Christians - Mark 26:34

Aqualung · Oct 25, 2005

SoyLeche said:
And I don't even know you as well as God does :biglaugh:

But see, I had the option of choosing not to. It was really more of an educated guess. I thought for a little bit that I just wouldn't, just to prove you wrong, but I decided that it wasn't worth it. But what if I had? You would be made the liar. And what if Peter hadn't? He would make Jesus the liar.

SoyLeche · Oct 25, 2005

Aqualung said:
But see, I had the option of choosing not to. It was really more of an educated guess. I thought for a little bit that I just wouldn't, just to prove you wrong, but I decided that it wasn't worth it. But what if I had? You would be made the liar. And what if Peter hadn't? He would make Jesus the liar.

Exactly. You chose to do it, and me knowing that you would didn't cause it. I thought about the chance that you would not post just to prove me wrong, but I also know that you wouldn't do that. Sure, in my case it was an educated guess, but apparently it was a pretty good one. Mosltly, I just wanted to see if I was right. :bounce

Aqualung · Oct 25, 2005

SoyLeche said:
Exactly. You chose to do it, and me knowing that you would didn't cause it. I thought about the chance that you would not post just to prove me wrong, but I also know that you wouldn't do that. Sure, in my case it was an educated guess, but apparently it was a pretty good one. Mosltly, I just wanted to see if I was right. :bounce

So are all of God's predictions "educated guesses?"

SoyLeche · Oct 25, 2005

Aqualung said:
So are all of God's predictions "educated guesses?"

Educated by knowing everything ... sure. Read the books I mentioned. They will help more than I can right now. I need to get SOME work done today.

Aqualung · Oct 25, 2005

Pfff. work schmork. Nothing is more important than sitting around posting on forums all day!

SoyLeche · Oct 25, 2005

SoyLeche said:
Educated by knowing everything ... sure. Read the books I mentioned. They will help more than I can right now. I need to get SOME work done today.

Had to add something, just because I'm in the middle of studying for a big exam on Statistics, my guess had a very small variance. God's has zero variance.

Dentonz · Oct 25, 2005

Aqualung said:
I don't have that perfected knowledge. God does. Therefore, when he does thing that seem miraculous, he is really just operating under those same laws that you and I operate under. But with a better understanding of those laws, he can do a lot cooler stuff.

And all I'm trying to say is I believe he does.

I think people tend to misunderstand what "all-powerful" means. I see it more as meaning "being able to do everything that it is possible to do," and not "being able to do the impossible." It's not possible (in my beliefs) for God to step outside of the laws of nature.

Matt 19:26 " with men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Mark 10:27 " with men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible."

Mark 14:36 " ...all things are possible unto thee..."

Luke 1:37 " with God nothing is impossible"

Luke 18:27 "the things which are impossible to men are possible to God"

I tend to believe what Jesus said.
And about all-powerfull: Mr Webster says"absolute power, omnipotent,almighty"
absolute: perfect in quality or nature; complete. not limited by restrictions or exceptions. unqualified in extent or degree. unconstrained by constitutional or other provisions. not to be doubted or questioned.
So according to our Lord and finisher of our faith and the father of our most reputable dictionary, both tend to agree with what I said about God not being bound by the laws that he created.
With God there are no predictions or 'educated guesses' he is the beginning and the end of all that is or was or ever will be. He is at the creation and armageddon all at once. If he chose to make a square and call it a triangle he could. If he decided to make two magnets the size of the span of eternity, all he would have to do is speak and they would separate. We put names on things and come up with limits for our own good. With God there are no limits physical or spiritual. And when I said God does not live in the physical realm. What I meant was: His physical body is not here, he is in Heaven on the throne. The Holy Spirit is here on the earth to convict us of our sins and give us power in the name of Jesus. His power is just as real physically as it is spiritually.

SoyLeche · Oct 25, 2005

Dentonz said:
Matt 19:26 " with men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Mark 10:27 " with men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible."

Mark 14:36 " ...all things are possible unto thee..."

Luke 1:37 " with God nothing is impossible"

Luke 18:27 "the things which are impossible to men are possible to God"

I tend to believe what Jesus said.
And about all-powerfull: Mr Webster says"absolute power, omnipotent,almighty"
absolute: perfect in quality or nature; complete. not limited by restrictions or exceptions. unqualified in extent or degree. unconstrained by constitutional or other provisions. not to be doubted or questioned.
So according to our Lord and finisher of our faith and the father of our most reputable dictionary, both tend to agree with what I said about God not being bound by the laws that he created.
With God there are no predictions or 'educated guesses' he is the beginning and the end of all that is or was or ever will be. He is at the creation and armageddon all at once. If he chose to make a square and call it a triangle he could. If he decided to make two magnets the size of the span of eternity, all he would have to do is speak and they would separate. We put names on things and come up with limits for our own good. With God there are no limits physical or spiritual. And when I said God does not live in the physical realm. What I meant was: His physical body is not here, he is in Heaven on the throne. The Holy Spirit is here on the earth to convict us of our sins and give us power in the name of Jesus. His power is just as real physically as it is spiritually.

