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The thief on the cross: The rule or the exception?

Shermana

Heretic
That's not what I said. If you study what Gospel means in the scriptures you will find those three meanings.

Oh it isn't? What did you mean the first time when you said Jesus was preaching to Jews as if that means you don't have to listen to what he said?

If YOU study what Gospel means in Scriptures you will find what these "meanings" of what I'm saying. Telling me to go study the Gospels is not a substitute answer.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
Oh it isn't? What did you mean the first time when you said Jesus was preaching to Jews as if that means you don't have to listen to what he said?

If YOU study what Gospel means in Scriptures you will find what these "meanings" of what I'm saying. Telling me to go study the Gospels is not a substitute answer.
I do listen to what he said and I understand it in light of other scripture under the New Covenant and the Age of Grace, or Church Age we are now in. I meant research the meaning of the word Gospel on the net and see what it says.
 

Shermana

Heretic
I do listen to what he said and I understand it in light of other scripture under the New Covenant and the Age of Grace, or Church Age we are now in. I meant research the meaning of the word Gospel on the net and see what it says.

Obviously not, you dodged the question about the hand chopping three times. Maybe I should dig for the quote where you specifically said you don't have to listen to Jesus to be saved as long as you claim to "believe in" him.

If you are implying that I haven't researched what your side has to say, thanks for the tip. \

Have you tried reading what the Torah obedient websites have to say? Have you researched 7th day adventist arguments before?

"Church age" sounds like some leftover of the Harold Camping group, were you part of the May 21 btw? While I agree we are in the "Messianic Age", your idea of "Church Age" is completely against what even Revelation says the time will be like.

Do you know what "Church" actually means? It doesn't just mean "assembly". The implication is "Select chosen ones" or literally "Called out ones". What is a "Church age"? Does every single person who claims to believe one of these "Called out ones" no matter what sect or denomination or practice?
 
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e.r.m.

Church of Christ
What I high lighted, is what I hoped you would bring back.
It's that item in particular that most people overlook.
The baptism He spoke of is not a ritual.
Water rituals save no one.

As for His authority.....that's a different topic.

As for that thief....it was his last moment realization....his faith...
his last breath....that made all the difference.

Sorry I missed what you were after.

To say that water rituals save no one because Jesus's reference was not a water ritual, is a gross generalization. That comment Jesus made certainly does not override his specific instructions in Mark 16:16. The thief on the cross defense is a common gross generalization. The Bible is more specific than that. Hebrews 9:16-18, 28 show us that the new covenant did not begin until after Jesus's death. Jesus conversation with the thief occurred before Jesus's death, during which time Jesus had authority on earth to forgive the sins (Luke 5:24) of the thief on the cross, the parylitic, the sinful woman who washed Jesus's feet with her hair, etc. The thief on the cross is for some reason the only one that people bring up. But Jesus did leave instructions for people's salvation in the new covenant after His death and ressurection Mark 16:16. Peter was there when Mark 16:16 was spoken and later spoke the words in Acts 2:38. When people 'casually' point out a seeming contradiction without much detail unless asked and generalize that exception to EVERYONE!, that's often human nature saying 'I don't want to believe that.' When Jesus told Peter the manner in which Peter would be lead to his death, Peter's response was:

(NASB)John 21:21 So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!" The whole account (John 21:18-22).

Even Peter did it, it's just human nature to look for the exception to a rule that we don't like. Now of course this is a general phenomenon, I am not saying this is you. But you're going have to make a stronger case than this. Jesus & Peter established the purpose for water baptism Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 pretty outright.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Sorry I missed what you were after.

To say that water rituals save no one because Jesus's reference was not a water ritual, is a gross generalization. That comment Jesus made certainly does not override his specific instructions in Mark 16:16. The thief on the cross defense is a common gross generalization. The Bible is more specific than that. Hebrews 9:16-18, 28 show us that the new covenant did not begin until after Jesus's death. Jesus conversation with the thief occurred before Jesus's death, during which time Jesus had authority on earth to forgive the sins (Luke 5:24) of the thief on the cross, the parylitic, the sinful woman who washed Jesus's feet with her hair, etc. The thief on the cross is for some reason the only one that people bring up. But Jesus did leave instructions for people's salvation in the new covenant after His death and ressurection Mark 16:16. Peter was there when Mark 16:16 was spoken and later spoke the words in Acts 2:38. When people 'casually' point out a seeming contradiction without much detail unless asked and generalize that exception to EVERYONE!, that's often human nature saying 'I don't want to believe that.' When Jesus told Peter the manner in which Peter would be lead to his death, Peter's response was:

(NASB)John 21:21 So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!" The whole account (John 21:18-22).

