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Ralph Griffith

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
What are some specific problems with his translations? I know they have a bad reputation among most Hindus, but as I cannot get my hands on any other unabridged copy of the Rig Veda, I'd like to know exactly what the problem is. (And if there are alternatives to his translations.)
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Bumping this two-and-a-half year OP that never received an answer. ^_^
 

kaisersose

Active Member
Nothing.

His translation closely followed Max Mueller's interpretation (based on the 14th century Sayana (Advaitin) interpretation) which did not go well with Indian patriots who like to imagine Indian scriptures are much older than recognized by Academia. For some inexplicable reason, it is very important for a section of Indians to assign very old dates to the Rig Veda. It almost sounds like a 6000 year old Rig Veda has higher value than a 4000 year old Rig Veda - though no reason is provided for such a position. They see conspiracy theories and bias behind all scripture dates that are not several thousands of years old.

IMO, Mueller and Griffith did a decent and fair job with the information available to them during their time. As of 2011, the Rig-Veda date still remains pretty much the same as Mueller's, proving his dates were not fanciful, as claimed by critics.
 
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It is best to stop relying on the western translations, who does not have even have prerequiste of interpreting the VEDAS. Western scholars with their half baked knowledge of Sanskrit mistransliterated these interpretations since they lacked the pre-requisite understanding of Shiksha (Phonetics), Vyakarana (Grammar), Nirukta (Philology), Nighantu (Vocabulary), Chhanda (Prosody), Jyotish (Astronomy), Kalpa and so on that are critical for correct interpretation of the Vedas. Western translations are just blind reproduction of works of Max Muller, Griffith, Wilson, Williams and other indologists on Vedas and Vedic language.

Santana Dharma has no founders, it only has discoverers. Hence, it is hard to date something that is eternal. Vedas are eternal knowledge. Let me give you an example. The way a physical scientist in any place or any time in the physical world can discover gravity, likewise the spiritual scientist or a Rishi discovers this eternal religion. Vedas are called Shruti, (a section of revealed scriptures in Hinduism) also means that which is heard. So, Vedas were never supposed to be written down. They were passed on orally and later compiled by Sage Ved Vyasa. I can agree that Vedas are written down recently but their true nature is ultimately not just the 4 books.
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
It is best to stop relying on the western translations, who does not have even have prerequiste of interpreting the VEDAS. Western scholars with their half baked knowledge of Sanskrit mistransliterated these interpretations since they lacked the pre-requisite understanding of Shiksha (Phonetics), Vyakarana (Grammar), Nirukta (Philology), Nighantu (Vocabulary), Chhanda (Prosody), Jyotish (Astronomy), Kalpa and so on that are critical for correct interpretation of the Vedas. Western translations are just blind reproduction of works of Max Muller, Griffith, Wilson, Williams and other indologists on Vedas and Vedic language.

Santana Dharma has no founders, it only has discoverers. Hence, it is hard to date something that is eternal. Vedas are eternal knowledge. Let me give you an example. The way a physical scientist in any place or any time in the physical world can discover gravity, likewise the spiritual scientist or a Rishi discovers this eternal religion. Vedas are called Shruti, (a section of revealed scriptures in Hinduism) also means that which is heard. So, Vedas were never supposed to be written down. They were passed on orally and later compiled by Sage Ved Vyasa. I can agree that Vedas are written down recently but their true nature is ultimately not just the 4 books.

I already know all that. I'm asking for specific errors in translation, if any actually exist. Like it or not, Western translations are the only unabridged translations of the Vedas into English.
 

TTCUSM

Member
I already know all that. I'm asking for specific errors in translation, if any actually exist. Like it or not, Western translations are the only unabridged translations of the Vedas into English.

Riverwolf,

Please see this thread. It contains a statement by Max Muller where he basically admits that he had difficulty translating a certain Vedic verse.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Riverwolf,

Please see this thread. It contains a statement by Max Muller where he basically admits that he had difficulty translating a certain Vedic verse.

That's Muller, not Griffith. Nevertheless, reminding me of that thread has shed light on the fact that Western Indologists clearly didn't entirely know what they were doing (though I haven't seen much in the way of convincing evidence that Muller deliberately was mistranslating the Vedas; a single letter could have been forged.)
 

kaisersose

Active Member
It is best to stop relying on the western translations, who does not have even have prerequiste of interpreting the VEDAS. Western scholars with their half baked knowledge of Sanskrit mistransliterated these interpretations since they lacked the pre-requisite understanding of Shiksha (Phonetics), Vyakarana (Grammar), Nirukta (Philology), Nighantu (Vocabulary), Chhanda (Prosody), Jyotish (Astronomy), Kalpa and so on that are critical for correct interpretation of the Vedas.

