Malus 12:9
Temporarily Deactive.
But your belief is fact, or is it your fantasy?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The Real Story of Jesus
- Thread starter Cordoba
- Start date
Cordoba
Well-Known Member
Jesus's Ability to Debate
As Jesus grew, the signs of prophethood began to increase. He could tell his friends what kind of supper waited for them at home and what they had hidden and where. When he was twelve years old, he accompanied his mother to Jerusalem.
There he wandered into the temple and joined a crowd listening to the lectures of the Rabbis (Jewish priests). The audience were all adults, but he was not afraid to sit with them. After listening intently, he asked questions and expressed his opinion. The learned rabbis were disturbed by the boy's boldness and puzzled by the questions he asked, for they were unable to answer him.
UNQUOTE
According to Christian sources, Jesus peace be upon him received God's revelation at the age of 30. This is one account:
"Jesus having come to the age of thirty years, as he himself said unto me, went up to Mount Olives with his mother to gather olives. Then at midday as he was praying, when he came to these words: 'Lord, with mercy . . . ,' he was surrounded by an exceeding bright light and by an infinite multitude of angels, who were saying: 'Blessed be God.' The angel Gabriel presented to him as it were a shining mirror, a book, which descended into the heart of Jesus, in which he had knowledge of what God hath done and what hath said and what God willeth insomuch that everything was laid bare and open to him; as he said unto me: 'Believe, Barnabas, that I know every prophet with every prophecy, insomuch that whatever I say the whole bath come forth from that book.'
Jesus, having received this vision, and knowing that he was a prophet sent to the house of Israel, revealed all to Mary his mother, telling her that he needs must suffer great persecution for the honour of God, and that he could not any longer abide with her to serve her."
http://barnabas.net/barnabasP10.html
Melody: Do you know what the four Gospels say about this incident?
As Jesus grew, the signs of prophethood began to increase. He could tell his friends what kind of supper waited for them at home and what they had hidden and where. When he was twelve years old, he accompanied his mother to Jerusalem.
There he wandered into the temple and joined a crowd listening to the lectures of the Rabbis (Jewish priests). The audience were all adults, but he was not afraid to sit with them. After listening intently, he asked questions and expressed his opinion. The learned rabbis were disturbed by the boy's boldness and puzzled by the questions he asked, for they were unable to answer him.
UNQUOTE
According to Christian sources, Jesus peace be upon him received God's revelation at the age of 30. This is one account:
"Jesus having come to the age of thirty years, as he himself said unto me, went up to Mount Olives with his mother to gather olives. Then at midday as he was praying, when he came to these words: 'Lord, with mercy . . . ,' he was surrounded by an exceeding bright light and by an infinite multitude of angels, who were saying: 'Blessed be God.' The angel Gabriel presented to him as it were a shining mirror, a book, which descended into the heart of Jesus, in which he had knowledge of what God hath done and what hath said and what God willeth insomuch that everything was laid bare and open to him; as he said unto me: 'Believe, Barnabas, that I know every prophet with every prophecy, insomuch that whatever I say the whole bath come forth from that book.'
Jesus, having received this vision, and knowing that he was a prophet sent to the house of Israel, revealed all to Mary his mother, telling her that he needs must suffer great persecution for the honour of God, and that he could not any longer abide with her to serve her."
http://barnabas.net/barnabasP10.html
Melody: Do you know what the four Gospels say about this incident?
Cordoba
Well-Known Member
Jesus's Message
Like an opposing force, the message of Jesus came to denounce the practices of the Pharisees and Saducees and to reinforce the Law of Moses. In the face of a materialistic age of luxury and worship of gold, Jesus called his people to a nobler life by word and deed. This exemplary life was the only way out of the wretchedness and diseases of his age.
Jesus's call, from the beginning, was marked by its complete uprightness and piety. It appealed to the soul, the inner being, and not to a closed system of rules laid down by society.
Jesus continued inviting the people to Almighty Allah. His call was based on the principle that there is no mediation between the Creator and His creatures. However, Jesus was in conflict with the Jews' superficial interpretation of the Torah. He said that he did not come to abrogate the Torah, but to complete it by going to the spirit of its substance to arrive at its essence.
He made the Jews understand that the Ten Commandments have more value than they imagined. For instance, the fifth commandment does not only prohibit physical killing, but all forms of killing: physical, psychological, or spiritual. And the sixth commandment does not prohibit adultery only in the sense of unlawful physical contact between a man and a woman, but also prohibits all forms of unlawful relations or acts that might lead to adultery. The eye commits adultery when it looks at anything with passion.
[font=Garamond, Times New Roman, Times]Jesus Denounces Materialism[/font]
Jesus was therefore in confrontation with the materialistic people. He told them to desist from hypocrisy, show and false praise. There was no need to hoard wealth in this life. They should not preoccupy themselves with the goods of this passing world; rather they must preoccupy themselves with the affairs of the coming world because it would be everlasting.
Jesus told them that caring for this world is a sin, not fit for pious worshipers. The disbelievers care for it because they do not know a better way. As for the believers, they know that their sustenance is with Allah, so they trust in Him and scorn this world.
