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Did the True Church Apostasized?

Did the Chruch Apostasized?


  • Total voters
    33

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Victor said:
Ok, let me say this nicely. WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD I or ANYBODY FOR THE MATTER WANT TO WORSHSIP A GOD WE CAN SURPASS OR BE EQUAL TO?
I have no idea at all. I certainly wouldn't want to.
Satan tried that already and didn't have much success.
Actually, he didn't (unless I missed something somewhere in my reading of the Bible). I'm not aware that Satan ever worshipped or honored or paid tribute to God at all. He did try to usurp God's power, though, and exalt himself to be supreme. I hope you aren't suggesting that this is what we Latter-day Saints believe we can do or are trying to do, but it sounds suspiciously like that's what you're saying. (Nicely though.);)
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Katzpur said:
Victor,
Since Defense of Truth implied that we Latter-day Saints consider Jesus to be a liar, and since I asked for his interpretation of the verse he quoted, I hope you won't mind if I hold off on explaining how first century Christians would have understood Jesus' words. Or, if you feel comfortable in answering in his place, please feel free to do so. Do you believe that "the gates of hell" meant something like "the power of Satan" or "the forces of evil" or "the work of the devil"? Or would it have just been a hyperbole meaning something like "Nothing in the world will prevail against my Church"?
I'll let DofT answer. I'll wait for your answer.

~Victor
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Katzpur said:
I have no idea at all. I certainly wouldn't want to.


I guess I should take my observation that a person can indeed become equal to or above God the father as correct? You have made it clear that you wouldn't, but can you, if you wanted to?

Katzpur said:
Actually, he didn't (unless I missed something somewhere in my reading of the Bible). I'm not aware that Satan ever worshipped or honored or paid tribute to God at all. He did try to usurp God's power, though, and exalt himself to be supreme. I hope you aren't suggesting that this is what we Latter-day Saints believe we can do or are trying to do, but it sounds suspiciously like that's what you're saying. (Nicely though.);)
No, don't want to assume that. Thanks for clearing it up for me. This is consistant to your theology and my understading. :) Topic for another day.

Peace In Christ
~Victor
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
jonny said:
The reason I posted that was because I wanted to know if it was true (that the Roman Catholic church didn't take over as the main Catholic church until the fourth century).
Well, if you ask my Orthodox brothers and sisters, they will assure you that the Roman Church NEVER became the "main" Catholic Church.

Constantine was an EASTERN Emperor... and while his edicts did support the growth of the Church as a whole, history shows that Constantine helped in the rise of Constantanople to the rank of Apostolic See and "leader" of the Eastern Church on a level equal to Rome in the West.
Katzpur said:
I hope you won't mind if I hold off on explaining how first century Christians would have understood Jesus' words. Or, if you feel comfortable in answering in his place, please feel free to do so. Do you believe that "the gates of hell" meant something like "the power of Satan" or "evil" or "the work of the devil"? Or would it have just been a hyperbole meaning something like "Nothing in the world will prevail against my Church"?
I'm sure it was quite obvious to first century Christians that Jesus meant:

"Sorry gang....all of your children, and all of your children's children for the next 1700 years are going to be led astray into abomination and apostasy.... but fear not, the gates of hell will not prevail over Joseph Smith."

That is REALLY what Jesus meant, right?
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Scott1 said:
I'm sure it was quite obvious to first century Christians that Jesus meant:

"Sorry gang....all of your children, and all of your children's children for the next 1700 years are going to be led astray into abomination and apostasy.... but fear not, the gates of hell will not prevail over Joseph Smith."


That is REALLY what Jesus meant, right?
Finally! Someone gets it. I knew that you'd understand eventually! :woohoo:
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
jonny said:
Finally! Someone gets it. I knew that you'd understand eventually!
I hope you are at least partially kidding, jonny.... but you've also got to understand how insulting the Morman message is to "other" Christians.

1 Nephi 13:26: And after they [the prophecies and testimonies of the Bible] go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

1 Nephi 13:28: Wherefore, thou seest that after the book [the Bible] hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

1 Nephi 13:34: ...the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb [Bible] which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb.."