Even Peter did it, it's just human nature to look for the exception to a rule that we don't like. Now of course this is a general phenomenon, I am not saying this is you. But you're going have to make a stronger case than this. Jesus & Peter established the purpose for water baptism Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 pretty outright.

Are you not equating the forgiveness of sin to acceptance in heaven?
They are not the same thing.

The thief is assumed? a sinner.
He hung on a cross without blame?
Had he been baptized....what good was a water ritual to him?
Had he not regressed?
Still, there is strong indication his sinful life was no longer held against him.
Baptism as a saving grace?
I think not.

Forgiving sin is not that actual target here.
Entry into heaven without the ritual...is.

Would you argue?...the thief failed?
If not then baptism is not the saving grace.

Would you then say the words of the Carpenter are the tipping point?
I think not.

The thief had a change come over him as his last breath come near.
It was that change the Carpenter did perceive, followed by the words He did pronounce....
'....you will walk we Me in paradise.....'

Another note....
Forgiving sin requires no authority.
 
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james2ko

Well-Known Member
Believe and be saved is all that is required. Baptism follows as an act of obedience.

1. In Mat 25, Christ illustrates the need to include work as a condition for salvation. If belief was all that is required for salvation, why did Christ condemn the servant who did no work with the "gift" given to him? Notice how Christ would have been satisfied with even a little work (vs 27)....Instead, he was labeled as a "wicked and lazy" servant (vs 26) whom, by all indications, lost his salvation (vs 30; Luk 19:27).

There are not only many verses, but whole chapters which discuss it, Like Romans 4.5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.Rom. 4 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2. I believe the disagreement between us is perpetuated by our different views on the definition of salvation: I agree the salvation process is God’s gift by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Titus 3:5; 2 Corinthians 2:15; Romans 5:10). We cannot earn it by any means. God, through His divine will, (Jn 6:44) simply grants us the opportunity. I liken it to God giving us a conditional gift certificate to eternal life. Even though it is a gift, there are some conditions and actions [works] one must take into consideration in order to benefit from the gift. The salvation process is a lifetime endeavor that can be lost (Heb 6:4-6; 10:26). It is not a "once saved always saved" opportunity. Simply holding on to the "gift certificate" is of no benefit. This is what the wicked and lazy servant did.

After the gift grace--through faith--has been granted. One must repent and be baptized (necessary conditions for the continuation of the process). At this point, God justifies us from our past sins. We then begin an ongoing process of "being saved" (Act 2:47; 1Co 1:18; 2Co 2:15) as we grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ (2 Peter 3:18; Eph 4:15; Col 1:10) Jesus and the Apostles taught the salvation process would be difficult (Matt 7:14); full of trials, hardships, and tribulation (Acts 14:22).

Those involved in the process would have been tried and tested in this life and have to endure and overcome (Matt 10:22). This all takes work!! For those who are successful, salvation will be complete at the first resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). For those who are unsuccessful, (and perform no work) the certificate will not only be taken away and given to someone worthy, but they will also be destroyed----lose their salvation!!! (Luk 19:27: Mat 25:46). This is undeniable proof that makes our works conditional to the salvation process!!

Eph. 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

3. God's grace is certainly "one" condition to salvation. Other passages indicate there are others.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, Titus 3

4. I wonder why you didn't post the rest of the passage? ;)

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;​

Again, he was teaching the disciples one, spread the gospel, and two to make disciples. Those who have truly trusted Christ and have been saved by that trust will obey him in baptism as a result, not a condition.

Mat 28:19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.​

5. Nowhere in this passage is baptism indicated solely as a result. But Mar 16:16 and 1 Pet 3:21 (which you have yet to address) irrefutably renders it as a condition to salvation:

Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

1Pe 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,​

But some, like the thief, or a deathbed convert, who believed, is saved although they had no time to do works. This is why the thief went to Paradise.

6. This was disputed way back in post #63

Right. If a man SAY he has faith, but then won't get baptized, we question the faith.

