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YHWH: 'translating' it correctly

Jayhawker Soule

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Premium Member
From a sequestered thread ...
he could translate yod het waw het corrrectly, which is more then I can say for many other 'translators' :D
Noting first and foremost that 'translation' and 'speculative vocalization' are not at all the same thing, what is this correct translation that some seem so proud of, and what is the evidence?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
YHWH: 'translating' it correctly. From a sequestered thread ...
"Originally Posted by Pegg: he could translate yod het waw het corrrectly, which is more then I can say for many other 'translators'"
Noting first and foremost that 'translation' and 'speculative vocalization' are not at all the same thing, what is this correct translation that some seem so proud of, and what is the evidence?

"Correct translation" of the tetragrammaton?! What sort of nonsense is that?

The tetragrammaton is a verbal paradox. Whatever its correct vocalization might be-- and that is surely not Jehovah, or Yahweh, or suchlike-- its translation is impossible. The word represents the root of the verb lihiyot (.ה.ו.ה) conjugated into all three tenses simultaneously, as an allusion to God's nature as eternal and infinite. There is no single word in any language that I am aware of, even Hebrew, that completely encompasses that idea, which is why the tetragrammaton is so structured.

Therefore, it seems to me that, unless one wishes to use some of the classic Hebrew euphemisms used for God's name, or an equivalent poetic euphemism in the language one speaks, the best translation of the tetragrammaton is "God."
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
From a sequestered thread ...Noting first and foremost that 'translation' and 'speculative vocalization' are not at all the same thing, what is this correct translation that some seem so proud of, and what is the evidence?

What is most important is not how God's name Jehovah was pronounced in ancient Hebrew, but that we acknowledge God's personal name and use it to praise him. Calling him God or Lord is tantamount to calling a person Man or Sir. Anyone who truly knows God must know his proper name. Jehovah has been in common usage for centuries and is the most commonly used translation of YHWH or JHVH.
 

Jayhawker Soule

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Premium Member
What is most important is not how God's name Jehovah was pronounced in ancient Hebrew, but that we acknowledge God's personal name and use it to praise him. Calling him God or Lord is tantamount to calling a person Man or Sir.
Yep. Those foolish Jews have been doing it wrong for millinnia. So glad that you came to set us straight. :D
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
What is most important is not how God's name Jehovah was pronounced in ancient Hebrew, but that we acknowledge God's personal name and use it to praise him. Calling him God or Lord is tantamount to calling a person Man or Sir. Anyone who truly knows God must know his proper name. Jehovah has been in common usage for centuries and is the most commonly used translation of YHWH or JHVH.

Actually, from what I can recall is that Jehovah was produced out of confusion. And I doubt it is the most used form or even the personal name of God.

I think Levite makes some great points and I have to agree with him.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
What is most important is not how God's name Jehovah was pronounced in ancient Hebrew, but that we acknowledge God's personal name and use it to praise him. Calling him God or Lord is tantamount to calling a person Man or Sir. Anyone who truly knows God must know his proper name. Jehovah has been in common usage for centuries and is the most commonly used translation of YHWH or JHVH.

1. Why is God's "personal" name needed to praise him? If He knows your heart and your heart has the intent of directing worship towards him, then what does it matter what you call Him?

2. Let's say that using God is like using sir or man. Why is that bad? God is our King, after all.

3. Anyone who truly knows God must know His proper name....so you don't know Him then?

4. Jehovah isn't a translation. I don't know what it is, but is seems to be an attempt at pronouncing the tetragrammaton.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
He over-reaches.

Actually, if you're going to accuse anyone of over-reaching, you should be accusing Rabbi Chaim Paltiel, Rabbi Menachem Recanati, Rabbi Menachem Meiri, the Ravad (Rabbi Avraham ben David), and the Vilna Gaon, who all say pretty much the same thing, but they said it first, and better.
 

Jayhawker Soule

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Premium Member
Actually, if you're going to accuse anyone of over-reaching, you should be accusing Rabbi Chaim Paltiel, Rabbi Menachem Recanati, Rabbi Menachem Meiri, the Ravad (Rabbi Avraham ben David), and the Vilna Gaon, who all say pretty much the same thing, but they said it first, and better.
Nice laundry list. You over-reach. All - ALL - speculation about YHWH is precicely that: speculation.
 

sadiq

Spain, Morocco, Jerusalem
I remember reading that the High-Priest used Yahweh i'm not sure that's correct though.
Anyways i don't think anyone can be sure now considering it's forbidden in Judaism and is substituted by "Adonai" or similar bywords.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Fine. If I am over-reaching in that company, I am comfortable over-reaching among rabbis far, far great than I.
Why? Let's look at it ...

