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Christian: Father, Son and "Ignored One"
- Thread starter Katzpur
- Start date
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Actually, I believe I do understand what the role of the Holy Spirit is. I was just trying to get other Christians to stop and think about their own views. I appreciate your input, even though I don't agree that the Holy Spirit represents the divine feminine. (As a Latter-day Saint, I do believe in the divine feminine, though. I just don't want to discuss it on this thread.)EnhancedSpirit said:
I disagree about God not having a physical body. But it's interesting that you would say what you did, because it leads right into my reason for starting this thread. Most Christians believe that "God" has no physical form, that He is merely a Spirit. On the other hand, many believe that His Son Jesus Christ does have the form of a man. (How they can be part of a single substance when one is corporeal and the other is not is something I'll never understand if I live to be a hundred, but is, again, not the subject of this thread.)
I believe that the Father and the Son both have glorified physical bodies of flesh and bones. I believe that they are literally "in heaven," which is where Christ always said His Father was. What I'm trying to get at is if God the Father and the Holy Ghost are both spirits, what purpose is there to the Holy Ghost's existance? We'd have the Father (spirit), the Son (corporeal) and the Holy Ghost (spirit). It seems to me that His very name is a description of how He differs from the Father and the Son. If the Father was also only spirit, why would the scriptures specifically designate the Holy Spirit by this name? I believe that He is the part of the Godhead that the scriptures are referring to when they say "God is spirit." It is the Holy Ghost through whom the Father reveals himself, because, being a spirit, the Holy Ghost can be everywhere at once. The Father, on the other hand, dwells in heaven. He has a spirit of His own but is not the same being as the Holy Ghost.
I'm afraid I'm starting to ramble. I'd better stop. Maybe I should have just asked, "Why do we call the Holy Spirit by that name?"
EnhancedSpirit
High Priestess
If we use ourselves as a mirror. We can look at the fact that we are mind, body and spirit. God the Father is the 'mind', Jesus is the 'body' and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit. Our body will die, just as Jesus did. Our minds are the creative force within us, just like God, the Father created us, and the Spirit is what connects us all.
Let's say that the Holy Spirit is like a spiritual umbilical cord. For many people, this cord is only the size of a small thread, as we grow spiritually, the connection gets bigger. It is said of Jesus that the Holy Spirit was given without measure unto Him (John 3:34). So the cord connected to Jesus was like the size of a tree trunk compared to the connections the rest of us have. We have the ability to grow our connection and to be as open to the Holy Spirit as was Jesus.
What makes the cord expand is love, compassion, forgiveness, charity, and grace. What constricts the cord is hate, fear, jealousy, greed, etc. And to sever the cord completely, is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. Sin is 'turning away from God', and if you completely severe that connection, then God can no longer work through you. By opening that connection, you allow God's will to flow freely and unobstructed.
Let's say that the Holy Spirit is like a spiritual umbilical cord. For many people, this cord is only the size of a small thread, as we grow spiritually, the connection gets bigger. It is said of Jesus that the Holy Spirit was given without measure unto Him (John 3:34). So the cord connected to Jesus was like the size of a tree trunk compared to the connections the rest of us have. We have the ability to grow our connection and to be as open to the Holy Spirit as was Jesus.
What makes the cord expand is love, compassion, forgiveness, charity, and grace. What constricts the cord is hate, fear, jealousy, greed, etc. And to sever the cord completely, is the only sin that cannot be forgiven. Sin is 'turning away from God', and if you completely severe that connection, then God can no longer work through you. By opening that connection, you allow God's will to flow freely and unobstructed.
http://www.siscom.net/~direct/holyspirit/bible_times.htm said:
Gods spirit is an active force that does things. It was used to call for the disciples Barnabas and Saul to be set aside for special missionary work ...acts 13;2
Gods holy spirit is his invisible active force. (Genesis 1:2) yes Gods active force can acheive many things ...1 corinthians 12;11
It was the apostle Paul who wrote: "Do not be grieving Gods holy spirit." (Ephesians 4:30) Some take these words to be an indication that the holy spirit is a person. the early Christians viewed the holy spirit neither as a person nor as a god equal to the Most High as part of a so-called Trinity. (Luke 12:42) So Paul was not referring to Gods holy spirit as a person.
Gods holy spirit is his invisible active force. (Genesis 1:2) yes Gods active force can acheive many things ...1 corinthians 12;11
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
So Spirit, how did you come to believe these things? I've never heard a Christian explain it the way you do and I can't imagine you would be able to find a denomination that taught this. Your analogies are interesting, but I just don't find any scriptural support for them. So I'm wondering if you just came to this conclusion on your own or what? Thanks!EnhancedSpirit said:
NoName
Member
May - How can you cause something that is just someone else's "active force" to grieve? Wouldn't you actually be causing the ones that "activates" that force to grieve? Like if I try to give you some food, and you bite my hand, does my hand grieve, or do I? I do. So if the HOly Spirit were just an "active force," how is it grieved?
