The Son Of God Theory Explained.[Super Debate]

bhakthi · Oct 28, 2005

What Makes Jesus The Son Of God.

Before Lord Jesus was born, Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary to speak about His birth and told her like this, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the holy child to be born will be called the Son of God. Mathew;1:35

When Jesus came to be baptized by John the Baptist in Jordan, heaven opened and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove came down and stayed on Jesus and a voice was heard from heaven, This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleasedMark;1:10,11

Lord Jesus did not pop up like any other religious or political leader.The world was waiting for him.When his star appeard in the sky wise men came from the east looking for the newborn king of Israel.They knew this was extra ordinary child.Many kings and prophets spoke about his coming and they wanted his coming happen in their days.John the baptist once sent his disciples and asked Jesus, 'Are you he who is to come, or shall we look for another ?'" Luke;7:20 Martha confessed to Jesus saying, "Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, he who is coming into the world." John;11:27.When Philip met Lord Jesus he brought Nathanael to him saying, We have found him,of whom Moses in the law,and the prophets, wrote." John;1:45 Abraham rejoiced that he would see his day and he saw it and was glad.Moses wrote about him.David called him Lord. Isaiah saw his glory.John the baptist saw him and testified publicly that Jesus was the Son of God.

When Jesus was on the Mount with Peter James and John Elijah and Moses appeared to them and the same voice head at the time of baptism was heard from the cloud one more time saying, This is My beloved Son; listen to Him!.Mark ; 9:4-7

Jesus himself spoke these words, God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved.John;3:17

While Lord Jesus was ministering in Jerusalem once he spoke like this, For whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in the same way.John;5:19

No other man can make a claim like this.Lord Jesus said that he can do all things the Father[God] does No prophet, not even Moses or Elijah could ever say something like this.

This makes Jesus equal with God.

Another statement Jesus made shows that He is omnipresent like God.Lord Jesus said, Where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there among them." Mathew;18:20

Only God can be present in many different places at the same time.If Jesus was only a man he could not have made this statement.

Claiming to be the Son of God was the only reason the Jews found to hand Jesus over to Pilate. After Jesus was arrested The High Priest before the council asked him,

Are You then the Son of God?" So He said to them, "You rightly say that I am." Luke;22:70

When the Jews brought Jesus before the governor they accused him saying, "We have a law, and according to that law He must die, because He made Himself the Son of God." John;19:7

And Jesus did not deny the charge.

Witnessing the earthquake and the darkness and all that happened at the time of the crucifixion, the Roman centurion said,This was truly the Son of God. Luke;23:47

The Koran says Jesus is the Ruh or the Spirit of God.That makes him one with God. A mans spirit is not something apart from him.The spirit of a man is that man himself.Just like that Gods Spirit is one with Him.

Jesus was different from all other human beings for this reason because He came from God.It cannot be said about Adam that he was the the spirit of God.Adam was made out of dust.All other humans have descended from him and possess the Adamic nature.None of them can claim that he is the Spirit of God.Only Jesus was different.

The first chapter of the gospel of John says, In the beginning was the Word; and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.John;1:1-3

Before going to heaven Lord Jesus told his disciples,I am with you always even to the end of the age.Mathew ;28 .No man, how great or mighty, could ever say this before he leaves the world that he will be with his family or nation or property forever.Lord Jesus can be in heaven and on earth at the same time. Jesus Christ is Immanuel which means- God Is with us.

THE SON OF GOD THEORY [MORE]

You are my Son.Today I have begotten You.Psalm; 2 :7. This scripture, God speaks here, is about a Son,whom He has begotten.Threre are many who think,it is about King David,that God is speaking here,because David wrote this Psalm.It was Jesse,who begot David,not God.There is no reason to believe it is about David because,it doesn't make any difference in his life.David had a natural birth and he lived and died like any other Patriarch or Prophet.But like in many other Psalms[ 2,8,16,22,40,68,110 etc] David here, is prophetically speaking about,the Messiah.who is to be begotten of God.It is Jesus Christ who was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God, in the womb of a virgin, and later raised as God's first-born from the dead.