Jesus continued to invite people to worship the Only Lord, Who is without partner, just as he invited them to purify the heart and soul.
UNQUOTE
As a proof that Jesus was indeed sent by God to guide the lost sheep of the house of Israel, God made Jesus perform many miracles, which were great signs and clear evidence. This is what The Qur'an says in Chapter 3:
48- "And He (God) will teach him (Jesus) the Book and Al-Hikmah (wisdom), (and) the Torah and the Gospel.
49- And will make him (Jesus) a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by God's leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe.
50- And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with proof from your Lord. So fear God and obey me. Truly! God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him (Alone). This is the Straight Path." (3:48-50)
Like an opposing force, the message of Jesus came to denounce the practices of the Pharisees and Saducees and to reinforce the Law of Moses. In the face of a materialistic age of luxury and worship of gold, Jesus called his people to a nobler life by word and deed. This exemplary life was the only way out of the wretchedness and diseases of his age.
Jesus's call, from the beginning, was marked by its complete uprightness and piety. It appealed to the soul, the inner being, and not to a closed system of rules laid down by society.
Jesus continued inviting the people to Almighty Allah. His call was based on the principle that there is no mediation between the Creator and His creatures. However, Jesus was in conflict with the Jews' superficial interpretation of the Torah. He said that he did not come to abrogate the Torah, but to complete it by going to the spirit of its substance to arrive at its essence.
He made the Jews understand that the Ten Commandments have more value than they imagined. For instance, the fifth commandment does not only prohibit physical killing, but all forms of killing: physical, psychological, or spiritual. And the sixth commandment does not prohibit adultery only in the sense of unlawful physical contact between a man and a woman, but also prohibits all forms of unlawful relations or acts that might lead to adultery. The eye commits adultery when it looks at anything with passion.
[font=Garamond, Times New Roman, Times]Jesus Denounces Materialism[/font]
Jesus was therefore in confrontation with the materialistic people. He told them to desist from hypocrisy, show and false praise. There was no need to hoard wealth in this life. They should not preoccupy themselves with the goods of this passing world; rather they must preoccupy themselves with the affairs of the coming world because it would be everlasting.
Jesus told them that caring for this world is a sin, not fit for pious worshipers. The disbelievers care for it because they do not know a better way. As for the believers, they know that their sustenance is with Allah, so they trust in Him and scorn this world.
Jesus continued to invite people to worship the Only Lord, Who is without partner, just as he invited them to purify the heart and soul.
UNQUOTE
As a proof that Jesus was indeed sent by God to guide the lost sheep of the house of Israel, God made Jesus perform many miracles, which were great signs and clear evidence. This is what The Qur'an says in Chapter 3:
48- "And He (God) will teach him (Jesus) the Book and Al-Hikmah (wisdom), (and) the Torah and the Gospel.
49- And will make him (Jesus) a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by God's leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe.
50- And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with proof from your Lord. So fear God and obey me. Truly! God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him (Alone). This is the Straight Path." (3:48-50)
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Jesus did not come to preach... he came to die and used the opportunity to preach the Good news of salvation.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Matthew 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." NIV
Not only did he teach that his death was neccesary, he took a dim view of those who would teach otherwise.
22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." NIV
Not only did he teach that his death was neccesary, he took a dim view of those who would teach otherwise.
First of all, in Matthew 16:21 why Jesus himself wasn't saying that statment but it was only according to how his disciples understood him and as you know there are many verse where Jesus was telling them that they are not getting what he mean.NetDoc said:
Secondly, As you just mentioned there are some verses talking about him being killed but why he was trying to defend himself in this verse below asking his disciples to guard and buy swords?
"When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?" And they said, "Nothing" Then said he unto them, "But now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment and buy one!" (HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:35-36
". . . Lord, behold, here are two SWORDS." And he said unto them, "It is enough".
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:38
"And, behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his SWORD, and struck a servant of the high priests, and cut off his ear."
(HOLY BIBLE) Matthew 26:51
What all these events for if the case wasn't like he was defending himself?
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Let's revisit Matthew 26...
Matthew 26:1 When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, 2"As you know, the Passover is two days awayand the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified". NIV
Now let's finish the interaction, which you conveniently left out...
Matthew 26:50 Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for."
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?" NIV
Swords were used for MANY things: cooking, defense against animals, cutting, etc. The sword was the "leatherman" of the time. The point was for the disciples to get ready.
Matthew 26:1 When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, 2"As you know, the Passover is two days awayand the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified". NIV
Now let's finish the interaction, which you conveniently left out...
Matthew 26:50 Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for."
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?" NIV
Swords were used for MANY things: cooking, defense against animals, cutting, etc. The sword was the "leatherman" of the time. The point was for the disciples to get ready.
Cordoba
Well-Known Member
Hello NetDoc:NetDoc said:
As suggested by The Truth, the passage you quoted is not a clear saying of Jesus peace be upon him that his mission was to be crucified in order that sin is removed from the world.
What he says is that he has to go to Jerusalem and that it would be a risky struggle, but he doesn't say he wants to go there to be crucified.
