Thief
Rogue Theologian
So then...as per post #1....
Baptism as required is not really....'required'?
If not, by what merit was his entry into heaven allowed?
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The thief on the cross: The rule or the exception?
- Thread starter Strength & Honor
- Start date
So then...as per post #1....
Baptism as required is not really....'required'?
If not, by what merit was his entry into heaven allowed?
james2ko
Well-Known Member
You've mentioned these concepts several times so I think it is time to address them:
1. The great universal church teaches that Eph 4:8 is a reference to LIMBUS PATRI--meaning the place of limbo occupied by the fathers (Old Testament fathers like Abraham, Moses, David, Samuel, Isaiah, etc.). Their idea asserts that these men were captives trapped in limbo before Christ "ascended" to heaven and made it possible for them to go there, too. In this way, Christ supposedly led "captivity (the fathers) captive" to Himself and took them to heaven. This whole concept is rather illogical when one thinks of righteous men trapped in captivity in some vague spiritual "neverland" or "prison" for thousands of years until Christ could "free" them.
The real meaning here is simply that those who serve sin are captive to it and are its servant or slave (Rom. 6:16-19), until they repent. Christ ascended to heaven, to become our High Priest (Heb. 4:14-16) and intercede for us, so we can receive forgiveness of sins and be offered salvation--and the gift of God"s Holy Spirit (Phil. 2:6; II Cor. 13:5). At conversion, Christians become captives of Christ (instead of sin) and servants (slaves) of righteousness.
Ephesians 4:8 is about conversion, not salvation. Romans 6:17-18 states, "But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness." When this occurs, one is no longer captive to sin--and Satan (II Tim. 2:26)!!!
2. Every human being has a spirit (spirit in man). But nowhere from Genesis to Revelation will you find this spirit with a life of its own outside the body.
3. You must be referring to 2 cor 5:1-8. Read the verses carefully. It merely explains that Christians have two bodies: one physical (the first body), then a spirit body (at the resurrection). Paul was speaking of this spirit body, which comes later at the resurrection.
1. The great universal church teaches that Eph 4:8 is a reference to LIMBUS PATRI--meaning the place of limbo occupied by the fathers (Old Testament fathers like Abraham, Moses, David, Samuel, Isaiah, etc.). Their idea asserts that these men were captives trapped in limbo before Christ "ascended" to heaven and made it possible for them to go there, too. In this way, Christ supposedly led "captivity (the fathers) captive" to Himself and took them to heaven. This whole concept is rather illogical when one thinks of righteous men trapped in captivity in some vague spiritual "neverland" or "prison" for thousands of years until Christ could "free" them.
The real meaning here is simply that those who serve sin are captive to it and are its servant or slave (Rom. 6:16-19), until they repent. Christ ascended to heaven, to become our High Priest (Heb. 4:14-16) and intercede for us, so we can receive forgiveness of sins and be offered salvation--and the gift of God"s Holy Spirit (Phil. 2:6; II Cor. 13:5). At conversion, Christians become captives of Christ (instead of sin) and servants (slaves) of righteousness.
Ephesians 4:8 is about conversion, not salvation. Romans 6:17-18 states, "But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart Being then made free from sin, you became the servants of righteousness." When this occurs, one is no longer captive to sin--and Satan (II Tim. 2:26)!!!
2. Every human being has a spirit (spirit in man). But nowhere from Genesis to Revelation will you find this spirit with a life of its own outside the body.
3. You must be referring to 2 cor 5:1-8. Read the verses carefully. It merely explains that Christians have two bodies: one physical (the first body), then a spirit body (at the resurrection). Paul was speaking of this spirit body, which comes later at the resurrection.
The paradise of Eden was offered to Adam and Eve.
As long as obedient they could remain on earth forever.
Jesus went to hell not a heavenly paradise the day they died. -Acts 2vs27,31
If all go to heaven immediately upon death then how do you explain 1st Thess 4vs13-16 ?
How could Jesus 'brothers' be 'asleep in death' if already resurrected ?
True the dead in Christ rise first as verse 16 concludes and Rev. 20v6 agrees.
First, implies more to follow. Who are the more to follow since those dead in Christ rise first ?
RE: 2nd Cor. 5vs1-8
But who are the two bodies for?
Paul, at 2nd Cor 1v1, is addressing those that would be holy ones [saints] that are part of the first resurrection. -Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10; 14v3,4.
Jesus 'brothers' [1st Cor 15v50; Matt 25v40] are resurrected to heavenly life.
All that lived before Jesus lived according to John [3v13] did not ascend to heaven.
They will have an earthly resurrection.
The 'sheep' of Matt [25v32] are also not considered as those 'brothers' of verse 40,
rather they gain everlasting life on earth.
But who are the two bodies for?
Paul, at 2nd Cor 1v1, is addressing those that would be holy ones [saints] that are part of the first resurrection. -Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10; 14v3,4.
Jesus 'brothers' [1st Cor 15v50; Matt 25v40] are resurrected to heavenly life.
All that lived before Jesus lived according to John [3v13] did not ascend to heaven.
They will have an earthly resurrection.