Again the scripture says; Unto us a child is born ,unto us a Son is given,His name shall be called..Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God.Isaiah;9:6.This child is the same as spoken by Isaiah Behold, the the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son ,and shall call His name Immanuel. Isaiah;7:14.Who is this child or son the scriptures talk about?How can a child born in the land of Israel be called Mighty God and Immanuel? Another scripture tells, But you Bethlehem,Ephratha,though you are little among the thousands of Judah ,yet out of you shall come forth,The One to be ruler in Israel. Whose goings forth have been from everlasting. Micah;5:2 Everyone agrees this is a Messianic scripture.We read in the gospel of John, In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.And all things were made through Him.And this is what Micah says His goings forth are from everlasting.The word became flesh and dwelt among usJohn;1:14.

All these prophetic words were fulfilled in Jesus Christ . He was born to a

virgin by the name of Mary, when she got conceived by the Holy Spirit. When He grew up,He became a powerful Prophet in Israel,and did miracles and signs no one else has ever done.And He spoke the words no one could ever speak.What is written in Isaiah 61 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me because He has anointed Mewas fulfilled through Him.

Another scripture says,For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,nor will you allow your Holy One to see corruption Psalm;16:10.It is clear that David who wrote this Psalm died and was buried,therefore saw corruption.But Jesus about whom this was written didn't see corruption,because when Jesus died, God raised Him from the dead, and seated Him at His right hand .This is what David speaks about in Psalm;110:1 The Lord said to my Lord Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your foot stool. David foresaw this event in the Holy Spirit and he calls Him Lord, even though He is his son, according to the flesh.

Deut 13:1 · Oct 28, 2005

bhakthi said:
What Makes Jesus NOT The Son Of God.

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Why_Jews_Dont_Believe_In_Jesus.asp

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.

3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.

4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

But first, some background: What exactly is the Messiah?

The word "Messiah" is an English rendering of the Hebrew word "Mashiach", which means "Anointed." It usually refers to a person initiated into God's service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3)

Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as "an anointed one" (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: "God forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the Lord's Messiah [Saul]..." (I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6)

Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)

Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed king as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.

[size=+1]1. JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES[/size]

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah."

Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.

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[size=+1]2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH[/size]

[size=+1]A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET[/size]

The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2)

Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus was not a prophet; he appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

[size=+1]B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID [/size]

According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (1) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David. (2)

[size=+1]C. TORAH OBSERVANCE[/size]

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

____________________

[size=+1]3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS[/size]

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

[size=+1]A. VIRGIN BIRTH [/size]

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

[size=+1]B. SUFFERING SERVANT [/size]

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the "Servant of God" (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel. When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the Jewish people being "bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter" at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44). Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.

For further reading, go to: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-ss.html

______________________

[size=+1]4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION[/size]

Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God's true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, there is still no verification that he is a genuine prophet. Miracles do not prove anything. All they show -- assuming they are genuine -- is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Of the thousands of religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):

The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.

What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)

Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

Searcher of Light · Oct 28, 2005

[size=+1][/size]

[size=+1]1. JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES[/size]

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah."

Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.

Binyamin, I have never understood why the Jewish religion doesn't view the Third Temple or the gathering of all Jews back to Israel on a spiritual or metaphysical level. Why must it be physically rebuilt or gathered? Isn't the observance of the Law what makes a Jew a Jew and not land? (I do however understand the need for a Temple. As it stands, the Jewish religion of today isnt observing the entire Law because the Temple doesnt exist)

Malus 12:9 · Oct 28, 2005

The expression "Son of God", is an analogical term. It indicates origin, a close association, or identification. Not necessarily the direct son of God.

No other man can make a claim like this

Mind you, many of the ones that do are locked up in a mental asylum.

No other man can make a claim like this.Lord Jesus said that he can do all things the Father[God] does No prophet, not even Moses or Elijah could ever say something like this.

