Was Jesus actually crucified?

angellous_evangellous said:

That kindness is so excessive that you'll be nominated for sainthood. :yes:

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(Truth be know, I thought the "thin enough to be transparent" was fairly clever.)

rsd said:

I had first heard about this maybe way back in the early 90s when I didn't have Google and didn't look into it. Then when I was visiting my mother-in-law, on the front page of the San Angelo newspaper was a large picture of a nun and subsequently, for the first time I read my first account of this remarkable nun. In the newspaper several books were mentioned. One is a Dan Brown kind of book with a story line that mentions this same nun off and on. But it also mentioned another book and it is, "Maria of Agreda: Mystical Lady in Blue" by Marilyn Fedewa. This book is written on a college level by a college professor.

But as you probably know, Spanish nuns were never allowed to leave their convents in Spain, what to speak of traveling to New Spain (Mexico, America). So when the Jumano indians pointed at a painting of a nun and said that a young nun was teaching them, that was impossible. Or, was there a renegade nun or a woman impersonating a nun? Had the indians kidnapped a white woman and that was the person teaching the indians. Or, even perhaps Coronado, who had traveled thru parts of Texas 100 years earlier...did he have a white woman with him. Did she give birth and was it her child that the indians were talking about. But Coronado had never mentioned this in his records. But the blue cape that Mother luisa was wearing in the painting gave Fr. Benevides a clue. He wrote back to Spain and asked that someone visit the convents located in Northern Spain where the only nuns in Spain dressed in that color cape. That letter took almost a year to reach the church officials that Benevides had addressed it to.

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:sleep:

angellous_evangellous said:

Yes, there's nothing to discuss. At least until you provide the details regarding your source so we can read it too. Then we can discuss it. Until then, we just have to put up with cold air.

By the way, I see the 1625 date. Is that the source from the 1600s that you reference in your first post?? A story about American Indians from Texas?

Well cut my legs off and call me shorty.

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Wish there was some of that cold air here in Texas. Another 104 scorcher. I have today off and am enjoying being off. Got the AC running and some fans. Makes it tolerable. I just posted the source material. 1600-1640 is a ballpark figure for the events surrounding the events I am mentioning. You see, even before this nun, Maria, became a nun, she played a role in all these events. The problem is this: Later in life an older priest was assigned to "rule" over her. He ordered her to burn all her diaries, which she did. That wiped out forever a percise timeline. But other records still exist today.

rsd said:

I just posted the source material. 1600-1640 is a ballpark figure for the events surrounding the events I am mentioning. You see, even before this nun, Maria, became a nun, she played a role in all these events. The problem is this: Later in life an older priest was assigned to "rule" over her. He ordered her to burn all her diaries, which she did. That wiped out forever a percise timeline. But other records still exist today.

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This is really silly drivel ... :yes:

rsd said:

I had first heard about this maybe way back in the early 90s when I didn't have Google and didn't look into it. Then when I was visiting my mother-in-law, on the front page of the San Angelo newspaper was a large picture of a nun and subsequently, for the first time I read my first account of this remarkable nun. In the newspaper several books were mentioned. One is a Dan Brown kind of book with a story line that mentions this same nun off and on. But it also mentioned another book and it is, "Maria of Agreda: Mystical Lady in Blue" by Marilyn Fedewa. This book is written on a college level by a college professor.

But as you probably know, Spanish nuns were never allowed to leave their convents in Spain, what to speak of traveling to New Spain (Mexico, America). So when the Jumano indians pointed at a painting of a nun and said that a young nun was teaching them, that was impossible. Or, was there a renegade nun or a woman impersonating a nun? Had the indians kidnapped a white woman and that was the person teaching the indians. Or, even perhaps Coronado, who had traveled thru parts of Texas 100 years earlier...did he have a white woman with him. Did she give birth and was it her child that the indians were talking about. But Coronado had never mentioned this in his records. But the blue cape that Mother luisa was wearing in the painting gave Fr. Benevides a clue. He wrote back to Spain and asked that someone visit the convents located in Northern Spain where the only nuns in Spain dressed in that color cape. That letter took almost a year to reach the church officials that Benevides had addressed it to.

