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Liberals _have_ to clean up the faith?

GPV

Member
Do you agree with the idea that it is up to liberal believers to control what fanatical believers do or change the faith somehow and prevent fanatics from coming into existence?

I have been hit with this idea more than once by posters on other forums lately, so I finally decided to blog a little about it in terms of why I don't think we are totally responsible for what goes on in our faith and what could be done to lessen the number of fanatics:

http://www.livejournal.com/community/thought_express/14905.html
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
GPV said:
Do you agree with the idea that it is up to liberal believers to control what fanatical believers do or change the faith somehow and prevent fanatics from coming into existence?
no, i do not agree with changing the faith in any way to try and exclude any particular group of people, no matter how much my views may differ to theirs!

it is not up to me to dictate religion to anyone! everyoen has the right to believe how they want to
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
corrupt_priest said:
no, i do not agree with changing the faith in any way to try and exclude any particular group of people, no matter how much my views may differ to theirs!

it is not up to me to dictate religion to anyone! everyoen has the right to believe how they want to
That was my first reaction, CP; thinking about it though, perhaps when people of a faith are 'pointed in a certain direction' by Church leaders which is to the detriment of society, (ie go kill anyone who doesn't believe in...........), maybe that is valid. But those are extreme cases - and one is particularly 'apt' at the moment; the trouble is, I think the teachings are more a case of indoctrination.....which is very difficult to deal with.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
It depends on the medium in question. For instance in the state of Kanas evolution is not taught in public schools. I strongly blame the liberal christians for allowing the removal of science for ID theory. Fundamentalists (those who believe the bible is the inerrant word of god) would not have blocked the teaching of evolution without either liberal Christian support or liberal christian apathy.

In the area of white suppremacy which also requires one to accept Jesus as their personal savior I do not hold the liberal christian accountable. The difference between this example and the previous one is white supremests keep to themsevles taking them outside main stream societies influence whereas with the propogation of ID theology as science and the suppression of the evidencable theory of evolution all of society is impacted include non-christians based on what is pretty much in the states a christian movement.

In the same breath I hold liberal christians who are pro-abortion or pro-choice accountable for the current pressure to reverse roe-v-wade The reason being is that they have not helped the secular groups repel the attempts to illegalize abortion and have due to their apathy, made it a really tough battle for non-christians to fight.

Liberal christians have a distinct advantage politically over other groups because they are not outsiders. If is say abortion is a postive thing, seperation of church and state is a positive thing, the lemon test is important to inforce, or ID should not be taught in public schools I am just some outsider non-theists to most Christians. However liberal christians, and I realize liberal is quite a subjective term (though it could be argued with the hundreds of branches of christianty that jehovah is a subjective term) but at least liberal christians are many times seen as part of the group who celebrate the mircle of Jesus and thus have more social negociaitng power.

Michel it is quite a differnt game over here. We are experiencing in America at the moment, a strong push towards a Christian theocracy. The reason for the progess towards the intragation of church and state, on our side of the ocean, is the reality that a small group of secular americans who are on the fringes of politics with few non-theist represenatives are up against the stronger Christian goups with many politcal allies in congress the senate and even the president of the united states. So strong in fact that in the last 5 plus years signing bills in churches, which would have been taboo say in the mid 80's and early 90's is fairly a common occurance here.
 
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michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Fair enough Rob, and I can see that for myself. However, shouldn't the electorate be able to do something about this state of affairs ?
 

Pah

Uber all member
michel said:
Fair enough Rob, and I can see that for myself. However, shouldn't the electorate be able to do something about this state of affairs ?
In most cases, it has taken a Supreme Court decision to get legislation behind and insisting on equailty. The problem we see today is the neverending thrust for a theocracy. The Courts decide, then laws are passed, spearheaded by the minority Christian group, that flaunt, time after time, the voice of justice.

I would approve of succession if South Carolina asked after they have been taken over by Christians wanting a theocracy. But theocracy is not for my beloved country. Some of us truely despise the effort to convert the rest of the population to a narrow-minded, conservative religion. That effort is made from a faith so weak that is can not convert others except by force of law. I can not understand why other Christians accomodate that faith - it is the mainstream religious freedom that is at stake.
 