Why not? They have mouths; they can speak; if they chose to speak these words, than they
shall do so.
[font=&quot][/font]

Job 1:16, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

Muhammad, Islam founder, misunderstood what the term "Son of God" meant with respect to Christianity. He thought of it only in terms of sexual reproduction, i.e. that God fathered a child through sexual intercourse with Mary. Therefore he spoke out against it. Islams will ask rhetorical questions such as, "Wouldn't God know the last hour of Judgment?" Or, "If Jesus were God, why did He say, "the Father is greater than I"?[font=&quot]"[/font]

almifkhar · Oct 29, 2005

buddha was also said to be born from an immuclate conception. so if this is true, does that mean that there were two sons of god?

Dayv · Oct 29, 2005

I've always been curious about the story of jesus' consception. If it was only mary, by herself, off in the desert, how do we know this is what actually happened, angel and that jazz? Couldn't mary have maybe...made it up as to avoid, perhaps, getting stoned to death? If you faced getting beaten with rocks, it'd at least be worth a try.

michel · Oct 29, 2005

Dayv said:
I've always been curious about the story of jesus' consception. If it was only mary, by herself, off in the desert, how do we know this is what actually happened, angel and that jazz? Couldn't mary have maybe...made it up as to avoid, perhaps, getting stoned to death? If you faced getting beaten with rocks, it'd at least be worth a try.

Nah - it's just a misconception on your part.

Malus 12:9 · Oct 29, 2005

The Bible points many references to "Son of God." If we look at Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

If we are to take all references together, all men are sons of God, but in the case of
Jesus, he was the son; the meaning the most unique of son of all.The Hebrew phrase Benei Elohim, often translated as "The Sons of God", describes angels, demigods or immensely powerful human beings.

The term "Son of God" refers not to procreation, but to a special relationship that Jesus has with God the Father.

michel · Oct 29, 2005

Malus 12:9 said:
The Bible points many references to "Son of God." If we look at Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

If we are to take all references together, all men are sons of God, but in the case of
Jesus, he was the son; the meaning the most unique of son of all.The Hebrew phrase Benei Elohim, often translated as "The Sons of God", describes angels, demigods or immensely powerful human beings.

The term "Son of God" refers not to procreation, but to a special relationship that Jesus has with God the Father.

Jesus is "the only begotten son of God "; that is the difference, Malus.

Malus 12:9 · Oct 29, 2005

Only in Christian Beliefs MICH

bhakthi · Oct 29, 2005

Why didn't the Jews believe in Jesus ? "Even though He had performed so many signs in their presence, they did not believe in Him. But this was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet, who said: Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? This is why they were unable to believe, because Isaiah also said: He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they would not see with their eyes or understand with their hearts, and be converted, and I would heal them. Isaiah said these things because he saw His glory and spoke about Him."John;12:37-41
bhakthi

Katzpur · Oct 29, 2005

michel said:
Jesus is "the only begotten son of God "; that is the difference, Malus.

I think you're right, Michael. There is a difference between "sons of God," (which applies to all of God's children, i.e. us!) and "the only begotten Son of God" (which refers specifically to Jesus). In the scriptures, the word "Son" is always capitalized when it is referring to Jesus. Conversely, it is never capitalized when it is speaking of the rest of us.

Popeyesays · Oct 29, 2005

Jesus referred to Himself as the "Son of Masn" far more than He ever referred to Himself as the "Son of God"

Moses was "He Who Spoke with God", Muhammed was the "Friend of God", Jesus is referred to often by Islamand the Baha`i Faith as "The Spirit of God".

Titles disclose the uniqueness of one particular "Apostle" or "Manifestation" of God. One should think also about Their Unity of presence as well.

In my belief all speak of being the "First and the Last", the "alpha and omega". And They spoke the truth.

I see Them all as one and the same LIght, shining forth from different Lamps, is not the Light the obect of love and the source of warmth?