7. Then he is missing at least one of the conditions for salvation.

Especially in that day when being baptized, which associated you with believers in Christ could mean terrible persecution, if someone would not take that step of obedience they concluded, rightfully, that they hadn't actually placed their complete trust in Christ even if they believed the facts of the death and resurrection were true, they would not rely on Christ alone for salvation and would end up going back under the law to try to stablish their own righteousness.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.​

8. James illustrates the conditional relationship that exists between faith [belief] and works through an analogy. He compares the body to faith and the spirit to works. The first part of the verse explains how the body cannot live without the spirit, therefore making a living body conditional--not a consequence or a result of-- of having a spirit. He continues by establishing the same relationship between works and faith further driving home the point that works are also a condition-not only consequence of living faith [belief]!! Can it be any more plain?
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
1. In Mat 25, Christ illustrates the need to include work as a condition for salvation. If belief was all that is required for salvation, why did Christ condemn the servant who did no work with the "gift" given to him? Notice how Christ would have been satisfied with even a little work (vs 27)....Instead, he was labeled as a "wicked and lazy" servant (vs 26) whom, by all indications, lost his salvation (vs 30; Luk 19:27).
I do not believe one can lose their salvation, as it is a free gift. I believe one who has been saved will do some work, sometime, somewhere, somehow. This servant was never saved, imo.

2. I believe the disagreement between us is perpetuated by our different views on the definition of salvation: I agree the salvation process is God’s gift by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Titus 3:5; 2 Corinthians 2:15; Romans 5:10). We cannot earn it by any means. God, through His divine will, (Jn 6:44) simply grants us the opportunity. I liken it to God giving us a conditional gift certificate to eternal life. Even though it is a gift, there are some conditions and actions [works] one must take into consideration in order to benefit from the gift. The salvation process is a lifetime endeavor that can be lost (Heb 6:4-6; 10:26). It is not a "once saved always saved" opportunity. Simply holding on to the "gift certificate" is of no benefit. This is what the wicked and lazy servant did.
We will have to disagree, I believe when one believes in Christ, at that moment they are granted eternal life. They have the life and the eternal and will never be cast out or forsaken or come back into condemnation. How much work must one do before they have earned salvation? I will rest in the finished work of Christ. Only then will any effective works result.

After the gift grace--through faith--has been granted. One must repent and be baptized (necessary conditions for the continuation of the process). At this point, God justifies us from our past sins. We then begin an ongoing process of "being saved" (Act 2:47; 1Co 1:18; 2Co 2:15) as we grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ (2 Peter 3:18; Eph 4:15; Col 1:10) Jesus and the Apostles taught the salvation process would be difficult (Matt 7:14); full of trials, hardships, and tribulation (Acts 14:22).

Those involved in the process would have been tried and tested in this life and have to endure and overcome (Matt 10:22). This all takes work!! For those who are successful, salvation will be complete at the first resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). For those who are unsuccessful, (and perform no work) the certificate will not only be taken away and given to someone worthy, but they will also be destroyed----lose their salvation!!! (Luk 19:27: Mat 25:46). This is undeniable proof that makes our works conditional to the salvation process!!
Again salvation is a gift which Romans 11:29 says God does not take back. I believe you are confusing sanctification with salvation. Sanctification is both an event and a process, while salvation is a one time event.

3. God's grace is certainly "one" condition to salvation. Other passages indicate there are others.
Grace is how we are saved, period. Grace is undeserved and unmerited favor. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ UNTO good works. Works come as a result, they are not a condition, as the Bible clearly teaches.

4. I wonder why you didn't post the rest of the passage? ;)
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Mat 28:19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.​
Er, the washing of regeneration is not baptism, it is the new birth. Jesus said when we baptize we make disciples, not believers.

Why didn't YOU post the rest of the passage? And read the whole passage in its context?

he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

First, it says its NOT BY WORKS that we have done, but by his mercy HE saved US. Next it says that those who HAVE been justified by faith in Christ, that those who HAVE BELIEVED should do good works which are good and profitable. It says we are saved, not by what we do but after we have believed, then good works are good and profitable. Read it in context.
5. Nowhere in this passage is baptism indicated solely as a result. But Mar 16:16 and 1 Pet 3:21 (which you have yet to address) irrefutably renders it as a condition to salvation:
Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

1Pe 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,​
I did address those earlier. One must compare scripture with scripture and look at all the teachings on salvation together. Salvation is a free gift, can't be earned, not by ANY works, we believe and are saved, then are baptized in obedience. That is the clear pattern and teaching of the New Testament.