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
The holy ghost is my counselor. He helps me to understand what I need to change to be like God.
John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"
23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. NIV
The Holy Spirit changes my heart:
II Corinthians 3:17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. NIV
The Holy Spirit fills my heart with LOVE:
Romans 5:5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. N IV
The Holy Spirit is my SEAL of redemption, my spiritual "Get out of Jail FREE" card:
Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possessionto the praise of his glory. NIV
But most importantly, the Spirit gives me the mind of Christ:
I Corinthians 2:10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. NIV
John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"
23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. NIV
The Holy Spirit changes my heart:
II Corinthians 3:17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. NIV
The Holy Spirit fills my heart with LOVE:
Romans 5:5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. N IV
The Holy Spirit is my SEAL of redemption, my spiritual "Get out of Jail FREE" card:
Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possessionto the praise of his glory. NIV
But most importantly, the Spirit gives me the mind of Christ:
I Corinthians 2:10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. NIV
EnhancedSpirit
High Priestess
from Essence of the Holy Spirit
The portion of the Trinity which we most easily interact with, is treated as the vaguest in concept! Most Christians can personally have a visualization of Jesus, even without personal interaction with Him. Many can conceptualize the Father, if only by the enormous power that He wields. Few give much thought to the Holy Spirit. I hope and pray that the following will help.
All Christians know that mankind, and all of its individual members, are intrinsically evil.
God generously provides the availability of the Holy Spirit to each of us humans to deal with this flaw. By accepting Jesus as one's personal Savior, in the action of becoming a Christian, (Salvation) a part of the Holy Spirit joins with the person. The person now not only has the original evil, flesh-driven personality. Now there is also a second, competing, moral presence, that of the Holy Spirit, forever indwelling within him/her. The person now becomes capable of EITHER good OR evil.
Nearly all Christians speak of the Indwelling Holy Spirit. Many references in the Bible refer to this situation. I Cor. 3:16; Rom. 8:9; Ezek. 36:27; I Cor. 6:19; John 14:17; II Tim. 1:14; I John 2:27; I John 3:24; Rom. 8:10; John 14:20; are some direct references to the fact that Christians carry an Indwelling Holy Spirit. There are many more. This word is used to describe the fact that the Holy Spirit has actually become a permanent part of the person.
From that point on, the person is able to see daily situations in either of two lights, and as a result, CAN respond in a moral, Christian manner. Unfortunately, that does not always happen. People often ignore these ethical, moral, positive thoughts, which were inspired by the presence of the Holy Spirit, and they respond in some selfish or lustful way (as their OWN original nature wants). Long ago, God, with His infinite foresight, knew that this situation would occur. He knew that we would each need the continuing presence of the Holy Spirit, to practice and learn the proper behavior patterns. He knew that a single lesson would be lost on us. He needed to 'install' part of the Holy Spirit in each of us, in order to continuously combat the naturally evil tendencies of our humanness, and in order to continuously teach us proper Christian thoughts and behavior.
The portion of the Trinity which we most easily interact with, is treated as the vaguest in concept! Most Christians can personally have a visualization of Jesus, even without personal interaction with Him. Many can conceptualize the Father, if only by the enormous power that He wields. Few give much thought to the Holy Spirit. I hope and pray that the following will help.
All Christians know that mankind, and all of its individual members, are intrinsically evil.
God generously provides the availability of the Holy Spirit to each of us humans to deal with this flaw. By accepting Jesus as one's personal Savior, in the action of becoming a Christian, (Salvation) a part of the Holy Spirit joins with the person. The person now not only has the original evil, flesh-driven personality. Now there is also a second, competing, moral presence, that of the Holy Spirit, forever indwelling within him/her. The person now becomes capable of EITHER good OR evil.
Nearly all Christians speak of the Indwelling Holy Spirit. Many references in the Bible refer to this situation. I Cor. 3:16; Rom. 8:9; Ezek. 36:27; I Cor. 6:19; John 14:17; II Tim. 1:14; I John 2:27; I John 3:24; Rom. 8:10; John 14:20; are some direct references to the fact that Christians carry an Indwelling Holy Spirit. There are many more. This word is used to describe the fact that the Holy Spirit has actually become a permanent part of the person.
From that point on, the person is able to see daily situations in either of two lights, and as a result, CAN respond in a moral, Christian manner. Unfortunately, that does not always happen. People often ignore these ethical, moral, positive thoughts, which were inspired by the presence of the Holy Spirit, and they respond in some selfish or lustful way (as their OWN original nature wants). Long ago, God, with His infinite foresight, knew that this situation would occur. He knew that we would each need the continuing presence of the Holy Spirit, to practice and learn the proper behavior patterns. He knew that a single lesson would be lost on us. He needed to 'install' part of the Holy Spirit in each of us, in order to continuously combat the naturally evil tendencies of our humanness, and in order to continuously teach us proper Christian thoughts and behavior.
