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Grounds for Divorce
- Thread starter Draka
- Start date
blackout
Violet.
)
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Hmm. Should we feel sorry for those who claim to be miserable but also claim there's nothing they can do about it?
Galatians 5:22, 23 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Phillipians 4:12 -I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.
Psalm 131:2 - But I have calmed and quieted myself, I am like a weaned child with its mother; like a weaned child I am content.
Your implication is that those who choose to honor their marriage vows in spite of difficult dynamics, frustrations, personality clashes, different goals, lack of good communication skills, etc. are doing so out of some sort of self righteousness or even pride.
Some people take vows very seriously - and I believe it's judgmental to assume that this is because they are self righteous, or naive, or delusional, or fearful to leave, or as you put it, "living in an ivory tower."
"I, (name), take you (name), to be my (wife/husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish; from this day forward until death do us part."
My parents have a very difficult marriage - one that has lasted over 50 years. My mother is bipolar, and on top of that had a miserable childhood which has left her with, shall we say "issues" that she has never addressed. My father is an only child who was spoiled to pieces during his idyllic childhood. They are both firstborns and very headstrong and determined.
I think that last trait I mentioned is probably one reason why they are still married in spite of their almost continual clash of wills.
That being said, they are both people with many strengths and assets. They are both committed to each other totally, in spite of their mismatched personalities. Many times over the years they've gotten to the very brink of divorce, or at the least, separation. But - together they've chosen to stay married.
They fiercely love each other now - but it would be safe to say that at some points in their marriage, they were staying together not out of a feeling of love, but simply out of moral conviction.
Now that they are in their seventies, and both have experienced serious blows to their health, and pushed their way past their differences, I see them sharing a level of love, commitment, and tenderness that is beautiful and profound. It took them both a long time to get to this point, and there were times that both of them frustrated ME with their incessant bickering and frustrating dynamics, but who am I to judge their motives and choices?
In their old age, both of them (separately) have told me that they simply cannot imagine their life without the other - that in spite of their years of struggling to have peace between them, they have come to appreciate and cherish each other and all they have together. They've also expressed their regret and sorrow that they were not able to find this joy earlier in their lives together.
Their journey has not been one of pride or prison - it's been one of commitment and determination - and faith.
Last edited:
blackout
Violet.
Feel sorry for them, I don't know,
give them a hand up,
is nice.
Many people just need a hand up.
Or even just a hand
getting to a hand up.
Patience is required in certain situations as well.
It can take time rearranging things.
I feel as if that was a personal slight at me.
Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't,
but it's ok.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
It's not a personal slight to you. I'm asking a legitimate question - should we feel sorry for people whose choices have landed them in an unhappy situation and who are now miserable?
When I said, "We all make our own beds" I didn't mean that those who choose to stay in the bed they made are doing so out of spiritual pride or some idyllic ivory tower mentality, but that's the twist you put on it, and then you said we shouldn't feel sorry for them because of those attitudes. That's why I asked if we should feel sorry for those claiming to be miserable but also claiming they can't do anything about being miserable.
For the record, I DO feel empathy for people who feel stuck and frustrated and sad, in spite of the fact that often they feel that way because of choices they've made and continue to make. It's sad that they are unhappy, feel trapped, unfulfilled, etc. I encourage them to make changes in either their life or their attitude in order to find peace and joy.
Apparently while you were responding, I was editing my post to include the example of my parents' 50 year marriage, which has been full of frustration, anger, miscommunication, "stand offs," and emotional baggage. Please read that section of my post and perhaps that will clarify my point.
A person who has an accident which leaves them with a permanent disability still has the choice to either become bitter and angry and emotionally frustrated for the rest of their life, or they can choose to push through that frustration and anger and find peace and regain their joy. It's a challenge, and we wouldn't blame them for being frustrated or angry, but even so, their life would be better if they were able to overcome those negative emotions and live life positively and joyfully in spite of their limitations, right? I would be empathetic for them regardless of their attitude - but I would definitely find a positive, joyful attitude much more admirable. I wouldn't consider it to be self righteous.
blackout
Violet.
Sometimes the term "feeling sorry for" someone
implies pity.
I'm not big on pity.
Empathy though, is a thing I often feel.
And yes, I do empathize with those who are stuck in bad situations
that are very difficult to get out of, or remedy--
even if their own past actions largely landed them there.
Most of us learn by living, and making mistakes.
So there you go.
Yes, personal inner peace and empowerment is vital
no matter where you live
or who you live with.
But inner strength, endurance, resolve and personal peace alone
will rarely change one's actual surrounding circumstances.
These things, for example, will not sell my house,
or cause the bank to let me just step out of my mortgage contract,
and go on my merry joyful way.
So I keep busy and personally productive
while I'm stuck here,
making the most of my personal gifts
and limited resources,
increasing them bit by bit,
(despite almost a total lack of sleep)
so at least when I get out of this mess
I'll be ready to make the most of my freedom.
I don't LIVE angry, in case you care to know,
but certain THINGS definately do make me angry.
I'm going downstairs now,
to give my daughter a music lesson.
Those things make me happy.
I know none of this probably matters to anyone.
Not really.
But I write here mostly for mySelf. so.
It's good for me.
I do what I can.
Have a joyful day.
implies pity.
I'm not big on pity.
Empathy though, is a thing I often feel.
And yes, I do empathize with those who are stuck in bad situations
that are very difficult to get out of, or remedy--
even if their own past actions largely landed them there.
Most of us learn by living, and making mistakes.
So there you go.
