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Who was Pharaoh?

Merlin

Active Member
Deut. 10:19 said:
This is Merlin's source. Seriously - just go to the parent site www.greatdreams.com. So much for the pretense of serious research or serious discusion. :rolleyes:
I have now looked at this parent web site, which had not seen before today. It is certainly eclectic.

I still say that the first web site that came under my search on Akhenaten and Moses contains enough references to serious academic study to keep people who are interested busy. What this parent web site is about, I have no idea. But the sub page has good links.
 

Malus 12:9

Temporarily Deactive.
Is the guy in that pic supposed to be Merlin the wizard or Moses? :areyoucra

I see, Moses saw the ten commandments through visions through a crystal
ball :woohoo:
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Merlin said:
I have now looked at this parent web site, which had not seen before today.
That doesn't surprise me at all. You have demonstrated little interest in, or capacity for, a serious study of the matter under discussion. Instead, we get pretention, fringe speculation, and evasion as you wallow in confirmation bias. Those who unwittingly take you seriously would do well to spend that time reading a serious book on archaeology - something that I seriously doubt you've ever attempted.
 

Merlin

Active Member
Deut. 10:19 said:
This is Merlin's source.Seriously - just go to the parent site www.greatdreams.com. So much for the pretense of serious research or serious discusion. :rolleyes:
You are quite an interesting study in yourself. Having looked through your posts, you revel in being unpleasant and often misrepresenting what people say. You must be quite a sad person. I am very sorry for that.

In this case, it was perfectly obvious to anybody that I was trying to give you a quick list. As it happens, I hadn't seen the parent web site until now. It is certainly eclectic. But I still recommend either this sub page I gave, or indeed many others that come up under a general search. There is a huge amount has been written about this subject.

Not that the subject is a particularly big deal anyway.
 

Merlin

Active Member
Deut. 10:19 said:
That doesn't surprise me at all. You have demonstrated little interest in, or capacity for, a serious study of the matter under discussion. Instead, we get pretention, fringe speculation, and evasion as you wallow in confirmation bias. Those who unwittingly take you seriously would do well to spend that time reading a serious book on archaeology - something that I seriously doubt you've ever attempted.
May God give you some peace
 

Merlin

Active Member
Malus 12:9 said:
Then why continue to debate it?
Actually, I don't think we are debating it. We are rather foolishly continuing to respond to this unhappy soul who has nothing positive ever to contribute.
 

Merlin

Active Member
Malus 12:9 said:
This is actually a useful starting reference, probably better than the one I tripped over first.

I had to search again, because it is so many years since I visited the subject. I had forgotten Freud, off your reference:-

"In the 1930s, in his book Moses and Monotheism, Freud drew attention to remarkable similarities between Atenism and the religion of the ancient Israelites as described in the Bible"
 

Kowalski

Active Member
Bennettresearch said:
Hi Kowalski,

Tsk Tsk. I'll gladly listen to an answer to the question but coming in so hostile is very unbecoming. Thutmoses III comes into the picture by reason of dating and not because of any discredit to him. A truly great king. Since the Temple is dated by scholars at around 960 BCE, and the Bible dates it at 1004 BCE, both of these dates line up with Thutmoses's reign. Actually, the date 960 BCE lines up more to the end of has reign. This is an observation and is given as a possibility. The question is about why the writers of the story of Moses didn't name this Pharaoh for us.
My guess is, is that the story was constructed at a later time, some scholars, (Thompson) think as late as the Macabees, so perhaps with out much knowledge of Egyptian Kings, they used a generic term. Sorry, was I hostile, been a difficult week.

K
 

Merlin

Active Member
Malus 12:9 said:
Is the guy in that pic supposed to be Merlin the wizard or Moses? :areyoucra

I see, Moses saw the ten commandments through visions through a crystal
ball :woohoo:
Don't ask me me, it is the first time I have seen the site.
 

Malus 12:9

Temporarily Deactive.
I just reread the thread, and thought I would ask:

There are many who believe that Moses was actually Pharaoh Akhenaten. If not he, then a very close person to him.
Who are these many?

Exodus 6:13 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, and gave them a charge unto the children of Israel, and unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, to bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt.
So, was the "LORD" speaking to both Moses and Pharoah at the same time, giving them both a charge to themself? :biglaugh:
 

Kowalski

Active Member
Bennettresearch said:
OK K,

Your answer is that because it is purely myth they didn't name the Pharaoh because there never was a real Pharaoh to name. I'll consider this an answer.

This is where we are at so far,

1. The writers of the story didn't consider it to be important.

2. Moses was actually a disciple of Akhenaten.

3. The writers of the story had no idea who the Pharaoh was so they didn't name him.

4. The writers didn't like the similarity of the name Thutmose and Moses so they didn't name the Pharaoh.

5. The writers of the story of Moses didn't name the Pharaoh because there never was an actual Pharaoh to name.
Yes, good synopsis, taking point 1, I would have to say that if a King of Egypt supposedly drowned, I would of thought that recording his name would of been important, so again, there was no King of Egypt presiding over the Exodus. After all, the Bible names Shishak of Egypt who sacked Jerusalem, and it is thought that this is the Egyptian Kind, Shoshenk who recorded his campaigns at Karnak.

2) I have seen nothing which in any way provides any substance to this idea, Ifeel it is the fantsasy of writers with an eye on sales.

3) I agree

4) Thuthmosis is a Greek corruption of Egyptian name, ' Dheuty-mes, ie born of the God Thoth. Moses, I'm not sure if this is a true Aramiac name or not, but its resemblence to Mosis (mes), is incorrect, they only sound the same in English.

5) This is the correct view in my opinion.