6. This was disputed way back in post #63
You forget, when we are caught up, we shall be changed and this corrupt (sinful) shall put on incorruption (sinless). The Thief or a deathbed convert will be transformed and be sinless.

7. Then he is missing at least one of the conditions for salvation.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Again, he is not saying it is a condition. He is just saying if a man SAY he has faith and has no works as a result, he does not have saving faith. He may say he believes Christ died and rose again, but he has not placed his full trust in him for salvation, he just believes its true, like the devils.

8. James illustrates the conditional relationship that exists between faith [belief] and works through an analogy. He compares the body to faith and the spirit to works. The first part of the verse explains how the body cannot live without the spirit, therefore making a living body conditional--not a consequence or a result of-- of having a spirit. He continues by establishing the same relationship between works and faith further driving home the point that works are also a condition-not only consequence of living faith [belief]!! Can it be any more plain?
I have no argument with that, except I don't call works a condition. If a person has saving faith, they will have works, and if they don't have saving faith, they won't have works. And that is plain. Even a deathbed convert may produce fruit, for the angels will rejoice and praising God is a fruit, and those who see it will praise God and they may even see the change in countenance of the dying one. And who knows who else will hear of it and trust Christ and be forever saved?
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
I do not believe one can lose their salvation, as it is a free gift. I believe one who has been saved will do some work, sometime, somewhere, somehow. This servant was never saved, imo.

We will have to disagree, I believe when one believes in Christ, at that moment they are granted eternal life. They have the life and the eternal and will never be cast out or forsaken or come back into condemnation. How much work must one do before they have earned salvation? I will rest in the finished work of Christ. Only then will any effective works result.

Again salvation is a gift which Romans 11:29 says God does not take back. I believe you are confusing sanctification with salvation. Sanctification is both an event and a process, while salvation is a one time event.

Grace is how we are saved, period. Grace is undeserved and unmerited favor. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ UNTO good works. Works come as a result, they are not a condition, as the Bible clearly teaches.


Er, the washing of regeneration is not baptism, it is the new birth. Jesus said when we baptize we make disciples, not believers.

Why didn't YOU post the rest of the passage? And read the whole passage in its context?

he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

First, it says its NOT BY WORKS that we have done, but by his mercy HE saved US. Next it says that those who HAVE been justified by faith in Christ, that those who HAVE BELIEVED should do good works which are good and profitable. It says we are saved, not by what we do but after we have believed, then good works are good and profitable. Read it in context.
I did address those earlier. One must compare scripture with scripture and look at all the teachings on salvation together. Salvation is a free gift, can't be earned, not by ANY works, we believe and are saved, then are baptized in obedience. That is the clear pattern and teaching of the New Testament.

You forget, when we are caught up, we shall be changed and this corrupt (sinful) shall put on incorruption (sinless). The Thief or a deathbed convert will be transformed and be sinless.

Again, he is not saying it is a condition. He is just saying if a man SAY he has faith and has no works as a result, he does not have saving faith. He may say he believes Christ died and rose again, but he has not placed his full trust in him for salvation, he just believes its true, like the devils.

I have no argument with that, except I don't call works a condition. If a person has saving faith, they will have works, and if they don't have saving faith, they won't have works. And that is plain. Even a deathbed convert may produce fruit, for the angels will rejoice and praising God is a fruit, and those who see it will praise God and they may even see the change in countenance of the dying one. And who knows who else will hear of it and trust Christ and be forever saved?

Romans 11:22 - How can one be cut off who never was?
And
Is there a scripture for the unlosableness of salvation? - Yes, I made up a word.
 
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javajo

Well-Known Member
Romans 11:22 - How can one be cut off who never was?
He was speaking to the Romans (really all gentiles) as a whole. Those who do not believe, whether Jew or Greek will not have eternal life. As the following verse says:

23 If the people of Israel do not continue in their unbelief, they will again be joined to the tree. God is able to join them to the tree again.