Again and again, the LDS Church shows its heart is based upon attacks and insults to the Catholic (both Roman and Orthodox) Church.... and by proxy, every non-Catholic Christian on the planet. Your recent attempts to portray the Mormon Church as "kinder-gentler" towards other faiths is betrayed by the core of your theology.

While I support your efforts, and your right to worship however you choose, I do believe that attemps to "soften" the message against non-Mormon Christians is decietful.... you believe we are children of the "great and abominable church", so why lie about it?

1 Nephi 14:9: And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

You can try all day long to mislead and misdirect seekers of truth away from what the true Mormon message is, but you can be sure that those of us blessed by the Grace of God can see through it.

May the Lord have mercy upon you all,
Scott
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Scott1 said:
Well, if you ask my Orthodox brothers and sisters, they will assure you that the Roman Church NEVER became the "main" Catholic Church.

Constantine was an EASTERN Emperor... and while his edicts did support the growth of the Church as a whole, history shows that Constantine helped in the rise of Constantanople to the rank of Apostolic See and "leader" of the Eastern Church on a level equal to Rome in the West.
Good point. So, do Roman Catholics believe that Orthodox Catholic priests have God's authority and visa versa?
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Scott1 said:
I hope you are at least partially kidding, jonny.... but you've also got to understand how insulting the Morman message is to "other" Christians.
I was 100% kidding. I do understand how insulting it it - please refer to my first post in this thread:

Jonny said:
I also voted yes, but I really don't want to debate this with Catholics because I think it is insulting to their faith.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
jonny said:
Good point. So, do Roman Catholics believe that Orthodox Catholic priests have God's authority and visa versa?
Yep.

With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist.

While not in full communion with all of the Orthodox, I believe the One and Universal Church, the Mystical Body of Christ must be conceived and explained as consisting of both the Christians of the Western Patriarchate and those of the various ('Catholic' and 'Orthodox') Patriarchates and autocephalus Churches.

I know this concept is foreign to you, but not all Christian communities view others as an "abomination".

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:199

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God"
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:171

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 6:176

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'"
- Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, LDS Church News, June 20, 1998, p.7
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
jonny said:
I also voted yes, but I really don't want to debate this with Catholics because I think it is insulting to their faith.
It is more insulting that you believe it, than to discuss it......
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Scott1 said:
It is more insulting that you believe it, than to discuss it......
Sorry. What can I say. A Mormon didn't bring up this discussion - a Catholic did. If you're insulted by my beliefs there really isn't anything I can do about it because it really isn't my problem. I'm sure that the Catholics don't believe that every single Christian church was founded by God, led by priests with his authority, and preaches the true gospel as found in the Bible.

The Roman Catholic Church declared Thursday that Mormon converts must be rebaptized, a setback to the Mormon Church's effort to characterize itself as a Christian denomination.

The Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith declared that baptisms in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are "not the baptism that Christ instituted."

The ruling was a departure from the Catholic Church's usual practice of recognizing the baptisms of converts from most other churches. The Vatican held that the Mormon view of the nature of God was too different from Catholicism's.

It was the second time in as many years that a major Christian church had ruled that Mormon converts must be rebaptized. Last year, the United Methodist Church, the nation's second-largest Protestant denomination, took a similar stand.
[...]

Dan Wotherspoon, editor of Sunstone Magazine, an independent journal of Mormon life and issues published in Salt Lake City, said, "Clearly, the LDS church still has their work cut out for them in this effort to be known as a Christian church."

In Salt Lake City, Latter-day Saints spokesmen sought to minimize the importance of the Catholic decision, or its possible effect on efforts by the church to present itself as a Christian church.
[...]

In Rome, the Vatican congregation indicated that radically different theological views of God and Jesus Christ necessitated the rebaptism of Mormon converts.