Kind of a fun mind game: Can God create anything so heavy that he can't lift it?

Aqualung · Oct 25, 2005

Dentonz said:
Matt 19:26 " with men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Mark 10:27 " with men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible."

Mark 14:36 " ...all things are possible unto thee..."

Luke 1:37 " with God nothing is impossible"

Luke 18:27 "the things which are impossible to men are possible to God"

I tend to believe what Jesus said.
And about all-powerfull: Mr Webster says"absolute power, omnipotent,almighty"
absolute: perfect in quality or nature; complete. not limited by restrictions or exceptions. unqualified in extent or degree. unconstrained by constitutional or other provisions. not to be doubted or questioned.
So according to our Lord and finisher of our faith and the father of our most reputable dictionary, both tend to agree with what I said about God not being bound by the laws that he created.
With God there are no predictions or 'educated guesses' he is the beginning and the end of all that is or was or ever will be. He is at the creation and armageddon all at once. If he chose to make a square and call it a triangle he could. If he decided to make two magnets the size of the span of eternity, all he would have to do is speak and they would separate. We put names on things and come up with limits for our own good. With God there are no limits physical or spiritual. And when I said God does not live in the physical realm. What I meant was: His physical body is not here, he is in Heaven on the throne. The Holy Spirit is here on the earth to convict us of our sins and give us power in the name of Jesus. His power is just as real physically as it is spiritually.

Your scriptures don't support your conclusion at all.

Dentonz · Oct 25, 2005

Aqualung said:
Your scriptures don't support your conclusion at all.

I gave you scripture where Jesus said that there is nothing impossible with God and that which is impossible to man is possible with God. You said, you believed that God could do anything that was 'possible' to do. Jesus clearly states that God can do all things whether it is possible or not. This isn't something that is lost in translation, it's perfectly clear. I'm not trying to persuade you to believe the way I do; I'm just trying to show you what the Bible says about it. If you don't believe the Bible to be the whole complete Word of God, that's between you and your faith. And it's also perfectly clear that the dictionary disagrees with your definition of all-powerfull. I just can't understand how you can belittle God by putting him under the control of something he created, yet still worship him as 'God'. Like I said before; if he's not who he says he is, then he's not holy or just or any other attribute the Bible gives him.

I worship the one Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Holy, Just, Most High, God and Father of all that is. All of which is backed up by the Bible, not my personal opinions or understanding. "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him and he will direct thy path." Prov 3:5-6.

Aqualung · Oct 25, 2005

You said that things that are impossible to us are possible to God. I think that's what "impossible" means. It's impossible to us, yet still possible for God.

I'm not belittling God. He created us. He created the World. He is worthy of my worship. I don't see how thinking the laws were there to begin with belittles him.

angellous_evangellous · Oct 25, 2005

Dentonz said:
Matt 19:26 " with men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Mark 10:27 " with men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible."

Mark 14:36 " ...all things are possible unto thee..."

Luke 1:37 " with God nothing is impossible"

Luke 18:27 "the things which are impossible to men are possible to God"

I tend to believe what Jesus said.
And about all-powerfull: Mr Webster says"absolute power, omnipotent,almighty"
absolute: perfect in quality or nature; complete. not limited by restrictions or exceptions. unqualified in extent or degree. unconstrained by constitutional or other provisions. not to be doubted or questioned.

So according to our Lord and finisher of our faith and the father of our most reputable dictionary, both tend to agree with what I said about God not being bound by the laws that he created.

With God there are no predictions or 'educated guesses' he is the beginning and the end of all that is or was or ever will be. He is at the creation and armageddon all at once. If he chose to make a square and call it a triangle he could. If he decided to make two magnets the size of the span of eternity, all he would have to do is speak and they would separate. We put names on things and come up with limits for our own good. With God there are no limits physical or spiritual. And when I said God does not live in the physical realm. What I meant was: His physical body is not here, he is in Heaven on the throne. The Holy Spirit is here on the earth to convict us of our sins and give us power in the name of Jesus. His power is just as real physically as it is spiritually.

Using a dictionary to develop a theology is perversely limited. Definitions must be interpreted and applied, which is mostly a philosophical engagement.

God can of course do all things that are possible to do. There is nothing impossible for God that is possible for God. He can't create something that limits his power, which is where using dictionary definitions alone can't solve the problem. He can't create something that limits his power, because that creation would threaten his omnipotence. That is, if God #1 created a God #2 that was more powerful, then God #1 would no longer be almighty. Similarly, if God created something that was too heavy for him to lift, he would no longer be all-powerful (omnipotent - in case the dictionary is on the shelf). Also, God can create anything that is possible to create, and we can think quite quickly of things that are not possible to create, like a round square or a triangle with four sides.

By the way, I would not tout Webster as the sum of human knowledge. Try reaching for an Oxford sometime, or perhaps the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, or the Anchor Bible Dictionary. Great and useful stuff.

angellous_evangellous · Oct 25, 2005

Aqualung said:
You said that things that are impossible to us are possible to God. I think that's what "impossible" means. It's impossible to us, yet still possible for God.

