Storm & NK: Ritual Magic(k)

Storm said:

Magic is the art and science of deliberately applying consciousness to shape energy and thus affect the world. I emphasize "deliberately" because we do this subconsciously all the time. The placebo effect is a prime example of subconscious magic.

Now, there are two common methods of doing this: ritual "magick" and "direct" aka energy shaping.

Click to expand...

Magick to me doesnt have to be deliberate, because like you said, we do it subconsciously too. But, there are also other types of magick, like the sun rise, or the birth or death of someone. Life and Death itself is magick. I guess in some ways, magick to me is /almost/ synonymous with the energy that permeates the Universe. I would call working with that energy/magick "spellcasting" or rit work.

Storm said:

May I ask what you mean by restrictions? Are you referring to safety/ ethical guidelines such as "no love spells," or recommending he start with ritual methods?

Click to expand...

Restrictions are the bindings that practitioners place on themselves so that her safety can be maintained, for as you know, magick can be dangerous is precautions are not taken first and foremost.

Both. The safety/ethical guidelines are important, IMO, and everyone who practices magick should at least know them even if they dont practice them. Ritual methods, like ritual practices, are also good places to start because the circle itself is a safety measure so that nothing comes in or out unless the caster wants it to. Not to mention that the specific nature of ritual allows noobs to know whats going on, where to go next, and what is doing what.

Storm said:

If the latter, please elaborate on your stance. I may speak with confidence, but I do not pretend to be the final authority, and if Antibush chooses to begin a magical practice, he should do so with as much information as possible.

(And I may want a One On One debate, if you're willing. )

Click to expand...

Maybe I should explain that there is a difference (to me) from ritual and straight magick. Ritual magick is casting involving a circle, and straight magick doesnt have anything other than the person, no circle. What is your definition of energy shaping, btw?

Information is great, and the more he knows, the better prepared he is. However, I know that humans, and esp beginners, will look at the more experienced practitioners and tell them to something off before they go and do stuff by themselves. If he is going to do things on his own, he should be warned, but we shouldnt expect beginners to heed our advice. Lol trial by burning to the ground.

Nisou Kitsune said:

Magick to me doesnt have to be deliberate, because like you said, we do it subconsciously too. But, there are also other types of magick, like the sun rise, or the birth or death of someone. Life and Death itself is magick. I guess in some ways, magick to me is /almost/ synonymous with the energy that permeates the Universe. I would call working with that energy/magick "spellcasting" or rit work.

Click to expand...

OK, I agree with most of that. It's semantics, but just to be clear, why don't we agree to call it witchcraft?

Restrictions are the bindings that practitioners place on themselves so that her safety can be maintained, for as you know, magick can be dangerous is precautions are not taken first and foremost.

Click to expand...

Agreed. To kick off the debate, my most important restriction is to use rituals for worship only, and energy work for magic.

Both. The safety/ethical guidelines are important, IMO, and everyone who practices magick should at least know them even if they dont practice them. Ritual methods, like ritual practices, are also good places to start because the circle itself is a safety measure so that nothing comes in or out unless the caster wants it to. Not to mention that the specific nature of ritual allows noobs to know whats going on, where to go next, and what is doing what.

Click to expand...

And here we diverge. In my view, "spells" which rely on ritual are so dangerously unpredictable that they're best avoided completely.

This is because, in the end, ALL witchcraft is energy shaping. The only difference is that the ritual stuff triggers the subconscious into doing it without guidance. Likeliest outcome is total failure, and while the remaining fraction MIGHT have the intended result, it's just as liable to backfire horribly.

Maybe I should explain that there is a difference (to me) from ritual and straight magick. Ritual magick is casting involving a circle, and straight magick doesnt have anything other than the person, no circle. What is your definition of energy shaping, btw?

Click to expand...

OK. To me ritual magic usually includes circles, may be solitary or communal, and includes copious symbolism intended to trigger the subconscious mind's innate ability to shape the energy or summon an Other capable of doing so. I disapprove of this because the subconscious mind is by definition unknown and uncontrolled.

Energy work, in contrast, consciously taps and shapes the forces in question. Granted, it's much more difficult, and therefore carries dangers of its own, but I look at that as ultimately a good thing. If you go too far, the side effects will slow you down or stop you altogether.

Compare that to ritual invocation of Others, for instance. In the end, they do what they want, and whether that's good or bad for the witch is so unpredictable that "crapshoot" falls short! It's more like Russian Roulette.

Storm said:

Agreed. To kick off the debate, my most important restriction is to use rituals for worship only, and energy work for magic.

Click to expand...

Worship, in strict magick? I wasnt aware we were involving the Others. Invoking the Others is an entirely different game, and adds dimensions that differ than straight magick. If I were teaching a student magick, the most important restriction would be moral restrictions - not controlling others. I preform magick in ritual on a regular basis, with or without the presence of Gods. Only once has one of my spells backfired, and even then it still did as it was supposed to.

Storm said:

And here we diverge. In my view, "spells" which rely on ritual are so dangerously unpredictable that they're best avoided completely.

This is because, in the end, ALL witchcraft is energy shaping. The only difference is that the ritual stuff triggers the subconscious into doing it without guidance. Likeliest outcome is total failure, and while the remaining fraction MIGHT have the intended result, it's just as liable to backfire horribly.

Click to expand...

Spells arent as unpredictable as you make them seem, and not entirely as dangerous as you say either. Spells are usually simple and dont have as much of a change to completely backfire. The problems come when you complicate them and turn them into full blown, solitary rituals with several parts. Even then, you have more of a chance that the parts will come to pass rather than blowing up in your face.

That is, unless you are working on the other side of the circle, then the rules change (again). Every new element adds a different dimension, and those with a lack of experience cannot handle multiple facets. Heck, sometimes Elders can't handle them.

Storm said:

OK. To me ritual magic usually includes circles, may be solitary or communal, and includes copious symbolism intended to trigger the subconscious mind's innate ability to shape the energy or summon an Other capable of doing so. I disapprove of this because the subconscious mind is by definition unknown and uncontrolled.

Click to expand...

You dont have to summon an Other to help shape energy/magick. Again, experience comes into play. Others can be dangerous, and you dont always know what you are getting when you call something. Most of the time, releasing an Other is much, much harder than calling them, esp when they do not want to leave. I would much rather deal with my subconscious than an Other. LOL

Storm said:

Energy work, in contrast, consciously taps and shapes the forces in question. Granted, it's much more difficult, and therefore carries dangers of its own, but I look at that as ultimately a good thing. If you go too far, the side effects will slow you down or stop you altogether.

Compare that to ritual invocation of Others, for instance. In the end, they do what they want, and whether that's good or bad for the witch is so unpredictable that "crapshoot" falls short! It's more like Russian Roulette.

Click to expand...

Hey, Russian Roulette is fun! Lol

Seriously, dealing with the Others is a dicey situation. I personally dont completely trust them, and sometimes that has protected me. They are beings, just like any other being, except they live on a different plane of existence and follow different rules. Very faery like, IMO. Gods, demons, entities that travel on, to, through this world, they all have different ways than us, and knowing that is something that youngsters should know.

Now, not the details. And that is another thing, coming out and being open is a big issue for me. Talking about the deeper workings of this world (like we are talking about magick) isnt something that new people should know. Eventually they will learn it, but not up front.

Nisou Kitsune said:

Talking about the deeper workings of this world (like we are talking about magick) isnt something that new people should know.

Click to expand...

Would you prefer to move to PM, then?

Lol no, we can continue here.