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Anything better? Why on earth do you think that Fedewa's book is on the college level or that she's a professor? Which college does she teach at?

Her website gives her bibliography and she hasn't written for one peer-reviewed journal. She's an amaetur - and I have serious doubts that you've read her book.

rsd said:

I had first heard about this maybe way back in the early 90s when I didn't have Google and didn't look into it. Then when I was visiting my mother-in-law, on the front page of the San Angelo newspaper was a large picture of a nun and subsequently, for the first time I read my first account of this remarkable nun. In the newspaper several books were mentioned. One is a Dan Brown kind of book with a story line that mentions this same nun off and on. But it also mentioned another book and it is, "Maria of Agreda: Mystical Lady in Blue" by Marilyn Fedewa. This book is written on a college level by a college professor.

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So, you are relying on a fiction book for part of your information?

As for Marilyn Fedewa, just because someone worked at a college, that does not mean they are writing a college level book. From what I can see, she has only taught preschool and elementary school. Very big difference.

More so, what does this have to do with Jesus and his crucifixion in the first place?

fallingblood said:

More so, what does this have to do with Jesus and his crucifixion in the first place?

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Obviously - the Indians in Texas carried around crosses before the Spanish missionaries arrived. And that freaked everyone out.

Then they held hands, ate apple pie, and played baseball. At the same time.

My God, what a tough bunch of character here. You know, I joined the other day and I feel like I've been thrown into a den of lions. Oh well, onward... I think I will just tell everyone how this is is all connected to the crucifixion of Jesus, but it takes a little telling. In order to "get it" there are actually several events that need to covered. A. How it was that American Indians were taught by a Spanish Nun. B. An execution by whipping-to-death of a Muslim Saint and how after a beating that lasted 7 times the maximum it ever took to kill someone by whipping...how this great saint could not be killed. In fact, he lived a long life. C. Knowledge of important Catholic saints that shared with the Spanish nun, Sister Maria of Agreda, Spain certain gifts and D. a Scriptural account of an ancient dance. After I digested all these things for myself, in a very logical way it became quite clear that Jesus was probably never crucified.

rsd said:

My God, what a tough bunch of character here. You know, I joined the other day and I feel like I've been thrown into a den of lions. Oh well, onward... I think I will just tell everyone how this is is all connected to the crucifixion of Jesus, but it takes a little telling. In order to "get it" there are actually several events that need to covered. A. How it was that American Indians were taught by a Spanish Nun. B. An execution by whipping-to-death of a Muslim Saint and how after a beating that lasted 7 times the maximum it ever took to kill someone by whipping...how this great saint could not be killed. In fact, he lived a long life. C. Knowledge of important Catholic saints that shared with the Spanish nun, Sister Maria of Agreda, Spain certain gifts and D. a Scriptural account of an ancient dance. After I digested all these things for myself, in a very logical way it became quite clear that Jesus was probably never crucified.

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You don't vote or drive, do you?

rsd said:

My God, what a tough bunch of character here. You know, I joined the other day and I feel like I've been thrown into a den of lions. Oh well, onward... I think I will just tell everyone how this is is all connected to the crucifixion of Jesus, but it takes a little telling. In order to "get it" there are actually several events that need to covered. A. How it was that American Indians were taught by a Spanish Nun. B. An execution by whipping-to-death of a Muslim Saint and how after a beating that lasted 7 times the maximum it ever took to kill someone by whipping...how this great saint could not be killed. In fact, he lived a long life. C. Knowledge of important Catholic saints that shared with the Spanish nun, Sister Maria of Agreda, Spain certain gifts and D. a Scriptural account of an ancient dance. After I digested all these things for myself, in a very logical way it became quite clear that Jesus was probably never crucified.

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I can't wait until you get to the part about the Knight's Templar.

*hugs rsd*

The only way Jesus could NOT have been crucified is the obvious, He was never there. But how can that be?