GPV

Member
corrupt_priest said:
no, i do not agree with changing the faith in any way to try and exclude any particular group of people, no matter how much my views may differ to theirs!

it is not up to me to dictate religion to anyone! everyoen has the right to believe how they want to
I agree with you, but what of those cases here in the USA where some Christians want to control a woman's body, refuse to allow gays to marry, and throw out science and teach religion in public schools? Do they have the right to push all of that on people who don't want it? Isn't it enough for them to never opt to have abortions, marry gays, or teach evolution to their own families without forcing all of that on other families who do not agree with those stances?
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
GPV said:
Isn't it enough for them to never opt to have abortions, marry gays, or teach evolution to their own families without forcing all of that on other families who do not agree with those stances?
Would you support this if we were talking about other social issues?

Murder (of those already born), for instance......... would it be enough to "never to opt" to murder anyone?------>would that be enough to abolish all laws the prohibit the intentional killing of another human being?
 

GPV

Member
Scott1 said:
Would you support this if we were talking about other social issues?

Murder (of those already born), for instance......... would it be enough to "never to opt" to murder anyone?------>would that be enough to abolish all laws the prohibit the intentional killing of another human being?
No, I agree that we need to have laws to prevent murder and deal with it. However I do not believe that abortion is murder as it is not yet a person. In terms of quantifying suffering physically and emotionally I determine that the greater suffering goes to the mother than the embryo.

So while I think it is very sad that that potential life is not fulfilled this time around (I believe in reincarnation... God aborted my first two babies, but I firmly believe the two children I have now are those same children returned to me by Him) I think that soul will have another chance to return to earth. The mother, however, could have been subjected to terrible suffering had she carried that baby, especially in the case of rape or a very young teen who just cannot handle pregnancy physically or emotionally.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
GPV said:
No, I agree that we need to have laws to prevent murder and deal with it.
Glad we agree on that....
However I do not believe that abortion is murder as it is not yet a person. In terms of quantifying suffering physically and emotionally I determine that the greater suffering goes to the mother than the embryo.
Well, I'm sure you can guess we disagree on this... but this is not a debate forum.:)
So while I think it is very sad that that potential life is not fulfilled this time around (I believe in reincarnation... God aborted my first two babies, but I firmly believe the two children I have now are those same children returned to me by Him) I think that soul will have another chance to return to earth.
Wow... I do appreciate your very personal story.... may God bless you and your children.
The mother, however, could have been subjected to terrible suffering had she carried that baby, especially in the case of rape or a very young teen who just cannot handle pregnancy physically or emotionally.
Again, we'll have to save this for another chat..... someone I love very dearly is the "product" of a rape, and I thank God every day that this person was not killed in the womb.
 

GPV

Member
Scott1 said:
Glad we agree on that....
Well, I'm sure you can guess we disagree on this... but this is not a debate forum.:)
Wow... I do appreciate your very personal story.... may God bless you and your children.
Again, we'll have to save this for another chat..... someone I love very dearly is the "product" of a rape, and I thank God every day that this person was not killed in the womb.
Thank you for your blessings. I am glad you have that dear friend, just as I am very glad I have myd two boys.. even the one who was an OOPS at first. I am glad your dear friend's mother was strong enough emotionally to go through that pregnancy. Not all women are. :(
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
GPV said:
Thank you for your blessings. I am glad you have that dear friend, just as I am very glad I have myd two boys.. even the one who was an OOPS at first. I am glad your dear friend's mother was strong enough emotionally to go through that pregnancy. Not all women are. :(
Hehe.... an "OOPS" .... God bless every OOPS!

Thanks again for sharing such a personal part of your faith with us.... PLEASE stick around the forum, I have the feeling I'm going to enjoy reading your posts! Welcome to RF.
 

GPV

Member
Scott1 said:
Hehe.... an "OOPS" .... God bless every OOPS!

Thanks again for sharing such a personal part of your faith with us.... PLEASE stick around the forum, I have the feeling I'm going to enjoy reading your posts! Welcome to RF.
Thanks. :D

I admit I am a hither and thither type. I may come in and post great guns for three weeks then drop off the face of the earth for 4 months. I seem to be cyclical in how I live my life, and not with just internet message board posting. *lol*
 
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