You offer:
  • Rabbeinu Abraham ben David was a Provençal rabbi, a great commentator on the Talmud, Sefer Halachot of Rabbi Yitzhak Alfasi and Mishne Torah of Maimonides, ... born in Provence, France, about 1125 CE; died at Posquières, 27 November 1198 CE.
  • Chaim Paltiel (known as Paltiel of Falaise) was a French Biblical commentator of the thirteenth century and grandson of the tosafist Samuel of Falaise (Sir Morel).
  • Menahem ben Benjamin Recanati (1250-1310) (Hebrew: מנחם בן בנימין ריקנטי‎) was an Italian rabbi who flourished at the close of the thirteenth century and in the early part of the fourteenth.
  • Rabbi Menachem Meiri (1249 – c. 1310) was a famous Catalan rabbi, Talmudist and Maimonidean.
  • Elijah ben Shlomo Zalman Kramer, (Hebrew: ר' אליהו בן שלמה זלמן‎) known as the Vilna Gaon or Elijah of Vilna and simply by his Hebrew acronym Gra ("Gaon Rabbenu Eliyahu") or Elijah Ben Solomon, (b. Vilnius April 23, 1720, d. Vilaus October 9, 1797),was a Talmudist, halachist, kabbalist, and the foremost leader of non-hasidic Jewry of the past few centuries.
It is, indeed, a remarkable cast of characters. I was particularly struck with the following comment on the Vilna Gaon:
The Gaon applied to the Talmud and rabbinic literature proper philological methods. He made an attempt toward a critical examination of the text; and thus, very often with a single reference to a parallel passage, or with a textual emendation, he overthrew tenuous decisions made by his rabbinic predecessors. [emphasis added - JS]
He devoted much time to the study of the Torah and Hebrew grammar, and was knowledgeable in the secular sciences, enriching the latter by his original contributions. His pupils and friends had to pursue the same plain and simple methods of study that he followed. He also exhorted them not to neglect the secular sciences, maintaining that Judaism could only gain by studying them. The Gaon was also attracted to the study of Kabbalah; his controversy with Hasidic Judaism thus stems not from a rejection of mysticism per se, but from a profoundly different understanding of its teachings, in particular regarding its relationship to halakhah and the Ashkenazic minhag. [ibid]
I find that most impressive and I would very much appreciate it if you could supply me with his comments on the Tetragrammaton.

At the same time, I can only hope and expect that such a man, a man who "applied to the Talmud and rabbinic literature proper philological methods. ... [and] ... a critical examination of the text; and thus, ... overthrew tenuous decisions made by his rabbinic predecessors" would avail himself of all current philological scholarship were he living today. And, much like Rashi, I am confident that such a man would openly acknowledge questions for which there is no certain answer - only informed opinion.

