• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Paid Pastors/Ministry?

idea

Question Everything
With a donation one gives the amount he decides, and when and how often. Or she..

I do like the concept of "freewill" offerings, ie, not giving because you feel obligated to, but voluntarily - and we have that too - most people put in more than the obligatory 10% - for some reason the scriptures do seem to specify the 10% thing... I guess if you are new into the "charity" thing it might be hard at first - so you initially give out of obligation, then as you get used to the idea of giving, you can progress to the next level... sort of like "don't murder" before "love your enemy" there are levels to the laws... 10% gives you a good starting point - like saying 15% tip at a restaurant or something - the tip is voluntary, but kind of expected... but then if you give a 25% tip, that's sooper nice :)
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
an investment in the unknown future...;)
I like that. It would make a pretty good marketing slogan.

i find it odd when a pastor drives around in a luxury car or lives in a posh area...pretty common with mega churches...perhaps they have found a niche to sell their books or a sermon for profit...

it's obvious to some. unfortunately not to the majority.
I agree. I find it odd as well to see ministers driving around in luxury and having large homes. Honestly, if I got the chance though, I don't know if I would turn it down. One could do a lot of good with those type of resources that are being offered.

Book sales do make a very large difference here as well. I grew up in an Evangelical house, with a library full of these books. And not just that, but movies, tapes, etc. However, I would say the majority of these individuals are honest in what they are trying to do. Others, not so much though. Some definitely do prey on their congregations.

I think they are misguided in a lot of aspects, but most of them are trying to do what they think is helpful.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Most congregations today have some system of paid ministry in place. What are the scriptures in support of this?

I know some view it as necessary to promote the gospel, while others consider it a hindrance because the church is often viewed by the masses as just big business. What is your take?

Jesus said, "the hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep." (John 10:13) Discuss.

As is common on many issues, the Bible is ambiguous. I think this passage (1 Corinthians 9) suggests both sides:

1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? 2 Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4 Don’t we have the right to food and drink? 5 Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas[a]? 6 Or is it only I and Barnabas who lack the right to not work for a living?
7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk? 8 Do I say this merely on human authority? Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.”[b] Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10 Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us, because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
15 But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me, for I would rather die than allow anyone to deprive me of this boast. 16 For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel.
IOW, Paul says two things:

- preachers and ministers have a right to a material living from preaching and ministry.

- he (presumably someone to be held up as a righteous person and an example) declines to enjoy this right.

Does this support a paid or unpaid ministry? I suppose it'll probably come down to one's preconception.

The Bible never says that. It never says that one who is rich or wealthy in this life will not have the same in the next life.
Yes, it does. I think that's one of the central themes of the Gospels, in fact.

Edit: Luke 6:

24 But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full. 25 Woe to you who [m]are well-fed now, for you shall be hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep. 26 Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to [n]treat the false prophets in the same way.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
there are a few "top dogs" if you will who receive a living allowance, but it is not that large of an allowance - most of the "top dogs" are old retired people who have had a successful career and are able to retire / spend their retirement working for the church...

our top three:
President Monson - served in the U.S. Navy in WW2, graduated ”cum laude” from the University of Utah with a degree in business management, retired from a publishing and printing career.
President Eyring - a retired educator / scientist / and Harvard-trained businessman,
President Uchtdorf - retired German commercial pilot and airline executive

most of the "top dogs" take a pretty large pay-cut when they decide to start working full time for the church ;)
I'm not sure it's really accurate to speak of someone as "retired" when they left the job force at the age of 36 to become an Apostle (as Thomas Monson was). I would agree with you that most of the General Authorities did take significant pay cuts to give up their careers in "the real world," but while most of the "top dogs" may be well past retirement age, they did not retire and then become General Authorities. Most of them were called to serve right at the pinnacle of their careers.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I have no problem with small humble church groups - where people are obviously not working for money... I was actually raised in such a group - called "the Bible Students" who met in houses etc. etc.

Again, you are just showing that you have no idea what the vast majority of Christian churches are like. You are basing an opinion on ignorance. It is a simple as that. More so, you are assuming that your way is better simply because it is your way. That is not humble at all.
I'm trying to see what there was in idea's statement what you found offensive. She actually appeared to be on your side to me.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Yes, it does. I think that's one of the central themes of the Gospels, in fact.