Yes, personal inner peace and empowerment is vital
no matter where you live
or who you live with.
But inner strength, endurance, resolve and personal peace alone
will rarely change one's actual surrounding circumstances.
These things, for example, will not sell my house,
or cause the bank to let me just step out of my mortgage contract,
and go on my merry joyful way.
So I keep busy and personally productive
while I'm stuck here,
making the most of my personal gifts
and limited resources,
increasing them bit by bit,
(despite almost a total lack of sleep)
so at least when I get out of this mess
I'll be ready to make the most of my freedom.
I don't LIVE angry, in case you care to know,
but certain THINGS definately do make me angry.
I'm going downstairs now,
to give my daughter a music lesson.
Those things make me happy.
I know none of this probably matters to anyone.
Not really.
But I write here mostly for mySelf. so.
It's good for me.
I do what I can.
Have a joyful day.
Spirited
Bring about world peace
I agree with what you are saying. I feel that the only marriages that cannot work out are those where one or both people in the marriage are not suitable for a healthy relationship to begin with. The idea of "looking for the right person" is not something I fully understand, but, that is solely my opinion. I was taught that one should "look to be the right person", and that through that any relationship can work (though not necessarily easily or quickly).
Of course it's great to get that person who feels mega easy to get along with, but even that may not always be what is best for your spiritual growth. An example could be this: you are a selfish person, who would probably benefit from learning how to live a little less materially, but you marry someone who indulges you rather than tries to convince you to buy less shoes, clothes or whatever. While you may feel much more comfortable with the person who indulges your desire, it's easy to see how that wouldn't really help you improve yourself. That is where both the struggles and the victories of marriage come in. Maybe that's not the best example, and not everyone may agree, but I feel personally that contrast is really important for personal growth. If you have no arguments, it's either because you are both too comfortable with the way you are or you are both already perfect, I'd wager it's the first.
I don't think there is a "right" archetype for marriage, but to look at it as only a source of comfort, when so much growth can come from it, is almost undervaluing it in my opinion. I take the challenges I face and I mold them into the wings I need to fly!
vnct
Member
my friend, shirley, was left by her husband five years ago, fleeing to another state. they are still married, but she hasn't seen or heard from him in five years. she doesn't even know if he is still alive, because he hides so well.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
She should probably divorce him. It's more complicated if the spouse isn't around, but not impossible. But she needs to protect herself - she may be liable for his debts or some of his activities if she doesn't separate herself legally from him.
Have we come to this....Well, probably we have. Should most if not all of this not have been covered in "courtship"? And now is never ten years down the line. What degrees of compromise were allowed for in these courses? My ex-wife and I would have passed these sort of tests yet we are divorced. My current partner and I would not, yet we are happy. I think that the idea of being honest with ourselves is just the experience we have gained from previous failure (because we did make our own bed and it is a failing if we made it wrong) and an understanding of what is important to ourselves and what is not. During this course, at what point would you have called a halt and said love is not enough?
What despair. Don't let it kill you, UV.And THIS Kathryn, is exactly why I am so very sad for people who stay in unhappy, mismatched relationships.
Everyone deserves a loving, vital, well matched relationship such as your own, and IMO,
anything that gets in the way needs to be re'arranged, in order to make that happen.
If something in your mind had made you stay in your old marriage,
you would not have the happy life you have today.
I really cannot understand why you of all people,
are so defensive of unhappy partnerships.
My own marriage is killing me.
I HATE these stupid contractual documents that are holding me prisoner to a life I cannot stand.
Both the marriage and the house.
I WANT the hell out, and it's so freiking HARD TO DO.
Not even because there is disagreement over the divorce itself,
which really there isn't,
but because of all these damned legalities, and lack of money.
I weep for mySelf.
I weep for all of us who lack the well matched, loving and dynamic intimate life companionship we deserve, and need-- as human beings.
I weep for all of us who cannot find a way to get out of our lesser relationships. For WHATEVER reason.
Love over Legalities is what I'm talking about. And if that makes me somehow judgemental, so be it.
But don't see it as lesser, either. You have a child, do you not? A more "fulfilling" relationship will not produce what you already have. This time is only a part of your life and obviously you have a need for this part to end but that should be for its own sake (because it has become unbearable) rather than because you expect another life to be better. Reasons can also be seen as excuses, to go up you must first go down. All the way to the bottom. I thought that I could not get out until I understood that I could, as long as I was prepared to bite on the **** sandwich that is the reality of divorce: the finacial quagmire/nightmare, the children, the familly, where do I live, how do I live. But all these things are far outweighed by the utter and complete relief that this part of your life has gone and another has yet to begin. Pick up that sandwich, brown and dripping, and bite right in. Its awful at first and so it should be but if you finish it to the end you will wonder why you didn't order it before now.
laffy_taffy
Member
Divorce is allowed in the bible. It is remarriage that is not allowed (with few exceptions).
At 54, I have yet to meet anyone in life who has not, at one time or another, made a choice that turned out sour for them. I don't think our compassion for people should stop simply because, in our own infinite wisdom, we feel able to second-guess their choices for them.
vnct
Member
she says that she can't afford a lawyer to divorce him, even though she hasn't seen or heard from him in five years. she is medically disabled.
Otherright
Otherright
That's actually a very noble stance. You don't come across many with such convictions.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
She can probably get a divorce for under $600 - because he won't be around to contest it.
If I were her, I'd PAWN something if I had to, to get that money together. Or contact a social worker for advice. I could get my hands on $500 or so in this case, I promise you.
She may even be able to do a "do it yourself" divorce for less than that.