The congregation said that the Catholic Church could not accept Mormon belief that "God the father had a wife, the Celestial Mother, with whom he procreated Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit."
Source: Vatican Will Not Accept Mormon Baptisms, Los Angeles Times, July 20, 2001
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
jonny said:
Sorry. What can I say. A Mormon didn't bring up this discussion - a Catholic did. If you're insulted by my beliefs there really isn't anything I can do about it because it really isn't my problem.
And thank goodness he did.... I've been fooled into thinking something very different about your faith, I'm glad I know the truth now.
I'm sure that the Catholics don't believe that every single Christian church was founded by God, led by priests with his authority, and preaches the true gospel as found in the Bible.
Ummmm....
"....(M)any elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."(CCC #819)

.... and that is a LONG way from calling them "apostate" or "abominations" "led by the devil".
The Roman Catholic Church declared Thursday that Mormon converts must be rebaptized, a setback to the Mormon Church's effort to characterize itself as a Christian denomination.
... and thank God they did.....after all....like your prophet said: "The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak."
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Scott1 said:
"....(M)any elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."(CCC #819)
Ok then - just not us. That's fine if you want to be insulted, but your church isn't in love with the Mormons either.

Q: I read recently that the Catholic Church had rejected Mormon baptism, since their view of Christ and the Trinity is so unusual. But I have to ask: Are Mormons considered separated brothers and sisters? While their views are strange to say the least, they are still separated, and we should reach out to them. If we view them as something other than separated, doesn't that exclude ecumenism? I know that many view them as a cult, but aren't cult members separated as well?

A: The reason Mormons are not considered separated brethren is not because they aren't "separated" from the Church-they are-but they aren't "brethren" in the sense required.

The phrase separated brethren refers to those who, though separated from full communion with the Catholic Church, have been justified through baptism and are thus brethren in Christ. The Decree on Ecumenism (Unitatis Redintegratio) of Vatican II teaches that "all who have been justified by faith in baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."

Because Mormonism is polytheistic and rejects the Trinity, Mormon baptism is not valid, and Mormons are not considered separated brethren. For the same reason, outreach to them, while certainly a good thing, is not ecumenism, though it can include dialogue and social cooperation as well as efforts to evangelize them.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
Scott1 said:
And thank goodness he did.... I've been fooled into thinking something very different about your faith, I'm glad I know the truth now.
You obviously don't know much about my faith. Your analysis is as shallow as mine would be if I were to analyze your faith based on the crimes that the catholic church has committed over the centuries.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
You need to separate out the concept of the apostasy and the great and abominable church if you want to accurately understand my beliefs. They are not one and the same.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
jonny said:
Ok then - just not us. That's fine if you want to be insulted, but your church isn't in love with the Mormons either.

Applying it to the Church is not cool. Both our churches have members that may not behave accordingly.

~Victor
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
jonny said:
You obviously don't know much about my faith. Your analysis is as shallow as mine would be if I were to analyze your faith based on the crimes that the catholic church has committed over the centuries.
Is that really what you would use to analyze it?

~Victor
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Victor said:


I guess I should take my observation that a person can indeed become equal to or above God the father as correct? You have made it clear that you wouldn't, but can you, if you wanted to?
No, it would be absolutely impossible. Furthermore, we can only progress at all to the degree that God wills it. Surely you don't believe He is incapable of making us anything he wants to make us.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Scott1 said:
I'm sure it was quite obvious to first century Christians that Jesus meant:

"Sorry gang....all of your children, and all of your children's children for the next 1700 years are going to be led astray into abomination and apostasy.... but fear not, the gates of hell will not prevail over Joseph Smith."

That is REALLY what Jesus meant, right?
No it isn't. Strangely, Defense of Truth seems to have lost interest in defending the truth. Victor said he'll wait for DofT's answer, and the best you can come up with is sarcasm. I would like to ask that you go back and read my post in which I asked what Catholics believe the phrase "the gates of hell" to have meant to Peter and the other Apostles. And, if possible, please tell me why you believe as you do.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Scott1 said:
You can try all day long to mislead and misdirect seekers of truth away from what the true Mormon message is, but you can be sure that those of us blessed by the Grace of God can see through it.

May the Lord have mercy upon you all.
Scott,

In Revelation 17:4-5, we read, "And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

What do these verses mean to Catholics? And why are you insisting that the references to the "Great and Abominable Church" are specifically aimed at Catholicism? Our leaders have stated repeatedly that this is not the case, but you seem determined to believe that it is.

Since you apparently have the grace of God with you and we do not, there is really no need for you to be so upset. Isn't His opinion all that really matters anyway? But thanks for the prayer on our behalf. I hope He will be merciful to Catholics and Mormons alike.

Kathryn
 
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