

Namaste!

ngupta said:

Again, and again you make me question the authenticity of you being a Hindu.

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Likewise, I can assure you. But it once again demonstrates how vast Hinduism is. It has room for both of us.

Vinayaka said:

Likewise, I can assure you. But it once again demonstrates how vast Hinduism is. It has room for both of us.

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The way I understand it, Hinduism is far more than one religion.

About your view on it:

Which texts or sources are the ones form which your believes about Shiva steam from?

Lord Shiva is also called Bhole Nath which means the God who is innocent, and truly it is very easy to please him. he is pleased even with the slightest of affection. lord shiva represents destruction in the holy trinity. you must have heard the story where shiva agreed to drink the poison that came out of the ocean when devas and danavas set out to churn it and retrieve valuable goods from it. similarly he kept the task of destruction for himself. the fierceness is a part of the role assigned to him.

anisha_astrologer said:

Lord Shiva is also called Bhole Nath which means the God who is innocent, and truly it is very easy to please him. he is pleased even with the slightest of affection. lord shiva represents destruction in the holy trinity. you must have heard the story where shiva agreed to drink the poison that came out of the ocean when devas and danavas set out to churn it and retrieve valuable goods from it. similarly he kept the task of destruction for himself. the fierceness is a part of the role assigned to him.

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Yes, I love that story

Vinayaka said:

Likewise, I can assure you. But it once again demonstrates how vast Hinduism is. It has room for both of us.

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Your statements there were anti-Hindu. Clear and outright.

I honestly question your claim to being Hindu and your motives when you make statements such as those.

Your views are derogatory and out of touch with reality. Even anyone who is non-Hindu but has enough knowledge about the religion will know how ubiquitous the Puranas are in contemporary Hinduism. They are more widely read and believed than even the Veda or Gita. Common knowledge.

There is difference between tolerance and acception of varying views and defamation and dillusion. Tolerance and diversity of thought doesnt mean room for malice and mischief.

Well for example one of the stories that comes to my mind is one in which Brahma was chanting hymns to Shiva with his 5 heads, but one of them was mispelling most of the hymns. Shiva got mad at this head and chopped it off.

Those are the kind of things I don´t know if I should take as lila maybe? That one is in Shiva purana. the thing is that it is kind of weird because it is one of the trimurti chanting his hymns, with 4 heads doing it right and he getsm ad with theone doing it wrong and punish it. Besides he is the "easily pleased" so it is kind of weird, I would think he would love the chanting even if one is clumsy, as long as one has the heart in the right place.

ngupta said:

Even anyone who is non-Hindu but has enough knowledge about the religion will know how ubiquitous the Puranas are in contemporary Hinduism. They are more widely read and believed than even the Veda or Gita. Common knowledge.

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I agree with this as what it is in reality, but I also don't necessarily see the wisdom in it. There is a reason we Hindus (despite what you think I am) are losing our youth in droves. It is also true that in parts of India corporal punishment is widespread in home and in schools despite it being illegal in schools. I don't necessarily see the wisdom in that either as it violates ahimsa.

Vinayaka said:

I agree with this as what it is in reality, but I also don't necessarily see the wisdom in it. There is a reason we Hindus (despite what you think I am) are losing our youth in droves. It is also true that in parts of India corporal punishment is widespread in home and in schools despite it being illegal in schools. I don't necessarily see the wisdom in that either as it violates ahimsa.

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I agree. I don't put too much stock into something written by men as "scholarly interpretations." Then again, I also don't really believe in the concept of divine inspiration so the Vedas in my opinion aren't special to me beyond any other philosophical or scriptural work.


A lot of Shiva's mythological stories do come from the Puranas. As a classical dancer, I'm familiar with a lot of the stories of Shiva, and it often portrays him as very... angry, for the lack of a better word.

Take for instance, the song Roopamu Joochi by Sri Muthiswami Dik****ar. In the piece, the heroine lovingly approaches Shiva (as Lord Thyagaraja of Thiruvarur) and he becomes angry. I'm not too sure exactly how Dik****ar meant it; it could mean that Shiva is angry that a human approached him in such an amorous way, an act only appropriate between equals. Or maybe because he was busy meditating and was interrupted by her advances.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the one where he incinerates Kama Deva from the Puranas? I don't think he likes being disturbed very much.

Ardhanariswar said:

I agree. I don't put too much stock into something written by men as "scholarly interpretations." Then again, I also don't really believe in the concept of divine inspiration so the Vedas in my opinion aren't special to me beyond any other philosophical or scriptural work.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the one where he incinerates Kama Deva from the Puranas? I don't think he likes being disturbed very much.