Regards,
Scott

Deut 13:1 · Oct 29, 2005

Searcher of Light said:
Binyamin, I have never understood why the Jewish religion doesn't view the Third Temple or the gathering of all Jews back to Israel on a spiritual or metaphysical level. Why must it be physically rebuilt or gathered? Isn't the observance of the Law what makes a Jew a Jew and not land? (I do however understand the need for a Temple. As it stands, the Jewish religion of today isnt observing the entire Law because the Temple doesnt exist)

Why must it be a spiritual or metaphysical level? What proof makes you think this was meant to be in a spiritual or metaphysical level? Keep in mind, anything NT that states this should be spiritual or metaphysical, I'll ignore. There's a reason when we bury people we leave the casket un-locked, we believe the bones of the Jews will tunnel their way underground until they reach Israel.

Also, what do you think the Amidah is?

Deut 13:1 · Oct 29, 2005

Malus 12:9 said:
The Bible points many references to "Son of God." If we look at Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

If we are to take all references together, all men are sons of God, but in the case of
Jesus, he was the son; the meaning the most unique of son of all.The Hebrew phrase Benei Elohim, often translated as "The Sons of God", describes angels, demigods or immensely powerful human beings.

The term "Son of God" refers not to procreation, but to a special relationship that Jesus has with God the Father.

Can you do me a favor? Can you look to Exodus 4:16 and post your translation?

fromthe heart · Oct 29, 2005

Malus 12:9 said:
The expression "Son of God", is an analogical term. It indicates origin, a close association, or identification. Not necessarily the direct son of God.

He thought of it only in terms of sexual reproduction, i.e. that God fathered a child through sexual intercourse with Mary. Therefore he spoke out against it. Islams will ask rhetorical questions such as, "Wouldn't God know the last hour of Judgment?" Or, "If Jesus were God, why did He say, "the Father is greater than I"?[font=&quot]"[/font]

Perhaps you are just not realizing the scriptures. Jesus was concieved by devine intervention through the Virgin Mary. Not through a sexual way but a Holy way. The seed was planted in her womb in a manner that did not defile her virginity. This was God born as man in human terms. Jesus is therefore the DIRECT son of God! Since the blood that helped Him form inside His Holy Mother's womb was that of the seed of the lineage of Mary this directly places His lineage with Hers. He knew before the earth was formed this day would come...being of a human birth this made Him in a lesser form than the Holiest as is God the great I AM...therefore He called God His Father which with the Holy Ghost links to the trinity of the 3 that are one.

Deut 13:1 · Oct 29, 2005

bhakthi said:
Why didn't the Jews believe in Jesus ? "Even though He had performed so many signs in their presence, they did not believe in Him. But this was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet, who said: Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? This is why they were unable to believe, because Isaiah also said: He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they would not see with their eyes or understand with their hearts, and be converted, and I would heal them. Isaiah said these things because he saw His glory and spoke about Him."John;12:37-41
bhakthi

Why don't we term it a "respectful disagreement" rather than being blinded? It seems to me that terming people "blinded" and having a "hardened heart" is more of an excuse for the inability to convince them (for about 2,000 years). But when you cast it as you do, it is suddenly the Jew who is the problem here. It is not the Christian failure to convince Jews that's the problem, and it's not the un-convincing idea (of Yoshkua) that is the problem. Rather, the problem is the hardened heart from the blinded Jew.

The logic kind of reminds me of leftists, who were pissed about losing the election. It's not that their candidate was a slimy snake with no stance on issues, and it's not that they failed to convince the American people of their defeatist welfare-state agenda, but it's that the people in the red states are some sort of dumb rednecks, impossible to reason with.

That's how leftists think. And when you advance the "blinding" Jew idea, you are doing exactly that. Jews feel about such perception of them much like you feel about the the leftist perception of you. Think about it. If Christians really love Jews as much as they profess, patronizing them isn't very indicative of that.