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
For my answer, see the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed (without the filioque). I agree with that 100% and we certainly do not ignore the Holy Spirit. Our main point of contention, theologically speaking, with the Roman Catholics is, after all, bound up in His nature.
James
James
NoName said:
(Isaiah 63:10) But they themselves rebelled and made his holy spirit feel hurt. He now was changed into an enemy of theirs; he himself warred against them............ if we work against the holy spirit which God has given us we become out of tune with God
(Psalm 78:40) How often they would rebel against him in the wilderness, They would make him feel hurt in the desert!.............. yes God is hurt if we go against him
(Acts 7:51) "Obstinate men and uncircumcised in hearts and ears, YOU are always resisting the holy spirit; as YOUR forefathers did, so YOU do
NoName
Member
Okay may. Bravo! You told me scriptural verses that said the Holy Spirit could grieve. That's what I said. I'm saying how could something that is simply and "active force" grieve. Active forces don't have feelings. I don't think you will find this in the Bible, either. You'll have to use your brain.
its best to do study to find out what the holy spirit is ,then the accurate understanding of the bible becomes clear , so yes we should use our brains as you mentioned.NoName said:
The Greek pneu´ma (spirit) comes from pne´o, meaning "breathe or blow," and the Hebrew ru´ach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ru´ach and pneu´ma, then, basically mean "breath" but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. (Compare Hab 2:19; Re 13:15.) They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; ones spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and Gods active force, or holy spirit. (Compare Koehler and Baumgartners Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, pp. 877-879; Brown, Driver, and Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, pp. 924-926; Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Friedrich, translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol. VI, pp. 332-451.) All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.
Another Hebrew word, nesha·mah´ (Ge 2:7), also means "breath," but it is more limited in range of meaning than ru´ach. The Greek pno·e´ seems to have a similar limited sense (Ac 17:25) and was used by the Septuagint translators to render nesha·mah´
EnhancedSpirit said:
I kind of see where your coming from, but what's feminine about the Holy Spirit falling upon Samson and him killing a thousand Philistines with the jawbone of an ***? (Judges 15:14-16)
And since this is a "Christian" thread, you all need to be real careful about what you say about the Holy Spirit. Matthew 12:31 makes it very clear that the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven.
Peace
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
NetDoc,NetDoc said:
I wish I had the time to comment on your post in more detail, but I have another commitment and must sign off for the night. I would like to say just a couple of things, though: First, I never meant to imply that I don't believe God has a spirit. I just don't believe that He is an unembodied spirit. If He were a spirit being only (as you believe He is) why would He need to send the Holy Ghost to be your counselor and teacher, to change your heart and fill it with love and to give you the mind of Christ? Why couldn't God the Father simply do all of these things Himself? If you believe it is God the Father who is doing all of these things, what point do you see in there being a Holy Ghost? The Father (being a spirit) and the Son (being corporeal) would have no need of a third person to complete the Godhead. I hope my questions made sense. I'm sorry that I don't have the time to more coherently organize my thoughts tonight.
Kathryn
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
You know Kathryn,
I don't think that anyone but God fully understands this!
We like to think in terms of flesh and blood, but I Corinthians teaches us that we will abandon that "body" for a "spiritual" one:
I Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
55 "Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. NIV
We have been brainwashed to consider the spiritual world as "fake" and the physical world as "real". The converse is true. The physical world is transitory and the spiritual is for ever!
I don't think that anyone but God fully understands this!
We like to think in terms of flesh and blood, but I Corinthians teaches us that we will abandon that "body" for a "spiritual" one:
I Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
55 "Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. NIV
We have been brainwashed to consider the spiritual world as "fake" and the physical world as "real". The converse is true. The physical world is transitory and the spiritual is for ever!
Amen and Amen!!!!NetDoc said:You know Kathryn,
I don't think that anyone but God fully understands this!
We like to think in terms of flesh and blood, but I Corinthians teaches us that we will abandon that "body" for a "spiritual" one:
I Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
55 "Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. NIV
We have been brainwashed to consider the spiritual world as "fake" and the physical world as "real". The converse is true. The physical world is transitory and the spiritual is for ever!
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
Why don't ants understand computers? It's not that God has retreated from us and become unknowable, it's that He's so completely other (as the Creator of all) that we, His creations, cannot truly understand Him. We have no frame of reference, being bound up in the temporal and physical world, for understanding the eternal. That's why we have to rely on revelation, not reason, for our understanding of God. Reason can help to a degree but God remains beyond our understanding.Aqualung said:
James