I'm not belittling God. He created us. He created the World. He is worthy of my worship. I don't see how thinking the laws were there to begin with belittles him.

Indeed, God cannot be limited by our understanding. God is who God is. We can't affect God's power.

We can, however, blaspheme the name of God by radically misunderstanding how God reveals "his" nature, characteristics, and power. Your statement He is worthy of my worship is very well put. He is worthy of our worship, and may God show all of us great mercy where we misunderstand His incredible attributes. :162:

SoyLeche · Oct 26, 2005

angellous_evangellous said:
There is nothing impossible for God that is possible for God.

While I am not disagreeing with you, I'd just like to point out that tautologies such as this, while they are true, don't really add all that much to an argument.

BTW, nothing is imposible for me that is possible for me either.

angellous_evangellous · Oct 26, 2005

SoyLeche said:
While I am not disagreeing with you, I'd just like to point out that tautologies such as this, while they are true, don't really add all that much to an argument.

BTW, nothing is imposible for me that is possible for me either.

That's why I emboldened my point, and I think that you understood me perfectly. God can't do anything that limits his power or threatens His unique nature (from the orthodox Christian point of view). So yes, of course, God can do all things that are possible for God to do, just like nothing is imposible for me that is possible for me either, only you are limited by your human nature, and God is limited by His divine nature.

By His nature, God has infinate power, but there are things that are not possible for God to do that would limit His power. It sounds circular, but it answers the question (Can God create something so heavy that He cannot lift it?) perfectly while retaining the all-powerfullness of God and monotheism of Christianity.

Aqualung · Oct 26, 2005

I understand you, and I completely agree with that.

Dentonz · Oct 27, 2005

angellous_evangellous said:
Using a dictionary to develop a theology is perversely limited. Definitions must be interpreted and applied, which is mostly a philosophical engagement.

God can of course do all things that are possible to do. There is nothing impossible for God that is possible for God. He can't create something that limits his power, which is where using dictionary definitions alone can't solve the problem. He can't create something that limits his power, because that creation would threaten his omnipotence. That is, if God #1 created a God #2 that was more powerful, then God #1 would no longer be almighty. Similarly, if God created something that was too heavy for him to lift, he would no longer be all-powerful (omnipotent - in case the dictionary is on the shelf). Also, God can create anything that is possible to create, and we can think quite quickly of things that are not possible to create, like a round square or a triangle with four sides.

By the way, I would not tout Webster as the sum of human knowledge. Try reaching for an Oxford sometime, or perhaps the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, or the Anchor Bible Dictionary. Great and useful stuff.

The Bible does not say anything about God being able to do things that are possible to do. The Bible does say that he can do all things, and nothing is impossible to God. Is it possible for anything to be created from nothing? No, it is absolutely impossible to create something from nothing. Nevertheless, the earth and all the universe is here. There was nothing; God spoke, and it became something. And of course God cannot create another god that would be more powerfull, because that god would be a creation. God was not created, he has always been. And putting human limitations on God such as physicall strength is absolutely absurd:banghead3 :banghead3 !! God can't create a one-wheeled bicycle or a square triangle or a round square, because when you change something it becomes something else. He still has absolute and total power over all.
My God is not inside the box of man's very limited understanding.
No matter what dictionary you use, omnipotent means omnipotent.

Linus · Oct 27, 2005

Aqualung said:
"Before the cock crows, thou shalt deny me thrice."

How could Jesus have known this, granted that:
A) He gave us free will, and therefore Peter could have chosen not to deny.
B) God will not tempt us past our ability to withstand.

I believe it is as simple as this: Jesus made a prediction, and that prediction came true. I think that once Jesus told Peter about it, he sort of forgot about it, shrugging it off because he didn't think it would ever happen. So when it really happened, he finally realized what he had done. Kind of like the rooster was a reminder that triggered the waterworks.

Does that make sense?

Nick Soapdish · Oct 27, 2005

Aqualung said:
The laws are outside this world. They were also "in the beginning." He didn't create those laws. (and by the way, I'm not sure if I'm talking mormon doctrine or not. I'm just speaking of my own thoughts)

I do not believe your thoughts are typical of a theist, but rather they seem to represent the beliefs of a pantheist.

The laws of physics, or "nature" as we know it, is a creation unto itself. SoyLeche recommended C.S. Lewis and I would to. He has a great description of nature as a beautiful and dangerous creature. But it is one that is created, and created for a very specific purpose.

In fact, it is the laws of physics that allows us to have freewill. Without our ability to predict the effect to a particular cause, we would not be able to enact our will.

Nick Soapdish · Oct 27, 2005

JamesThePersian said:
But given that God is eternal and outside of time, there really is no such thing as 'before it occurs' from His point of view. Someone suggesting then, that God's knowing the actions we will make means we have no free will is rather like me saying that because I know Hitler shot himself I caused him to do so.

James

What he said. :clap

Christians - Mark 26:34

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