And what is the correct interpretation of the Veda? There are at least 22 known Vedanta schools each with a different interpretation the Veda. This was long before Europeans took interest in the Veda, long before the first translation.

As I said earlier, Griffith followed Mueller who followed Sayana's interpretation. Besides some accusations on Mueller from Hindutva Indians for dating the Rig-Veda "too recently" for their liking, I have not seen any evidence against the quality of his work.

Santana Dharma has no founders, it only has discoverers. Hence, it is hard to date something that is eternal. Vedas are eternal knowledge. Let me give you an example. The way a physical scientist in any place or any time in the physical world can discover gravity, likewise the spiritual scientist or a Rishi discovers this eternal religion. Vedas are called Shruti, (a section of revealed scriptures in Hinduism) also means that which is heard. So, Vedas were never supposed to be written down. They were passed on orally and later compiled by Sage Ved Vyasa. I can agree that Vedas are written down recently but their true nature is ultimately not just the 4 books.

Unfortunately, this is a naive interpretation. Please read Dasgupta's account of Mimamsa on when and how the "eternal" Veda concept took root.

You are also contradicting yourself. Discovered religion and religion with founder makes no difference to your position. Though Mohamed was a founder, his God Allah is eternal.
 
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Nothing.

His translation closely followed Max Mueller's interpretation (based on the 14th century Sayana (Advaitin) interpretation) which did not go well with Indian patriots who like to imagine Indian scriptures are much older than recognized by Academia. For some inexplicable reason, it is very important for a section of Indians to assign very old dates to the Rig Veda. It almost sounds like a 6000 year old Rig Veda has higher value than a 4000 year old Rig Veda - though no reason is provided for such a position. They see conspiracy theories and bias behind all scripture dates that are not several thousands of years old.

IMO, Mueller and Griffith did a decent and fair job with the information available to them during their time. As of 2011, the Rig-Veda date still remains pretty much the same as Mueller's, proving his dates were not fanciful, as claimed by critics.

Rig Veda talks about Saraswati River which dried up in ~2500- 3500 BC, puts Rig Veda more than 6000 years back.

Mueller intent was not purely clean in translating the VEDAS. When the foundation of thoughts was at fault, how can you use their corrupt translations. They came up with a myth called Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) so that Hindus living in India start considering them outsiders and barbaric hordes. They just did not want anything valuable to be indigenous to India and wanted themselves to be considered more supreme.

AIT was a racist and political propaganda started by European scholars and Christian missionaries like Max Mueller and others. It was based on invalid reasoning with no evidence to support it. AND, the recent evidence suggests that there was no Aryan race and the Rig Veda is indigenous to India based on archaeological evidence, textual evidence, and astronomical dating of Vedas.
 
I already know all that. I'm asking for specific errors in translation, if any actually exist. Like it or not, Western translations are the only unabridged translations of the Vedas into English.

Have you tried Aurobindo's english translation of VEDAS?

They are available online.
 
And what is the correct interpretation of the Veda? There are at least 22 known Vedanta schools each with a different interpretation the Veda. This was long before Europeans took interest in the Veda, long before the first translation.

I don't consider them to be different. They are all valid to me from a spiritual angle. I am more inclined towards Advaita because this is what at the current moment I understand the best for the level of my consciousness. But that does not mean others are wrong. Rig Veda says "EKAM SAD VIPRA BAHUDA VADATI". I consider all those translations to be valid and an attempt to interpret the cosmic reality, which is infinite. All these interpretation are like infinite possibilities on a continuum for describing the reality and at the same time are mutually inclusive.
 
Are they unabridged?

Besides, that doesn't answer my question.

The earliest complete commentary on Rig Veda mantra Samhita is due to Sāyaṇa Ācharya in the fourteenth century CE.

There are two complete English translations of Rig Veda done in the nineteenth century namely the 7-volumes of H.H. Wilson (1850-1858 CE) and that of R.T.H. Griffith (1896 CE) in a single volume.