Eventually investigators traveled to Agreda and knocked on the door of the covent. Apparently they just came right out and asked all the sisters if any of them had any knowledge of nun - possibly a "drop out" - who had fled to Texas and was now teaching the indians.

Maria immediately stepped forward and claimed that it was she whom the indians were talking about.

It was about this time that two priest from the mission in New Mexico finally set foot in San Angelo, Texas. They had been invited to return with the indians a year earlier. Behind the HEB grocery store in San Angelo is what is today called "College Hill." It was on top of this hill and looking down that the two priest saw a sight that took their breath away. There are Spanish records that detail all of this.

Most likely following their indian guides to the top of the hill, looking down the priest saw around 6000 indians walking behind a 6 foot cross. It was decorated with flower garlands. The indians told the priests that a young girl had taught them how to make the cross and decorate it. She also told them how to find the mission in New Mexico. She also gave them the rosary beads. But the two priest never did see her in person.

Back in Agreda, Spain sister Maria confessed to everything. Immediately a letter was sent from Spain to New Mexico demanding that Fr. Benevides return at once and personally interview this nun. At that time, the Church was keenly aware of witchcraft, black magic, and a whole list of errors that was corrupting their convents and the situation at the convent in Agreda seemed ripe for such corruption. Only Fr. Benevides had firsthand knowledge of America and the Jumano Indians and along with his assistants would eventually examine at every word of her testimony in order to route any lies.

I think the book you read was nice fiction. But historically, it is about as credible as fairies. Please though, show us the Spanish records you spoke of.

Kilgore Trout said:

I can't wait until you get to the part about the Knight's Templar.

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Sorry, they were never mentioned. But the life of Sister Maria is well known. Things like...she only went to school for a couple of months when she was six years old. Yet, she penned 14 books during her life. The authorities at the convent knew she was different and gave her a private room. The other nuns were burning with curiosity and carved a little peep hole in her door to see what she was doing in there. When they looked, they saw her floating in the air. So full of gossip and loose lips, they invited just about the entire town - at one time or another - to watch her float. One of the nuns even discovered that if she blew hard, she could move the floating nun around a bit.

Eventually she told Fr. Benevides everything. How when she was young she nearly died. But she didn't and woke with an overpowering need to save the American indians she had heard so much about from priest who had been serving in New Spain. She told the investigators that lost in prayer and sacred song, that she simply materialized to the indians. Kind of like "beam me up Scotty" but with a twist. In Star Wars when they beamed down, they 100% went down. But with Sister Maria, although she "beamed down"- in fact, she was still in her room in Spain. So more like Jake Sully in Avatar, if you get my drift. The point is, she claimed that she had visited the indians over 500 times. The rosary beads, she said she had taken from the convent. The very same rosary beads that Fr. Benevides had with him.

There is a long history of this "ability" inside the Catholic church. This is called, bilocation: when a person can be in 2 places at the same time. Many examples of this exist. The rosary beads thus became an artifact that for me lifted this story out from fable and myth into a realm of something more believable. She accurately described to Fr. Benevides things that only if she had been there could she have known...such as an indian with one eye.

fallingblood said:

I think the book you read was nice fiction. But historically, it is about as credible as fairies. Please though, show us the Spanish records you spoke of.

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I mentioned that a few post back. Got to go gas up the wife's car. Tomorrow is a work day for both of us. Logging out for now.

rsd said:

Sorry, they were never mentioned. ...

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It's a bit like uncontrollable drool.

rsd said:

I mentioned that a few post back. Got to go gas up the wife's car. Tomorrow is a work day for both of us. Logging out for now.

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Actually you mentioned something about a fiction book and then a book by someone who really is not an authority at all. From what I have read she is just one more pseudo historian. I would say she is probably just as accurate as Dan Brown, which is not very accurate at all.

You never supplied the supposed Spanish records or really any support for what seems like a fairy tale. Levitating nuns who can beam themselves places simply is not credible. And I'm still wondering how any of this has to do with the crucifixion.

I am almost wondering if you are just a fiction writing who is just playing us.

fallingblood said:

Actually you mentioned something about a fiction book and then a book by someone who really is not an authority at all. From what I have read she is just one more pseudo historian. I would say she is probably just as accurate as Dan Brown, which is not very accurate at all.

