Just a quick question from someone who knows very little about Xianity.

Zephyr · Oct 24, 2005

In class today I heard a few Christian friends talking about religion. I always enjoy these kinds of conversations, so I joined in. Anyways, eventually the conversation switched to being about Judas Iscariot. The bell rang and left me with a question: Shouldn't Judas be considered a good guy, or at least better than he is generally put out to be? After all, if Jesus's(pbuh) death saved mankind, and Judas's betrayal caused Jesus(pbuh) to be crucified as the story goes, wouldn't Judas have indirectly caused everyone to be saved? My dad personally believes that Judas was the greatest of the apostles for this reason. Of course Judas felt VERY bad about the betrayal (he hung himself after all.) but he did it anyways. Of course I have my own conspiracy theories about it all. Did Jesus(pbuh) want Judas to have him executed as part of a big plan, essentially making him somewhat of a hero?

Just a thought. I'd like to be enlightened on this issue.

ChrisP · Oct 24, 2005

Does the end justify the means?

robtex · Oct 24, 2005

I am thinking Judas, in the bible was a pawn of predestination. Jesus was to die a prophecy was to unfold and Judas was a componet of the prophecy.

may · Oct 25, 2005

Was not the traitorous course of one of Jesus disciples clearly prophesied in advance? Yes, but the prophecies did not specify which disciple would be the betrayer. Indeed, what if Jesus had known that Judas would be the betrayer? Then Jesus appointing Judas as an apostle would have made Him a "sharer" in that betrayers sins. (Compare 1 Timothy 5:22.) God himself would also be an accomplice, since Jesus preceded his selection of Judas with fervent prayer to Jehovah.Luke 6:12-16.

it was Satan, not God, who put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, to betray Jesus Christ. (John 13:2; ) Rather than resisting satanic influence, Judas allowed sin to gain the mastery over him. And at some point Jesus was able to read Judas heart and therefore foretell his betrayal. (John 13:10, 11) so Jesus knew of Judas betrayal "from the beginning"not of his acquaintance with Judas, but from the "beginning" of that ones acting treacherously.John 6:64

michel · Oct 25, 2005

robtex said:
I am thinking Judas, in the bible was a pawn of predestination. Jesus was to die a prophecy was to unfold and Judas was a componet of the prophecy.

That sounds about right to me, Rob.

James the Persian · Oct 26, 2005

michel said:
That sounds about right to me, Rob.

Not to me. Predestination and foreknowledge are completely different things (though I don't want to have to go through all this yet again). Predestination was completely alien to Christianity up until the time of Bl. Augustine and his predestinationist ideas are still rejected by all eastern Christians. The really strong ideas of predestination date from the Reformation with people like Calvin and are not a part of the beliefs of anybody in the early Church. I will never get why people seem to have such difficulty understanding the difference between a God who is outside of time knowing all that will ever occur in the universe and Him forcing it to be so.

The betrayal was Judas' free will decision and so he is justly condemned by the Church for it. Of course, as our soteriology is primarily Incarnational rather than being fixated on the Crucifixion, it's quite possible for me to accept the possibility of our salvation even if Christ weren't crucified, which makes Judas' betrayal (in my eyes) all the worse.

James

ChrisP · Oct 26, 2005

michel said:
That sounds about right to me, Rob.

I also have a problem with this, as Biblically speaking God would like to see everyone in heaven if they are prepared to follow him. Judas hung himself, and suicide = go straight to hell, do not pass Go, do not collect 200$.

Zephyr · Oct 26, 2005

SnaleSpace said:
I also have a problem with this, as Biblically speaking God would like to see everyone in heaven if they are prepared to follow him. Judas hung himself, and suicide = go straight to hell, do not pass Go, do not collect 200$.

I have another question. If Jesus died for everyone's sins, does that include Judas too?

ChrisP · Oct 26, 2005

Zephyr said:
I have another question. If Jesus died for everyone's sins, does that include Judas too?

Yes, but in order to be forgiven, you must be repentant. Can't repent when you're dead now can ya!

Katzpur · Oct 26, 2005

SnaleSpace said:
Yes, but in order to be forgiven, you must be repentant. Can't repent when you're dead now can ya!

Well, that all depends upon who you ask, SnaleSpace?

Katzpur · Oct 26, 2005

JamesThePersian said:
Not to me. Predestination and foreknowledge are completely different things (though I don't want to have to go through all this yet again). Predestination was completely alien to Christianity up until the time of Bl. Augustine and his predestinationist ideas are still rejected by all eastern Christians. The really strong ideas of predestination date from the Reformation with people like Calvin and are not a part of the beliefs of anybody in the early Church. I will never get why people seem to have such difficulty understanding the difference between a God who is outside of time knowing all that will ever occur in the universe and Him forcing it to be so.