Edit: Luke 6:
I stand corrected. At the same time though, I don't think Jesus is necessarily condemning that social class. The verse is only directed at would be disciples of Jesus who have possessions. And then it is not actually saying that the problem is that they have possessions. Instead, Jesus was calling for a reform, at least for his disciples.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I'm trying to see what there was in idea's statement what you found offensive. She actually appeared to be on your side to me.
I didn't say I was offended. However, I think Idea is basing their opinion on ignorance. This is the first statement that was made that led to the statement of mine that you quoted:
Idea said:
It is an ethical issue - if there is $ involved, the ethical teachings are going to be different - the pastor is going to try and get more followers - hence more $ - and so they are going to preach things like "all you need is faith - you don't have to do any works at all - you don't have to be charitable etc. etc. to be saved" - they will preach things which cater to the carnal mind in order to get more followers and more money...

many ethical things - like "get up and work" - people do not want to hear, and no one is really going to pay for so things get dumbed down and turned into a "feel good" session, instead of a "this is what you need to do in order to progress" type session....
This simply is an ignorant statement. It shows absolutely no research into other denominations, and at most, basing a very large opinion on a very small minority.

The idea that ministers would dumb down their message because they accept money is simply ignorant and not based on any logical research. I grew up in an Evangelical church. We were encouraged to do charity work. We were told that faith was not the only thing we needed. They did not in any way carter to the carnal mind in order to gain more followers or money. And it was hardly a feel good session. You don't feel good with threats of going to hell.

The same is true with Catholic and Lutheran churches. In fact, both actually require younger members, who are going their form of confirmation courses, to do charity work.

My problem with the statement that was made was that it was ignorant. If any research was done on their part, they would know that their statement was false. And then in addition, the implication that their form of service is better, as it is not dumbed down, is not humble at all, which was a claim that they made about their type of church.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
You can't have a permanent dedicated priesthood/pastorship without financially supporting the priests/pastors...
 

Firstborner

Active Member
Different times. You can not equate the aid they received during that time with what ministers receive today. They are completely different situations.

You are right, formerly they only received due hospitality when traveling. Today they are actually paid a salary.

Apostle Paul actually commanded the Elders of Ephesus, "I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive." Now this was a command at the time explicitly to the Elders, it is in line with his statement to the Corinthians, "Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children."

Scripture may not state exactly how these women provided for Jesus, but it does say that they provided for him (and the disciples) out of their means, or resources. If we look at other itinerant preachers from that time, it would have most likely meant in some monetary form. This compensation would be used in order to provide food, possibly shelter, and other necessities.

Luke 7:37-38; Mark14:3-9 are examples of the ways the women ministered to Jesus out of their own substance. I do not believe he accepted money from them, and even if he had it would have been distributed to the poor and not to himself or his disciples.

That is very close to what happens now with modern ministers. At the very least, it certainly shows that one does not have to do their work completely for free. That one should not feel guilty or wrong by accepting some compensation for their work. Jesus did. Without that compensation, he probably would have gone nowhere.
There is no suggestion that Jesus and his disciples continued to work after they started their ministry. There is no suggestion at all. And in the case of being fishermen, it is quite unlikely. The first being that it would have been too much of a burden to haul the supplies need for fishing (the boat, nets, etc).

I am not seeing any scripture where he accepted any more than hospitality. Most of his travels through the gospel narratives involved ships and coastal cities. Not only was it not a problem for some of the disciple to ply their trade, it afforded them easy access to travel.

As for Jesus being a carpenter, and actively doing that, there is no suggestion. Jesus is only called a carpenter once, and then that is never brought up again. The Bible never implies he continued working as a carpenter, or that he did any sort of work in that capacity during his ministry. With the way he was traveling, it is unlikely he did. To assume he did simply is not credible.

He was known as a carpenter during his ministry, which was part of the excuse for some Jews for not heeding him. Even in Jerusalem where he made the famous remark, "Destroy this Temple and I will build it in three days", was suggestive that he was an acknowledged carpenter in that place. Carpenters by nature of their trade move about.