You never supplied the supposed Spanish records or really any support for what seems like a fairy tale. Levitating nuns who can beam themselves places simply is not credible. And I'm still wondering how any of this has to do with the crucifixion.

I am almost wondering if you are just a fiction writing who is just playing us.

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Fallingblood, I simply started this tread because it is interesting. Can I tell you what isle to walk down in some old library in Madrid where all the records are kept in such and such numbered drawer. No. Does that bother me? No. I was upfront. One book is a Dan Brown kind of book. The other impressed me as being very well researched. It satisfied me. You can say that the author of that book or the nuns account is not credible, OK, but it is credible to me because there are many examples of bilocation. The very first time I read about it was in the book, "Autobiography of a Yogi." That was in 1975 when I read that. Then, as I said, there must be a couple dozen more examples in the Catholic histories. If this was the ONLY example of bilocation, right, then how could anyone make a case for anything using it as proof. And by the way, I am not trying to prove anything.

Anyhow, back to the story. At least for Fr. Benevides, he was satisfied that the nun was telling him the truth. If you ever read about Sol Maria de Agreda you might change your view of her. She was certainly not your average nun. But to your point, what does this have to do with Jesus on the cross?

One thing that she told Fr. Benevides is that the indians didn't always treat her with the love they later expressed. In fact, she said that the indians actually harmed her. They captured her and tortured her, and shot her with arrows. More than once is what I gathered.

Haridas Thakura was a Muslim by birth but instead of embracing his religion, instead he was very attached to praying with the Hindus and saying their prayers. This upset the Muslims terribly. Finally after all their tricks to prove that Haridas was not a saint, failed, they had soldiers bring him in front of the Muslim magistrate. He told him if he renounced the names of the Hindu God and returned to Allah, that he would be set free. If not, he would be condemned to death.

Haridas refused to give up his Hindu prayers and was thus condemned to death by whipping. After the 21st beating he was still alive. Terror ran through his executioners because they would be accused of taking it easy on Haridas and be put to death, themselves. Taking pitty on them, Haridas went into a trance and was thought to be finally dead. His body was then thrown into a river where miles away he climbed out. Anyhow, the thing about this story is that years later (about 500 years ago) a great personality was upon the earth and Haridas was his dear friend. Many say that this person was none other than God. One day when everyone was talking about the beating that Haridas received, this divine person said that actually it wasn't Haridas that was beat. He then stood up and turned around, exposing a divine vision of his shredded back. Many of his followers fainted. The point here is that this is another example of where there were those who THOUGHT they had so and so in their grasp, were in fact mistaken. The Indians thought they had captured Sister Maria. But she was always well and alive in Agreda, Spain.

So you can see the connection I am sure. If the indians thought they were touching, capturing, tochering, and killing Maria - but had her "double" - if the Muslims thought they had Haridas but didn't - who did the Roman soldiers actually have in their custody? Next I will tell you how the 5000 year old ancient dance can shed light on all of this.

Rsd- This is a debate forum. People are not going to believe an incredible story like this unless you supply some evidence to back it up. You simply haven't done that. You said that part of your evidence is a Dan Brown type book. To me, that suggest a fictional novel based on shoddy research and a conspiracy theory with no real evidence. From what you've said that is what your story is as well.

People dont live five hundred years. People don't beam to other places. People don't levitate. Throughout history there has never been a case in which can be backed up by sound evidence. If people can beam themselves places they have never presented the evidence for it. Like I have said before it is as credible as fairies.

You have provided no evidence besides myths that have been passed down and never actually historically investigated.

As for you conclusion about the crucifixion, there is no reason to assume it is credible at all. Myths do not provide evidence of historical events. Jesus was crucified. He died on the cross. There is no reason to doubt such. To sum up, your theory is basically bunk.

Well since I am no scholar and I am not seeking to prove or disprove anything I found your story very interesting and entertaining. Some of the comments from your "admirers" were kinds funny too. Oh well, better than TV right now...