Could (Jesus dying for the sins of mankind) be a human interpretation by some of the later disciples, like Paul, in trying to understand why, (whom they thought was Jesus), was crucified?
Also, if as you say the mission of Jesus peace be upon him was to die (and not to preach God's religion), why is the person who was eventually crucified reported to have said on the cross (My God, My God, Why have You forsaken me)?
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Read the post just prior to yours Cordoba, for the answer to your first three points/quesitons.
The final one goes back to what Jesus did for you and me. He who knew no sin, became sin! God cannot have communion with sin and for the first time in Jesus' existence, he was seperated from his Father.
It is important to note, that the disciples freely translated Jesus' Aramaic into Greek when the gospels were written. However, for this passage they included the Aramaic as well. They realized that those were the most profound words ever spoken since the beginning of time and they were going to give them to us. There are TONS of passages that will support this, if you want I can provide them for you.
The final one goes back to what Jesus did for you and me. He who knew no sin, became sin! God cannot have communion with sin and for the first time in Jesus' existence, he was seperated from his Father.
It is important to note, that the disciples freely translated Jesus' Aramaic into Greek when the gospels were written. However, for this passage they included the Aramaic as well. They realized that those were the most profound words ever spoken since the beginning of time and they were going to give them to us. There are TONS of passages that will support this, if you want I can provide them for you.
Cordoba
Well-Known Member
Hello NetDoc:
It will be difficult to debate the issue of original sin, as this is one of the main issues where the Christian and the Muslim understanding are very different.
But in any case, we could give it a try.
It is true that the sin of Adam caused him to be sent out of Paradise, but did God later forgive him?
The answer is yes, He did. God taught Adam how to sincerely repent, which he did, and God forgave him as God is The Most Merciful. The same applies to all mankind. If a believer sins all what he or she has to do is to regret what happened, repent and ask God to fogive with the sincere intention of not doing that sin again, and God will forgive.
Each person is responsible for their own deeds, and nobody can carry the responsibility of what we do. On the Day of Judgement, each person will be held accountable for what they did in their life, that is how The Just God is going to judge us.
God created us for His Love and Mercy, and He knows that we will do wrong as well as good because we are not angels. All what we should do when we commit a sin is to sincerely repent, and as God is The Most Merciful, He forgives all sins. He does not need Jesus to suffer for us, as He directly forgives those who seek His forgiveness.
That is the summary of the Muslim understanding on this issue.
As such, Jesus peace be upon him (from a Muslim perspective) did not die for our sins. God sent him to guide the Sons of Israel to the truth, and he preached the word of God while confirming what was previously revealed by God in The Torah.
All the best.
It will be difficult to debate the issue of original sin, as this is one of the main issues where the Christian and the Muslim understanding are very different.
But in any case, we could give it a try.
It is true that the sin of Adam caused him to be sent out of Paradise, but did God later forgive him?
The answer is yes, He did. God taught Adam how to sincerely repent, which he did, and God forgave him as God is The Most Merciful. The same applies to all mankind. If a believer sins all what he or she has to do is to regret what happened, repent and ask God to fogive with the sincere intention of not doing that sin again, and God will forgive.
Each person is responsible for their own deeds, and nobody can carry the responsibility of what we do. On the Day of Judgement, each person will be held accountable for what they did in their life, that is how The Just God is going to judge us.
God created us for His Love and Mercy, and He knows that we will do wrong as well as good because we are not angels. All what we should do when we commit a sin is to sincerely repent, and as God is The Most Merciful, He forgives all sins. He does not need Jesus to suffer for us, as He directly forgives those who seek His forgiveness.
That is the summary of the Muslim understanding on this issue.
As such, Jesus peace be upon him (from a Muslim perspective) did not die for our sins. God sent him to guide the Sons of Israel to the truth, and he preached the word of God while confirming what was previously revealed by God in The Torah.
All the best.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Go ahead, but I don't believe in "Original Sin".Cordoba said:
Every one has sinned. You don't need Adam's sin to make you a sinner. I don't see how this addresses the fact that Jesus had to die for YOUR sins (for mine too!).
Malus 12:9
Temporarily Deactive.
Sin of Adam? Cordoba must be female.
Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Whi is it Adam's sin?
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
He came to die, but if didn't preach, the stones would have preached for him.
Cordoba
Well-Known Member
Dear NetDoc:NetDoc said:Go ahead, but I don't believe in "Original Sin".
Every one has sinned. You don't need Adam's sin to make you a sinner. I don't see how this addresses the fact that Jesus had to die for YOUR sins (for mine too!).
For God to forgive our sins, all what is needed from us is a sincere repentance.
God does not need Jesus, peace be upon him, to suffer and die for us, simply because He is The Most Merciful, The Loving and Forgiving God.
Malus 12:9
Temporarily Deactive.
God killed 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census thing of the people..
He also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there..The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave you can read
In Exodus 21:1-11
There was Murder in pillage in the book of Deut, but I'll let Deut himself tell you if that is
wrong or right statement.
God is scary...