Deut 13:1 · Oct 29, 2005

Katzpur said:
I think you're right, Michael. There is a difference between "sons of God," (which applies to all of God's children, i.e. us!) and "the only begotten Son of God" (which refers specifically to Jesus). In the scriptures, the word "Son" is always capitalized when it is referring to Jesus. Conversely, it is never capitalized when it is speaking of the rest of us.

Hebrew doesn't have capital letters.

Searcher of Light · Oct 29, 2005

Why must it be a spiritual or metaphysical level? What proof makes you think this was meant to be in a spiritual or metaphysical level? Keep in mind, anything NT that states this should be spiritual or metaphysical, I'll ignore. There's a reason when we bury people we leave the casket un-locked, we believe the bones of the Jews will tunnel their way underground until they reach Israel.

An interesting tradition there.

As for the proof, proof is relative and will not sway either of us. I read it on a spiritual level because to me, it makes the most logical sense. Although, I am reading through the eyes of a Christian and that view point will differ from your own. The nation of Israel, as the prophets spoke of concerning the Messiah, always seemed so idyllic. The only way a physical nation could be ideal is if God violated free will. Free will is what allows humanity to choose paths in life. Because of this no physical nation can be ideal. The writings of the prophets shows us this much. The kingdome of Israel was never perfect. However, a spiritual nation is not within the bounds of the physical. If a person is a member of a spiritual kingdom than the free will choices of others cannot violate that kingdom. Only the member can violate the kingdom they are in and thus cut themselves out of this kingdom. In this sense, a Jewish person would always be in the land of Israel and have a Temple unless they chose otherwise. Hasnt this been the sense of the Jewish religion before the country of Israel was re-established and opened its borders?

Again, this of course is from a Christian view and understanding.

As for the concept of the virgin birth. I do believe it happened; however, virgin births are not a one time in history event. I have read about a very rare condition that allows a woman to become pregnant through hermaphoditic internal methods. In the animal world, virgin births are not that uncommon. There has been several virgin births throughout history because of this condition. Who is to say that God didnt use something naturally present to carry out His will though?

Deut 13:1 · Oct 29, 2005

Searcher of Light said:
An interesting tradition there.

okay.

Searcher of Light said:
As for the proof, proof is relative and will not sway either of us. I read it on a spiritual level because to me, it makes the most logical sense. Although, I am reading through the eyes of a Christian and that view point will differ from your own. The nation of Israel, as the prophets spoke of concerning the Messiah, always seemed so idyllic. The only way a physical nation could be ideal is if God violated free will. Free will is what allows humanity to choose paths in life. Because of this no physical nation can be ideal. The writings of the prophets shows us this much. The kingdome of Israel was never perfect. However, a spiritual nation is not within the bounds of the physical. If a person is a member of a spiritual kingdom than the free will choices of others cannot violate that kingdom. Only the member can violate the kingdom they are in and thus cut themselves out of this kingdom. In this sense, a Jewish person would always be in the land of Israel and have a Temple unless they chose otherwise. Hasnt this been the sense of the Jewish religion before the country of Israel was re-established and opened its borders?

Again, this of course is from a Christian view and understanding.

How would Hashem violate free-will? When you're dead...you're dead. The bones themselve will tunnel to the holy land. Also, do you believe nature to be out of the control of G-d? Prophets were torah observant Jews who would go around and punish the Jews for knowingly committing sins. As a non-Jew you're free to interpret the Jewish texts however you want, as a Jew, I can't afford to play with lose interpretations of what the prophets have to say.

Searcher of Light said:
As for the concept of the virgin birth. I do believe it happened; however, virgin births are not a one time in history event. I have read about a very rare condition that allows a woman to become pregnant through hermaphoditic internal methods. In the animal world, virgin births are not that uncommon. There has been several virgin births throughout history because of this condition. Who is to say that God didnt use something naturally present to carry out His will though?

A virgin birth sort of contradicts Judaism. Duet 14.1

But yea, feel free to believe what you want.

The Son Of God Theory Explained.[Super Debate]

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