I think you're absolutely right. I don't believe God has ever "predestined" anyone to burn in Hell. He's not that kind of a Father. But He did have a perfect knowledge about what kind of person Judas was, and He knew that, if given the right combination of circumstances, he'd turn on Christ.

Kathryn

Katzpur · Oct 26, 2005

SnaleSpace said:
I also have a problem with this, as Biblically speaking God would like to see everyone in heaven if they are prepared to follow him. Judas hung himself, and suicide = go straight to hell, do not pass Go, do not collect 200$.

Obviously, Judas' fate rests in God's hands -- not ours. However, I don't believe that suicide is automatically a one-way ticket to hell. The Bible refers to one "unforgivable sin," and it's blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, not murder or suicide.

Lindsey-Loo · Oct 26, 2005

I have another question. If Jesus died for everyone's sins, does that include Judas too?

Yes. I agree with SnaleSpace, however, that you must repent, and you can't repent if you have already died.

Lindsey-Loo · Oct 26, 2005

Obviously, Judas' fate rests in God's hands -- not ours. However, I don't believe that suicide is automatically a one-way ticket to hell. The Bible refers to one "unforgivable sin," and it's blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, not murder or suicide.

I would have to disagree. If the last thing you ever did was suicide, which is a sin, you would not have a chance to repent, and would therefore go to Hell. If the last thing you ever did was lie, steal, etc. etc. and you never had a chance to repent, you would go to Hell.

I somewhat know about your belief, Katz, about baptism for the dead, so it would be very hard for us to debate this point, unless we first debate baptism for the dead, which we already have. If you would like to re-debate this topic, I would be happy to.

may · Oct 27, 2005

In spite of having turned against Christ, Judas continued to associate with him so he was a hypocrite

So, while the evening meal was going on, the Devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Is·car´i·ot John 13;2

(Matthew 15:19) For example, out of the heart come wicked reasonings, murders, adulteries, fornications, thieveries, false testimonies, blasphemies.

(Luke 22:3) But Satan entered into Judas, the one called Is·car´i·ot, who was numbered among the twelve............... so Judas was a good follower of Jesus at one time ,but he allowed satan to get the power over him:tsk:

Katzpur · Oct 27, 2005

Christiangirl0909 said:
I would have to disagree. If the last thing you ever did was suicide, which is a sin, you would not have a chance to repent, and would therefore go to Hell. If the last thing you ever did was lie, steal, etc. etc. and you never had a chance to repent, you would go to Hell.

Can you provide some scriptural support for this, Christiangirl? Are you really saying that if a person spent his entire life in service to others, believed in Jesus Christ and made a real effort to follow His example, but lost his temper one day, and took the Lord's name in vain (for example), and an hour later was killed in an automobile accident, he'd go to Hell?

I hope that's not what you really mean. I'm having a really hard time believing that you think God works that way.

jonny · Oct 27, 2005

Katzpur said:
Can you provide some scriptural support for this, Christiangirl? Are you really saying that if a person spent his entire life in service to others, believed in Jesus Christ and made a real effort to follow His example, but lost his temper one day, and took the Lord's name in vain (for example), and an hour later was killed in an automobile accident, he'd go to Hell? I hope that's not what you really mean. I'm having a really hard time believing that you think God works that way.

It's all luck. You just gotta hope you die on the way up, not when you stumble.

may · Oct 28, 2005

For if we PRATICE sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left hebrews 10;26...........so to be a praticer of something we keep on doing it ,its not a one off that we are sorry about

Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those PRATICING such things are deserving of death, they not only KEEP ON doing them but also consent with those practicing them romans 1;32

jonny · Oct 28, 2005

may said:
For if we PRATICE sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left hebrews 10;26...........so to be a praticer of something we keep on doing it ,its not a one off that we are sorry about

Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those PRATICING such things are deserving of death, they not only KEEP ON doing them but also consent with those practicing them romans 1;32

So, is repentance no longer an option once you know the truth?

may · Oct 29, 2005

jonny said:
So, is repentance no longer an option once you know the truth?

only God can read hearts so he would know if we are genuine sorry or not , i supose it boils down to our heart condtion as the bible tells us
Many people who have been told that they are "saved" seem to have little intention of either following or obeying Jesus

provided, indeed, that you heard him and were taught by means of him, just as truth is in Jesus, that you should put away the old personality which conforms to your former course of conduct

but that you should be made new in the force actuating your mind, and should put on the new personality which was created according to Gods will in true righteousness and loyalty

One of Jesus disciples warned that ungodly men were "turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 4) How might we, in fact, turn Gods mercy "into an excuse for loose conduct"? We could do so by assuming that Christs sacrifice covers deliberate sins that we intend to keep on committing rather than sins of human imperfection that we are trying to put behind us

Just a quick question from someone who knows very little about Xianity.

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