The 'sheep' of Matt [25v32] are also not considered as those 'brothers' of verse 40,
rather they gain everlasting life on earth.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
I do not believe that was Samuel's spirit but a demonic entity. In verse 6 it states:
1Sa 28:6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets.
God didn't answer Saul through the traditional "Godly" means. Instead He used a witch who called up a demon spirit, which Saul "PERCEIVED" (thought) to be Samuel (vs 14). There's a similar account in 1 Ki 22:20-22 where God used a demon spirit to influence King Ahab's prophets to deceive him. At times, God uses demon spirits to accomplish His sovereign will. This was certainly the case with King Saul's encounter.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
What I believe is that everyone who has trusted Christ has been baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ. As 1 Cor. 12:13 says:
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
No direct connection that placing one's trust kicks of the Spirit's baptism into the body of Christ, but it does fit better with Acts 2:38, since one receives the Holy Spirit in conjunstion with baptism. It SAYS nothing about obedience. Seriously, that's a protestant innovation.
Its something they do. So, I believe it is a work. Scripture?
If we say we "did our part" by getting baptized, performing other sacraments, rituals, works, etc., then it is not truly a free gift and we are taking some of the credit or glory. Romans 10:9-10 Do you say confessing with our mouth Jesus is Lord, is not "our part"? or that it doesn't save?
What scriptures say God gets glory when we are baptized? I meant to rewrite that, but couldn't get back in due to mobile technology troubles. It should have read "Scriptures give God all the glory in baptism" 1 Corinthians 1:13. Paul does not accept the glory and redirects it to where it belongs - Christ.
Will respond to your other post in the next few days. The one about believe.
Shermana
Heretic
I disagree, I think that was truly Samuel's soul and that the punishment was for calling up the spirits of the dead, which the Israelites are commanded not to. You're welcome to your opinion, and I agree with much of what you say, but even these "Demon spirits" are "Spirits of the dead'. The commandment is specifically to not speak to "Spirits of the dead", there'd be no commandment if they didn't exist. This is also somewhat addressed in the Apocrypha, which I believe as Inspired.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Ok I'll respect that. Would you agree with this statement: if faith without works is dead then works without faith is also dead?
Shermana
Heretic
Yes, doing works without Faith is generally only for social protocol, devoid of any meaning.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Then we can also conclude the spirit without the body is also "dead". Thus confirming the spirit was not Samuel's "spirit" but a demonic entity, right?
Shermana
Heretic
That I will not agree with you on, but I think is a difference in context.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
It's a pretty straight forward analogy illustrating the spirit-body relationship. I was also in your shoes at one point. Thinking the soul (human spirit) was coherent outside the body. It's one of those unequivocal beliefs that is taken for granted by many. It's off topic. Perhaps we can discuss it some time.
The Bible does Not equate soul with human spirit.
Adam became a living soul [not living spirit] -Gen 2v7.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
You're right it doesn't. The "soul" is an interdependent combination of the "spirit in man" and the physical body--hence the need for a resurrection. If you noticed, I was merely pointing out my former belief.
Some think the 'spirit in man' is an indestructible person.
I believe when Adam died all of Adam died. The spark of life [spirit] went out just like a light bulb goes out when disconnected from its power supply or source. Goes dead out.
The immortal are death proof and do not need a resurrection anywhere to heaven or on earth. God is immortal and grants to Jesus to have life within.
-John 5v26.
According to John [3v13] all that died before Jesus died will have a physical resurrection. Those called to heavenly life [ones that died after Jesus' death opened up the way to heaven] will have a resurrection in a spirit body which is different from the 'spirit in man' or spark of life. -Rev 20v6; 1st Cor chap. 15.
They 'put on' immortality not pull out of oneself immortality.
Daniel looked forward to a physical resurrection -[Dan 12vs2,13]
That will be during Jesus 100-year reign over earth.
Even David will awaken from death's long sleep. -[Acts 2v34; 13v36]
Last but not least, those humble 'sheep-like' people alive on earth at the time of Matthew [25vs31,32] can remain alive on earth right into the start of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth. Whereas, Jesus 'brothers' of verse 40 will be resurrected to heavenly life. -1st Cor 15v50
james2ko
Well-Known Member
I've addressed all of this before. I find it counter productive repeating myself to the same member. In addition, it is off topic.
waitasec
Veteran Member
so those who are charitable without the right religious faith might as well not help the needy...
is that what you mean?
waitasec
Veteran Member
Yeah..and apparently it's made you very dizzy...
Let's see if we can untangle this twisted verbage:
"each gospel was written for a specific audience from 4 different perspectives. they were not meant to be read as a complete account.." Waaala...much better
Rise up...Let's go---,where? To meet His betrayer or fate. According to Mark and Luke, that is precisely what happened which indicates He accepted His situation. No contradiction.
Really? All I see is a different perspective for the same account with the same Jesus..BTW, this is way off topic. If you want to continue discussing alleged contradictions, start a thread.
:
thank you for clarifying...
yes, 4 different accounts for 4 different audiences...
in one account jesus is scared.
in another he knows what's going to happen...
i find it funny now that this argument goes into a direction you are not comfortable it's all of a sudden off topic.