Though this may take us a bit far afield, let me share something concerning a well know phrase in Ki Tavo: arami oved avi. I'm sure you can find plenty of commentary on the phrase. An excelent discussion can be found in the Schechter Haggadah. How shall we translate the verse in question? Let me offer a few:
  • The ArtScroll Stone Edition Tanach
    Then you shall call out and say before Hashem, your God, "An Aramean tried to destroy my forefather. He descended to Egypt and sojourned there, few in number, and there he became a nation -- great, strong, and numerous.​
  • Judaica Press Tanach with Rashi (Chabad)
    And you shall call out and say before the Lord, your God, "An Aramean [sought to] destroy my forefather, and he went down to Egypt and sojourned there with a small number of people, and there, he became a great, mighty, and numerous nation.​
  • Targum Onkelos (J. W. Etheridge, M.A., 1862) [2nd century CE - JF]
    And thou shalt answer and say before the Lord thy God: Laban the Aramite sought to destroy my father, I and he went down to Mizraim, and dwelt there with a few people, but became there a people great and strong.​
  • Septaugint: New English Translation
    And in reply you shall say before the Lord your God: “My ancestor abandoned Syria and went down into Egypt and sojourned there, few in number, and there he became a nation, great and numerous, many and great.​
  • Soncino Chumash: Rabbi Dr. J. H. Hertz
    And thou shalt speak and say before the Lord thy God: "A wandering Aramean was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there, few in number; and he became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous.​
  • Torah: A Modern Commentary; W. Gunther Plaut
    You shall then recite as follows before the Lord your God: “My father was a fugitive Aramean. He went down to Egypt with meager numbers and sojourned there; but he became a great and very populous nation.​
And, of course, we're aware of how the phrase is rendered in our Pesach Haggadah. But what do our Sages say? Well ...
  • Rashi: 11th century; Rabbi Shlomo Yitzhaki - Troyes, France
    Arami oved Avi. (An Aramean sought to destroy my father). Laban sought to uproot all when he pursued after Jacob. And because he contemplated doing so, God charges him as though he had done it for as regards the nations of the world the Holy One Blessed Be God considers a thought equivalent to a deed.​
  • Rashbam: 12th century; Rabbi Shmuel ben Meir – Troyes, France (Rashi’s grandson)
    Arami oved Avi. (My father was a wandering Aramean). My father Abraham was an Aramean, wandering and exiled in the land of Aram. As it is written, "Go forth from your land" (Genesis 12:1) and as it's written, "So when God made me wander from my father's house" (Genesis 20:13).​
  • Ibn Ezra: 12th century; Rabbi Abraham ben Meir Ibn Ezra - Tudela, Spain
    Arami Oved Avi. (a lost Aramean). The word "oved" is intransitive. And if the word "Arami" were to indicate Laban, the text would have written "ma'abed" or "ma'avid." And furthermore, what is the reason to say that Laban wanted to kill my father and went down to Egypt, and Laban never turned to go down to Egypt! The closer reading is that the Aramean was Jacob. As if the text said, when my father was in Aram he was enslaved, a poor person without money.​
Neither the study of Philology nor, for that matter, the study of Torah died with the death of the Vilna Gaon. Recent scholarship has shed new light on the Tetragrammaton and, by doing so, raised new and as yet unanswered question. Feel free to dismiss it. That is your right. But blind appeal to sages of the past is, in my opinion, an abuse of their memory.
 
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Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
"Correct translation" of the tetragrammaton?! What sort of nonsense is that?

The tetragrammaton is a verbal paradox. Whatever its correct vocalization might be-- and that is surely not Jehovah, or Yahweh, or suchlike-- its translation is impossible. The word represents the root of the verb lihiyot (.ה.ו.ה) conjugated into all three tenses simultaneously, as an allusion to God's nature as eternal and infinite. There is no single word in any language that I am aware of, even Hebrew, that completely encompasses that idea, which is why the tetragrammaton is so structured.
That is one of the best answers I've read on the subject.
and it is no surprise than the Tetragrammaton is explicitly written or even pronounced by its letters 'Yod He Vav He'.

YHVH is referenced from the same verbal root for one of the Biblical names for the God of Israel, 'Ehye Asher Ehye' or I AM THAT I AM.
 
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Jayhawker Soule

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Premium Member
That is one of the best answers I've read on the subject.
and it is no surprise than that the Tetragrammaton is explicitly written or even pronounced by its letters 'Yod He Vav He'.

YHVH is referenced from the same verbal root of the God of Israel, 'Ehye Asher Ehye' or I AM THAT I AM.
Some agree, others do not, but you're welcome to your belief.

Out of curiosity - and, given your interest in archaeology - what are your views of Redford's
The 'Land of the Shasu' in the mountainous districts of Se'ir east of the Araba [the valley south of the Dead Sea] has an interesting consequence for one name in the mentioned lists from Soleb [northern Sudan] and Amarah [south of Cairo] -- 'Yhw (in) the land of the Shasu.' For half a century it has been generally admitted that we have here the tetragrammaton, the name of the Israelite god, 'Yahweh'; and if this be the case, as it undoubtedly is, the passage constitutes a most precious indication of the whereabouts during the late fifteenth century B.C. of an enclave revering this god.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Some agree, others do not, but you're welcome to your belief.
The reason it resonates with me, is that while there are several popular pronunciations of the Tetragrammaton (and while you did note the difference from pronunciation and translation), a great point is that the Tetragrammaton simply captures certain qualities. the Greek term itself, should be taken into account here- which is combined of Tetra (four) and Gramma (letter).