As for being lean times, that was basically all there was for those people during that time. The majority of people were on the bottom, and trying to just make sure they could stay there and not go any further down.

Perhaps for the majority, but there were several examples in the scriptures for men and women who had means.

2 Corinthians 8:14-15
But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality: As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.




The fact that Jesus and his group had money, and money to spend (they obviously spent money on different occasions), suggests that they were in fact being compensated for what they were doing. Looking at this from a historical perspective, it would not have been uncommon for an itinerate preacher, like Jesus, to receive support from those he was preaching to. And it would be logical to assume he did, as that was natural. Since nothing of the opposition is mentioned, and we fully know that Jesus and his group had money, the logical conclusion is that they received monetary support.

That they had some money is not in doubt. But they did not have much. There is no account of them accepting alms, but there is of them giving alms. They worked for their necessities, received some hospitality, and distributed to the poor. There is no scripture that indicates they earned money by preaching, teaching, or healing.

Luke 9:2-4
And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece. And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Because, if being a priest/pastor is all that someone does, and they do it for all of their life they have no means to support themselves.

Apostle Paul and his coterie did it!
The apostles lived off of the donations from the community. The Bible does not, to my knowledge, mention them working day jobs... but it does mention them collecting the donations, sometimes encompassing the entire earthly wealth of the person donating.
 

Firstborner

Active Member
The apostles lived off of the donations from the community. The Bible does not, to my knowledge, mention them working day jobs... but it does mention them collecting the donations, sometimes encompassing the entire earthly wealth of the person donating.

Chapters and verse please. I am not aware of any passage of them taking donations, other than to distribute to the needs of the poor.

"And because he (Apostle Paul) was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers." ( Acts 18:3)
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Why not? Apostle Paul and his coterie did it!
No they didn't. Paul was not a permanent minister. He was a traveling minister, who in fact, did have a lot of education. More so, we are told that he did receive support from various churches. Jesus did as well.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Chapters and verse please. I am not aware of any passage of them taking donations, other than to distribute to the needs of the poor.

"And because he (Apostle Paul) was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers." ( Acts 18:3)
Philippians 4:15-18 states that Paul did in fact receive some form of compensation, or support from various churches.

1 Corinthians 9 also states that they have the right to take compensation. That there is nothing wrong with it.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Philippians 4:15-18 states that Paul did in fact receive some form of compensation, or support from various churches.

1 Corinthians 9 also states that they have the right to take compensation. That there is nothing wrong with it.
Also, 1 Timothy (can't remember the chapter offhand) describes how good elders of the church should be put on "the list" (...of those who received support from the church, mainly widows) for a double share.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Most congregations today have some system of paid ministry in place. What are the scriptures in support of this?

I know some view it as necessary to promote the gospel, while others consider it a hindrance because the church is often viewed by the masses as just big business. What is your take?

Jesus said, "the hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep." (John 10:13) Discuss.
Seems to me that if the Ministry is nothing more than mere hirelings........

Every ministry has costs.
If these costs do not get met, the ministry fails.

Seems to me that some ministries feel the need to flaunt (for lack of a better term) the excess of monies they receive.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
You are right, formerly they only received due hospitality when traveling. Today they are actually paid a salary.

Apostle Paul actually commanded the Elders of Ephesus, "I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive." Now this was a command at the time explicitly to the Elders, it is in line with his statement to the Corinthians, "Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children."
Paul also said that he and others had right to received a compensation/support for doing the work they were, spreading the gospel.

More so, it was more than hospitality they were receiving. They also received gifts and the like. Philippians 4 states that Paul even did so.
Luke 7:37-38; Mark14:3-9 are examples of the ways the women ministered to Jesus out of their own substance. I do not believe he accepted money from them, and even if he had it would have been distributed to the poor and not to himself or his disciples.
Of their own resources. There is a monetary connotation to that. Luke 7 and Mark 14 are talking about some very different. Those weren't the women who were said to be ministering to Jesus and his disciples out of their own resources. That is a completely different woman who has nothing to do with the previous.

And it is fine if you don't believe something. However, if you can't support that belief, there is no reason for me to think that it is credible. More so, taking verses out of context, and pretending they have something to do with other verses, simply doesn't work.