Hebrews says this as well:

3:18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
4:2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, 6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
Is there a scripture for the unlosableness of salvation? - Yes, I made up a word.
Lol! :) I call it the Doctrine of the Eternal Security of the Believer. Yes, there are many, many verses. And not only for Eternal Security, but also for the Assurance of Believers. Since I was in Hebrews, I will give one from there and then some others. Hebrews also has some passages that some believe supports that salvation can be lost, but I don't view them in that light. Ok then:

By that one sacrifice he (Jesus) has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:14

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 6:37

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:28-29

Ok, that's enough for now. I like the last one, it is a three-fold cord: Jesus gives us eternal life, we shall never perish, and nothing can take us out of his hand. The word man is in italics in the KJV, so it really means nothing can pluck us out, like Romans 8 says, nothing from Heaven to Hell can separate us from the love of Christ. The "in no wise" in the Greek is five negatives, so he will never, no never, no never cast out one who has trusted in him for eternal life. Notice we have life and we have the eternal, or its not eternal life.

Now for Assurance:

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) Hebrews 10:19,22-23
In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Eph. 3:12

for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 2 Timothy 1:12b
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
I do not believe one can lose their salvation, as it is a free gift. I believe one who has been saved will do some work, sometime, somewhere, somehow. This servant was never saved, imo.

1. The bible states had he done even a little work while the Master was gone, he would have been saved like the other two, at the Master's return ( Mt 25:27). A clear indication of a conditional process. Getting anything else out of the passage would be pure speculative at best.

We will have to disagree, I believe when one believes in Christ, at that moment they are granted eternal life. They have the life and the eternal and will never be cast out or forsaken or come back into condemnation. How much work must one do before they have earned salvation? I will rest in the finished work of Christ. Only then will any effective works result.

2. How do you reconcile the salvation-by-faith alone concept with the parables of the sheep and goats, minas, talents?

Again salvation is a gift which Romans 11:29 says God does not take back. I believe you are confusing sanctification with salvation. Sanctification is both an event and a process, while salvation is a one time event.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.​

3. Read the context. God is determined to save ancient Israel and will not withdraw His calling or His gift of grace (opportunity for salvation) from them or from anyone for that matter (Act 10:34). Notice what He states in Rom 11:25: For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.. Ancient Israel was blinded so they never really got their opportunity to know their Savior--the only way to salvation (Act 4:12). But God's calling and grace (gift certificate) will not be withheld from them. It will be given to them in the future. In a physical resurrection (Eze 37; Rev 20:5;11-12). The same resurrection the thief and billions of others who did not get a fair opportunity to know Christ will come up in!!!

In addition, you addressed none of the verses in my reply. That is an indication of selective exegesis.

Grace is how we are saved, period. Grace is undeserved and unmerited favor. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ UNTO good works. Works come as a result, they are not a condition, as the Bible clearly teaches.

4. If the bible taught it..I would believe it..

Er, the washing of regeneration is not baptism, it is the new birth. Jesus said when we baptize we make disciples, not believers.Why didn't YOU post the rest of the passage? And read the whole passage in its context?

5. Huh??? I did post both passages and always consider the context--as many here can affirm. Now you are resorting to straw man tactics. That's never a good sign.

he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

6. Justification is only a condition of our salvation--not salvation in and of itself as many verses indicate.
idid address those earlier. One must compare scripture with scripture and look at all the teachings on salvation together. Salvation is a free gift, can't be earned, not by ANY works, we believe and are saved, then are baptized in obedience. That is the clear pattern and teaching of the New Testament.

7. You didn't address it--some website did. What I find suspect is that out of the 7 baptism articles, not one reference is made to the book of James?
hmmm....I "wonders" why...;)

You forget, when we are caught up, we shall be changed and this corrupt (sinful) shall put on incorruption (sinless). The Thief or a deathbed convert will be transformed and be sinless.

Again, he is not saying it is a condition. He is just saying if a man SAY he has faith and has no works as a result, he does not have saving faith. He may say he believes Christ died and rose again, but he has not placed his full trust in him for salvation, he just believes its true, like the devils.

I have no argument with that, except I don't call works a condition. If a person has saving faith, they will have works, and if they don't have saving faith, they won't have works. And that is plain. Even a deathbed convert may produce fruit, for the angels will rejoice and praising God is a fruit, and those who see it will praise God and they may even see the change in countenance of the dying one. And who knows who else will hear of it and trust Christ and be forever saved?