There are two complete translations of Rig Veda done in the twentieth century. The first is the 30 volume edition done in (1947-1955) in Kannada language by H.P. Venkata Rao with the patronage of Maharaja of Mysore. The second is, 13 volume translation in English, was produced by Veda Pratiṣhṭhāna of New Delhi in the period 1977-1984.

All other translations and commentaries cover only a part of Rig Veda.

a. Sāyaṇa Ācharya and the scope of his work

Sāyaṇa Ācharya (1315-1387 CE) was the only person to write (or edit) a commentary on all the five Veda mantra Samhita books and also the relevant Brāhmaṇa books. He is the only one to write a commentary on the entire Rig Veda Mantra Samhita. All lovers of Veda must be grateful to him for these works and the luminous introductions to these works. A brief look at his life and the times in which he lived will be very useful for us to appreciate the range of his efforts.

A study of his life and his times gives ample clues towards understanding the scope of his work or the boundaries set by Sāyaṇa for his work. Recall that he studied in the monastery associated with the great Vedānta teacher Shankara, under his guru Swami Vidyatirtha, who was its head at that time. Naturally he completely accepted the teachings of Shankara in toto, assigning the Veda mantrās to karmakānda. Only the Upanishads were regarded as the repository of wisdom. It is the common idea prevailing even today in many so-called places of learning mathas, in India.

Recall that Sāyaṇa was not a fulltime Pandit. He was a successful prime minister of the vast empire of Karnataka with its capital in Vijayanāgar and also participated in battles. He with Hukka and others was instrumental in bringing together many small kingdoms to form a single kingdom, known as the Karnataka empire, so as to withstand the Islamic onslaughts. The Karnataka empire was restored so as to bring resurgence of all aspects of Indian culture. Sāyaṇa , being its prime minister and one of its founders, could not afford to be partial to any group. In India, all ideas are traced to Veda in the minds of ordinary people. Specifically it was felt:

(i) Veda had the knowledge of rituals whose performance gives prosperity.

(ii) The basis of Purāṇās with all their anecdotes was Veda.

(iii) The grammarian scholars of the empire felt that every word in the Veda can be traced to its roots as suggested by the great Panini.

(iv) Most of the Hindus went to temples where elaborate worship was performed to the deities Viṣhṇu, Shiva etc. These people wanted to know the connection of the mantrās of Veda to these deities.

(v) The ordinary people used several Veda mantrās in their sandhya worship; they wanted to know their meaning and their context.

(vi) Among Hindus, the natural phenomena such as rainfall or dawn are associated with the divine powers. Persons wanted to know what Veda has to say on the natural phenomenon.


Thus, Sāyaṇa , assisted by numerous pandits, wrote this magnificent commentary to satisfy the aspirations of a variety of Hindus. Sāyaṇa in his commentary on RV (1.164) states that he is aware of the spiritual interpretation of some mantrās. However he feels that the discussion of the spiritual interpretation is outside the scope of his book.

.....

To understand the contribution of Sāyaṇa , we have to study carefully his five bhūmikās (introduction) for the five Veda Mantra Samhitas. All these bhūmikās along with a wealth of information both in English and Sanskṛt is in the book, ‘Veda Bhashya Bhūmika Samgraha’, by Padma Vibhushan Baladeva Upadhyaya, originally published in 1934 in Benares.

Many (but not all) western indologists are highly appreciative of Sāyaṇa ’s commentary. The translator H.H. Wilson states: ‘‘although the interpretation of Sāyaṇa may be, occasionally, questioned, he undoubtedly had a knowledge of his text far beyond the pretensions of any European scholar, and must have been in possession, either through his own learning, or that of his assistants, of all the interpretations which had been perpetuated, by traditional teaching, from the earliest times.’’

We give here two other interesting estimates of Sāyaṇa’s work. Both Professors Benfey and Cowell do not accept the statement that Sāyaṇa ’s commentary represents the complete Indian tradition from the time of composition of the hymns to his time.

Professor Benfey notes: ‘‘Everyone who has carefully studied the Indian interpretations is aware that absolutely no continuous tradition extending from the composition of the veda to their explanation by Indian scholars can be assumed; that, on the contrary, between the genuine poetic remains of vedic antiquity and their interpretations, a long continued break in the tradition must have intervened; out of which, at most, the comprehension of some particulars may have been rescued and handed down to later times by means of liturgical usage and words, formulae, and perhaps also poems connected therewith’’. ‘‘This last work of rescue is exactly what Sāyaṇa ’s commentary represents’’ (KS).