I am not seeing any scripture where he accepted any more than hospitality. Most of his travels through the gospel narratives involved ships and coastal cities. Not only was it not a problem for some of the disciple to ply their trade, it afforded them easy access to travel.
Again, there is no suggestion at all that the disciple applied their trade. As I already mentioned, just carrying the supplies to fish simply would not have been possible. More so, if you trace the movement of Jesus, he is not by coastal cities that much. And even then, there is no time given to him or his disciple working. To assume so simply is not credible as there is no evidence for such a belief.

More so, the scripture may not state that he received money, but we know that the disciples had a treasurer, Judas. There would have been no need for that if they weren't receiving money. And again, since we are never told that they ever did anything put minister, there is no reason to assume that they were still applying their old trades. In fact, the only time we are told that the disciples went back to their old jobs is when Jesus died, and then in order to go back to their old jobs, they went back to Galilee. That is all the more reason to assume that they simply did not carry their supplies with them.
He was known as a carpenter during his ministry, which was part of the excuse for some Jews for not heeding him. Even in Jerusalem where he made the famous remark, "Destroy this Temple and I will build it in three days", was suggestive that he was an acknowledged carpenter in that place. Carpenters by nature of their trade move about.
He was only mentioned as a carpenter once, in one Gospel. That occurred in his home town, at the beginning of his ministry. After that, there is absolutely no mention or reference to him being a carpenter. So no, we can not say it was known that he was a carpenter, as there is no evidence for such.

As for his famous remark, that was not a literal remark. He wasn't going to actually destroy the Temple and build it up physically. It was a metaphor. It has nothing to do with carpentry.

Finally, there is no suggestion that some Jews would not listen to him because he was a carpenter. Again, the fact that he is a carpenter is only mentioned once, in one Gospel, and that was in his home town. It is never mentioned anywhere else.
Perhaps for the majority, but there were several examples in the scriptures for men and women who had means.

2 Corinthians 8:14-15
But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality: As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.
You have to realize that those who had means were a very very small minority. And really, it doesn't change what I said.
That they had some money is not in doubt. But they did not have much. There is no account of them accepting alms, but there is of them giving alms. They worked for their necessities, received some hospitality, and distributed to the poor. There is no scripture that indicates they earned money by preaching, teaching, or healing.
There is also no mention of them working for their necessities, unless that work is to do with ministry. More so, there is no mention that they didn't receive money, thus your point is moot.

You really have nothing that supports your stance.
Luke 9:2-4
And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece. And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.
This is actually somewhat funny that you would mention this verse. We have to put it into a historic context. If we look at other literature from that time, we see other itinerate preachers doing the same as this. The reason was because the expectation was that others would provide for them. If you were accepted into a home, they would feed you and the like, and you would minister onto them. Then they would depart for the next. It was a form of support/compensation that is being mentioned here.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Most congregations today have some system of paid ministry in place. What are the scriptures in support of this?

I know some view it as necessary to promote the gospel, while others consider it a hindrance because the church is often viewed by the masses as just big business. What is your take?

Jesus said, "the hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep." (John 10:13) Discuss.
First of all, why does scripture necessarily have to support the idea? Scripture doesn't support the idea of using air conditioning or hard bound books, yet we use both of them.

But in the gospels, Jesus directs his apostles to go out two-by-two without money, and to stay in the home of one who receives them, eating what they provide. The only difference here is that money has been substituted for food.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
First of all, why does scripture necessarily have to support the idea? Scripture doesn't support the idea of using air conditioning or hard bound books, yet we use both of them.
but scripture makes a case against the idea...
mt 21:12 Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’[a] but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’”
making a profit off of someone else's idea, especially without consent, is illegal...
that is why we have copyright protection laws... the thing is, what is god gona do with all that money... :shrug:
certainly not help those in need...:sarcastic

But in the gospels, Jesus directs his apostles to go out two-by-two without money, and to stay in the home of one who receives them, eating what they provide. The only difference here is that money has been substituted for food.

no, not really, you can't but a luxury car or a posh home with a sack of potatoes... ;)
 
Top