Out of curiosity - and, given your interest in archaeology - what are your views of Redford's

I think that various ancient ethnic groups have been speculated as being related or even equivalent to the Hebrews or Israel in the previous century in archaeology, the Hyksos or in this case the Shasu. although its safe to say we are dealing with Asiatics, perhaps even Semitic Asiatics involved in regional migrations, it can be tempting to try to link an ancient and Biblical nation of Israel to these various groups who appear in Egyptian documents or stelae. for example the movements of Bedouin-like people, perhaps the Shasu is attested by Egyptian border documents which monitored such movements. in a broader sense we can speculate that it attests to collective memories of a large scale migration, which were embodied in Biblical stories.
it's interesting to note that the Canaanite autochthonic population is the first contrast given to the wandering Shasu as precursors to the Israelites. I am curious as to what future studies in a linguistic pool of terms shared by people of the Southern Levant and perhaps the extended region in general would indicate.​
 
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Jayhawker Soule

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Premium Member
The reason it resonates with me, is that while there are several popular pronunciations of the Tetragrammaton (and while you did note the difference from pronunciation and translation), a great point is that the Tetragrammaton simply captures certain qualities.
Or, perhaps, has become imbued with certain qualities (as, by the way, has elohim) - all to our benefit.

L'Shalom
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yep. Those foolish Jews have been doing it wrong for millinnia. So glad that you came to set us straight. :D

Not only the Jews have been doing it wrong. Most professed "Christian" religions seek to hide God's name, even removing it from their translations of the Bible. How different from Jesus Christ, who taught us to pray to God in the Lord's prayer: "Hallowed be thy Name". (Matthew 6:9,10) On another occasion, Jesus prayed publicly: "Father, glorify your name." Therefore a voice came out of heaven: "I both glorified it and will glorify it again. (John 12:28)

 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
1. Why is God's "personal" name needed to praise him? If He knows your heart and your heart has the intent of directing worship towards him, then what does it matter what you call Him?

2. Let's say that using God is like using sir or man. Why is that bad? God is our King, after all.

3. Anyone who truly knows God must know His proper name....so you don't know Him then?

4. Jehovah isn't a translation. I don't know what it is, but is seems to be an attempt at pronouncing the tetragrammaton.

1. Why is God's personal name needed to praise him? God had his divine Name recorded thousands of times in the Bible. God's name is more than just a label. It identifies the only true God, and sets him apart from all the false gods being worshipped. Exodus 3:15 states Jehovah...has sent me to you. This is my name to time indefinite and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation."
Jehovah has linked his Name with his qualities, acts, and purposes. Jehovah has promised to sanctify (or hallow) his Name by accomplishing his will. (Ezekiel 36:23)
One very important reason for us to use God's name is stated at Romans 10:13:
"For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." (Joel 2:32)

2. Most self-respecting people would take offense at someone calling them 'man'. While 'sir' is a respectful title, an intimate friend would want you to call them by their name. Those who enjoy a close relationship with God use his name because God wants us to call upon his name.(Psalm 9:10)

3. God's name is Jehovah. Ask a member of a church what God's name is and you may get a variety of answers. Those knowing God will love and use his divine Name.

4. No one knows for sure how names were pronounced in ancient Hebrew, and to most people it makes no difference how the names "Jesus" or "Jeremiah" were pronounced in ancient times. We know clearly who Jesus and Jeremiah are today by their distinct names in English (or whatever language we speak.) Jehovah's name identifies him unmistakeably as the one true God. More important than how God's name is pronounced in our language is that we use his unique Name in worshipping him: "Give thanks to Jehovah, you people! Call upon his name. Make known among the nations his dealings. Make mention that his name is put on high. (Isaiah 12:4)


 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Not only the Jews have been doing it wrong. Most professed "Christian" religions seek to hide God's name, even removing it from their translations of the Bible. How different from Jesus Christ, who taught us to pray to God in the Lord's prayer: "Hallowed be thy Name". (Matthew 6:9,10) On another occasion, Jesus prayed publicly: "Father, glorify your name." Therefore a voice came out of heaven: "I both glorified it and will glorify it again. (John 12:28)

Unfortunately it was only a matter of time before a discussion of philology got polluted with vapid preaching. :facepalm:
 
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