Another western scholar, Professor Cowell remarks, in his preface to one of the volumes of Wilson’s translations that, ‘‘This work does not pretend to give a complete translation of the Rig Veda, but only a faithful image of that particular phase of its interpretation which the mediaeval Hindus, as represented by Sāyaṇa , have preserved. This view is in itself interesting and of a historical value; but far wider and deeper study is needed to pierce to the real meaning of these old hymns. Sāyaṇa ’s commentary will always retain a value of its own—even its mistakes are interesting—but his explanations must not for a moment bar the progress of scholarship’’. KS adds, ‘‘we appreciate the balanced and judicial statement of this Western scholar, for uttering these words of caution and wisdom, that Sāyaṇa ’s commentary represents a faithful picture of a particular phase of Vedic interpretation.’’

The shortcomings of the commentary by Sāyaṇa are well-documented by SA and also by KS, in his book, ‘‘A New Light on the Veda’’ published by SAKSI. I will focus here on only one aspect. For words such as vāja or ritam, which occur in more than 500 mantrās, he assigns twenty or more arbitrary meanings in different places to force the ritualist meanings. For details, see the book by A.B. Purani, ‘Studies in Vedic Interpretation’.

In our book, the word vāja has only one meaning namely plenitude; ṛtam means the ‘Right’ or ‘Truth in movement’. svadha is Self-law, the law within the self which supports each entity. However, I have extensively utilised the work of Sāyaṇ

......

Translation of Rig Veda in English

The earliest translation in English is due to H.H. Wilson, his first volume was published in 1850. He had high respect for Sāyaṇa ’s work and his translation follows the Sanskṛt commentary of Sāyaṇa without the grammatical details.

A new edition of his translation, prepared by Nag Publishers (1989) in 7 volumes, has also the mantrās in Devanāgari, the notes and several indices. The editor of this series, Prof. Dayanand Bhargava states, ‘my teachers always taught me Sāyaṇa ’s commentary even when they had to teach the ‘Vedic Reader’ by A.A. Macdonnell; my own experience of teaching for the last 20 years has shown that they were correct’’.

The work of R.T.H. Griffith, published in 1897 has only summary translations of all the mantrās of RV. His book has no text of the mantra. Griffith makes several rude comments on Rig Veda and its seers. He assumed that the poets of Rig Veda were nomads or engaged in primitive agriculture. For a detailed comparison of the translation of Griffith and that done by (SA), see the SAKSI book ‘Semantics of Rig Veda’. However it is good to remember that this was the only book easily available for Hindus for knowing the meaning of Rig Veda in English for over a hundred years, till the appearance of the edition of Nag publishers.

Note that for almost all Indologists, the battles in the Rig Veda are actual physical events between different tribes or clans, the so called devas and the dasyus. For a detailed rebuttal of the claims of these authors, see ‘The problem of Aryan invasion’, by K.D. Sethna. This book includes a chapter entitled, ‘Sri Aurobindo’s symbolic interpretation of Veda’.

source
 
I would say H. H. Wilson's translations are much more accurate version that is representative of Sayana's work compared to other western indologists.

A new edition of his translation, prepared by Nag Publishers (1989) in 7 volumes, has also the mantrās in Devanāgari, the notes and several indices.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Again, great. But there's plenty of free books and articles about the Vedas themselves from various people.

What about the Vedas themselves?
 
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Otherright

Otherright
Rig Veda talks about Saraswati River which dried up in ~2500- 3500 BC, puts Rig Veda more than 6000 years back.

Mueller intent was not purely clean in translating the VEDAS. When the foundation of thoughts was at fault, how can you use their corrupt translations. They came up with a myth called Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) so that Hindus living in India start considering them outsiders and barbaric hordes. They just did not want anything valuable to be indigenous to India and wanted themselves to be considered more supreme.

AIT was a racist and political propaganda started by European scholars and Christian missionaries like Max Mueller and others. It was based on invalid reasoning with no evidence to support it. AND, the recent evidence suggests that there was no Aryan race and the Rig Veda is indigenous to India based on archaeological evidence, textual evidence, and astronomical dating of Vedas.

Right and it also talks about villages that existed when the Ganges currently flows. That is, over time, its flow changed and consumed those villages. And they have found such villages.
 
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