8. I see you are basically repeating yourself. A sign for me to exit the discussion. All I have to say is that I hope your answers to Christ in the judgment are better than the ones you've given here. Until next time..
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
when one account says both thieves are hurling insults at jesus and another account says only one... seems to me you are grasping at straws by saying, 'well, he had a change of heart' and then in one account he is pretty much quiet and only says "why have you forsaken me?" while another account says "today you will be with me in paradise" i think my logic isn't based on wishful thinking it's based a reason...that these are two conflicting accounts.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
are you saying i'm making it up?

No. What I am saying is when you get refuted you create pseudo arguments that are quite amusing..You said this:

even if that were the case the narrative is different though...in this scene jesus is saying, in essence...i know what is going to happen then he turns around and asks god why he is being forsaken...:shrug:
I presented evidence on how the paradise comment could have been made before the obviously lamentable forsaken comment. To which you replied:

saying “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”is not lamenting about the present....
It is obvious the paradise comment is not the lamentable one because I indicated that was a future promise. That leaves us with the forsaken comment which was made in the present tense. You twisted the two to create confusion. You should already know that is not going to work with me ;)
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
Okay, I am not going to argue with you, I hope you are able to do enough works to earn your salvation. I will leave with you with this:

4 But the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared. 5 He saved us. It wasn't because of the good things we had done. It was because of his mercy. He saved us by washing away our sins. We were born again. The Holy Spirit gave us new life. 6 God poured out the Spirit on us freely because of what Jesus Christ our Savior has done. 7 His grace made us right with God. 6 God poured out the Spirit on us freely because of what Jesus Christ our Savior has done. 7 His grace made us right with God. So now we have received the hope of eternal life as God's children. 8 You can trust that saying. Those things are important. Treat them that way. Then those who have trusted in God will be careful to commit themselves to doing what is good. Those things are excellent. They are for the good of everyone. Titus 3

8 God's grace has saved you because of your faith in Christ. Your salvation doesn't come from anything you do. It is God's gift. 9 It is not based on anything you have done. No one can brag about earning it. 10 God made us. He created us to belong to Christ Jesus. Now we can do good things. Long ago God prepared them for us to do. Ephesians 2

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you. Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law? Or did you receive the Spirit by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? You began with the Holy Spirit.
Are you now trying to complete God's work in you by your own strength? Galatians 3

16Knowing that a man is
not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2

21 But now
God has shown us how to become right with him. The Law and the Prophets give witness to this. It has nothing to do with obeying the law. 22 We are made right with God by putting our faith in Jesus Christ. That happens to all who believe. It is no different for the Jews than for anyone else. 23 Everyone has sinned. No one measures up to God's glory. 24 The free gift of God's grace makes all of us right with him. Christ Jesus paid the price to set us free. 25 God gave him as a sacrifice to pay for sins. So he forgives the sins of those who have faith in his blood. He also made right with himself those who believe in Jesus. 27 So who can brag? No one! Are people saved by obeying the law? Not at all! They are saved because of their faith. 28 We firmly believe that people are made right with God because of their faith. They are not saved by obeying the law. Romans 3

1 What should we say about those things? What did our father Abraham discover about being
right with God? 2 Did he become right with God because of something he did? If so, he could brag about it. But he couldn't brag to God. 3 What do we find in Scripture? It says, "Abraham believed God. God accepted Abraham's faith, and so his faith made him right with God."—(Genesis 15:6) 4 When a man works, his pay is not considered a gift. It is owed to him. 5 But things are different with God. He makes evil people right with himself. If people trust in him, their faith is accepted even though they do not work. Their faith makes them right with God.
6 King David says the same thing. He tells us how blessed some people are. God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do anything in return.
Romans 4

10 We have been made holy by what God wanted.
We have been made holy because Jesus Christ offered his body once and for all time. 12Jesus our priest offered one sacrifice for sins for all time. Then he sat down at the right hand of God. 14 By that one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10
 
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james2ko

Well-Known Member
when one account says both thieves are hurling insults at jesus and another account says only one... seems to me you are grasping at straws by saying, 'well, he had a change of heart' and then in one account he is pretty much quiet and only says "why have you forsaken me?" while another account says "today you will be with me in paradise" i think my logic isn't based on wishful thinking it's based a reason...that these are two conflicting accounts.

I love your tenacity. Even after you get refuted you continue your rhetoric.:D Anyway, I have to get ready for an appointment with a chick named Irene.
 
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