Cheers

K
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Parenthetically ...

Bennettresearch said:
That's all very nice Deut.

If Dennis likes the date of 960 BCE as the start of the Temple, fine. This doesn't address the question here. Why isn't Pharaoh named in the OT? If you want to double check the chronology of the Kings that I stated, go ahead. You will find that the OT dates the start of the Temple at 1004 BCE.
After a rather lengthy and interesting discussion, the Catholic Encyclopaedia notes:

We conclude then that the Temple was built about 969. The secession of the Ten Tribes took place about 937. The fall of Samaria in 722 or 721, and the destruction of Jerusalem 536 B. C.

- see Biblical Chronology
Meanwhile, the Jewish Encyclopaedia notes briefly:

Third king of all Israel; reigned from about 971 to 931 B.C ; second son of David and Bath-sheba (II Sam. xii. 23-25). He was called Jedidiah (= "beloved of Yhwh") by Nathan the prophet, the Chronicler (I Chron. xxii. 9) assuming that David was told by Yhwh that his son's name should be Solomon (="peaceful"). These two names are predictive of the character of his reign, which was both highly favored and peaceful.

- see Solomon
I can only assume that you're employing a nonstandard chronology or, perhaps more likely, you've confused the reign of David with the building of the Temple.

Bennettresearch said:
So let's not hassle about 40 years or so, or whether there is any evidence that it happened at all, let's discuss why Pharaoh isn't named in the account of Exodus.
One would think that "whether there is any evidence that it happened at all" could be relevant, but apparently you disagree - as is your right.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Not that I know anything about this man:

From:-http://allanturner.com/pharaoh.html

The Bible nowhere mentions the name of the pharaoh of the Exodus, but Bible students have always been curious as to who he was. No doubt, some Christians will be wary of trying to discover something the Bible has not clearly revealed; but in studying this question one can come away with his faith increased in the Bible as the unerring word of God. Although the Bible does not specifically name the pharaoh of the Exodus, enough data is supplied for us to be relatively sure who he was.
Admittedly, there are two schools of thought concerning the date of the Exodus (i.e., the early date and late date theories). Proponents of the late date theory (1290 B.C.) are clearly in the majority, but they reject clear Biblical statements with reference to the date of the Exodus. Therefore their arguments in favor of a particular pharaoh will not be considered in this article.

In I Kings 6:1 the Scriptures say: "And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month of Zif, which is the second month that he began to build the house of the Lord." One can readily see that the times for both the Exodus and the beginning of the Temple have been specifically stated in God's Word. Scholars have identified the fourth year of Solomon's reign as 966 B.C. (Gleason, A Survey of Old Testamsnt Introduction, 1974, p. 223). Using this 966 B.C. date, we find that the Exodus took place in 1445 B.C. Now, if this information is correct, the Exodus occurred in the third year of the reign of the pharaoh Amenhotep II.

Before concluding that Amenhotep II was, indeed, the pharaoh of the Exodus, we will need to study further other evidence that can be presented. For instance, when comparing Exodus 7:7 with Acts 7:23, we learn that Moses was in Midian approximately forty years. Assuming the pharaohs mentioned in Exodus 1:8, 22 and 2:23 are all the same person, he would have had to reign for over forty years. Amenhotep's predecessor, Thutmose III, is the only pharaoh within the time specified in I Kings 6:1 who reigned long enough (54 years) to have been on the throne at the time of Moses' flight and to die shortly before his return to Egypt. This would make Thutmose III the pharaoh of the Oppression and Amenhotep II the pharaoh of the Exodus.

History tells us that for several years after 1445 B.C. Amenhotep II was unable to carry out any invasions or extensive military operations. This would seem like very strange behavior for a pharaoh who hoped to equal his father's record of no less than seventeen military campaigns in nineteen years. But this is exactly what one would expect from a pharaoh who had lost almost all his cavalry, chariotry, and army at the Red Sea (Exodus 14:23, 27-30).

Furthermore, we learn from the Dream Stela of Thutmose IV, son of Amenhotep II, that he was not the legitimate successor to the throne (J.B. Pritchard (ed.), Ancient Near-Eastern Texts, p. 449). This means that Thutmose IV was not the firstborn son, who would have been the legitimate heir. The firstborn son of Amenhotep II had evidently died prior to taking the throne of Egypt. This would agree with Exodus 12:29 which says the pharaoh's first-born son was killed during the Passover.

If the Exodus did take place in 1445 B.C., forty years of wilderness wandering would bring us to 1405 B.C. for the destruction of Jericho. Interestingly enough, John Garstang, who excavated the site of ancient Jericho (city "D" in his survey), came to the conclusion that the destruction of the city took place around 1400 B.C. (Garstang, The Story of Jericho, 1948, p. 122). He also concluded that the walls of the city toppled outward, which would compare favorably with Joshua 6:20.

Scholars have been fascinated by a revolutionary religious doctrine which developed shortly after 1445 B.C. that threatened to sweep away the theological dogmas of centuries. These scholars have credited Amenhotep IV, great grandson of Amenhotep II, with founding the religious concept of Monotheism (the idea that there is only one God). The cult of Aton set forth this idea to the Egyptian people and scholars have mistakenly credited this idea to the Egyptians. But it does not seem unusual to me that a people who had been so influenced by the one God of Moses would try to worship the God that had so convincingly defeated their gods. A continually increasing body of evidence indicates that this cult of Aton had its beginning in the reign of Thutmose IV, son of Amenhotep II, pharaoh of the Exodus.

Although the final verdict is not yet in, we can be reasonably sure that Amenhotep II was the pharaoh of the Exodus.
 
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