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I really don't know. As I said before, I'm not very familiar with them as I didn't read them. I'm a western adoptive, not a born Hindu (another reason why I'm not Hindu in some eyes) so our take is a bit different. I too have seen Bharata Natyam performances. Basically I think for such things as well as devising a Hindu curriculum for children, the Puranas is basically all we have to work with, although I do see that changing. For one thing, they're old. Kids prefer current stuff. Facebook, more facebook, twitter, etc.

Me Myself said:

I see most my threads have started with the name Shiva, and well, mostly questions

How do you personally interpret Shiva´s compassion and at the same time fierceness?

I still find this atributes weird to compare, because by one side I understand he is said to be the most compasionate god of the trimurti (probably open to interpretations that part? ) and for the other part he was also Rudra who is generaly asociated with rage and fierceness, and sometimes I read stuff that would seem to me as to be lacking in compassion or forgivenes.

How do you see this qualities intercating then?

Click to expand...

Hello Me Myself

If one reads Shiva Sahsranama or Rudram one gets this impression. Shiva is wrath embodied on one hand and Compassion on the other. Sages say that a particular attribute or a set of attributes does not capture Him. All together also do not.

Shiva is the happy one.

----- unseen, actionless, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable, indescribable, whose proof consists in the identity of the Self (in all states), in which all phenomena come to a cessation, and which is unchanging, auspicious shiva -- that is the Self that must be known.

------ he who has known him who is more subtile than subtile, in the midst of chaos, creating all things, having many forms, alone enveloping everything, the happy one (shiva), passes into peace for ever.

---- That Bhagavat exists in the faces, the heads, the necks of all, he dwells in the cave (of the heart) of all beings, he is all-pervading, therefore he is the omnipresent Shiva

Yet, scriptures also say that the Self is the freind and the Self is the enemy of the self. It is here that the Self which is inner to self will appear to be sweet or as wrath, depending on oneself.

The same Self which appeared as wrath or as benevolent will be known as the reality that is simply the HAPPY ONE -- the One without a Second.

Vinayaka said:

I really don't know. As I said before, I'm not very familiar with them as I didn't read them. I'm a western adoptive, not a born Hindu (another reason why I'm not Hindu in some eyes) so our take is a bit different. I too have seen Bharata Natyam performances. Basically I think for such things as well as devising a Hindu curriculum for children, the Puranas is basically all we have to work with, although I do see that changing. For one thing, they're old. Kids prefer current stuff. Facebook, more facebook, twitter, etc.

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dear prabhu ji's

whilst I have great respect for each devotee and each tradition , and dont want to go against anyone elses so called take on hinduism ,I too am a western born as you put it adoptee .
so I am doubley carefull not to try to see hindu culture through western eyes , nor do I think we as westerners should make any attempt or even contemplate in our own minds that we can make any revision of the hindu canon it is not for us to bring it in to the 21st century , if that is appropriate it will happen by divine intervention and should not happen on the whim of our weak judgement .
If anything we as westerners should be as humble as a child thinking not to dissmiss , but to strive to understand , we should best generate an open heart and an open mind then the puranas become meaningfull in a way not known to our culture for centurys , as we have dismissed much richness in our own culture deeming it out dated and exchanging it for material advancement and technalogical gain .

we should ask allso why we have addopted an alien beleif ?

In my case it is because I had felt that in the west we have lost so much that held society together , we had lost our hearts as human beings , we have thrown away much of the richness of our culture , thinking our selves so advanced and so full of our accheivements , yet they are purely matterial , and we are the foolish not the wise .

I hope what you say can be avoided , to think that just because the puranas are old , that they should be replaced with some ......? ..."kids prefer moddern stuff , face book , twitter ..." ......... honestly , heaven help us !!!
kids need more than this !!!! kids are young people they need guidance and direction , much like some adults , and the so called myths and story telling contained in the puranas is as relavant to day as ever it was it is for us to learn to use our minds rather than to allow them to become full of mindless self obsessed twitter !

and as a westerner I sincerely hope that I will be accepted as just another hindu and dread the thought that I might be creating or simply being a part of a sub sect of "ones with a different take'
I dont think I want to be one of your "our" .... no room for any us or them just 'shraddha'
I am one of faith :yes:

ok Im happy now

Ithink I will go read something inspiring , a purana prehaps

sanatana dharma ki jai ...ratikala