Shape of Jesus' Cross

Many biblical scholars have given different interpretations as to the shape of the cross Jesus was put on. Isn't there a record by any of the witnesses as to the actual shape of the cross? According to a video I watched earlier of a christian speaker, he said the Quran has no proof or evidence that Jesus was not crucified and the Bible has evidence as there were many witnesses present to observe this event. In this case wouldn't some of these witnesses note the actual shape of the cross Jesus was put on. Can someone elaborate on this?

To the best of my knowledge , no one has questioned the historicity of crucifixian as a form of degrading capital punishment used liberally by the Romans. Why would you expect a description of that which was common. Sorry, but the absence of such anecdotal evidence in no way constitutes evidence in favor of the Muslim narrative.

I would like to mention that there were no witnesses who recorded the crucifixion of Jesus. According to the Gospels, his disciples fled when Jesus was arrested. So we really don't have eye witness accounts to the crucifixion.

As for the shape, there would have been no reason to even record that, as Jayhawker Soule stated. It was a common practice.

you can be" crucified " without being put on the cross. That was a roman practice. While they felt no need to elaborate what a cross was or what it looked like -how were they to know the practice would stop & those in years to come could not relate. The upheavel during the time when he lived is best described as a lot of people not able to find the things he did & the things he spoke of as importance both politicaly & in many influencial social circles. it was a powder keg of values & opinions placeing the battle of beliefs in a great surgence in self proclaimed prophets.
to punish those who did not conform was common. to see that his messages still remain is a great thing!

Jayhawker Soule said:

To the best of my knowledge , no one has questioned the historicity of crucifixian as a form of degrading capital punishment used liberally by the Romans. Why would you expect a description of that which was common. Sorry, but the absence of such anecdotal evidence in no way constitutes evidence in favor of the Muslim narrative.

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fallingblood said:

I would like to mention that there were no witnesses who recorded the crucifixion of Jesus. According to the Gospels, his disciples fled when Jesus was arrested. So we really don't have eye witness accounts to the crucifixion.

As for the shape, there would have been no reason to even record that, as Jayhawker Soule stated. It was a common practice.

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Im not saying it goes in favour of the muslim narrative but you see the one of the strong evidences that is used in debates is that there were witnesses to prove the crucifixion actually took place and since the cross is sort of regarded as the symbol of Christianity I was thinking there would be a record as to the shape.

But as "fallingblood" said, all his disciples deserted him, which is Matthew 26:56 if im not mistaken? So in that case who were the witnesses and how did it get recorded in the Bible?

wackybasith said:

... I was thinking there would be a record as to the shape.

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I cannot think of any reason why anyone would wast time describing the 'cross' at a time and in a place where this type of capital punishment was all too common. Laura and Lawrence Nelson were lynched in 1911. Find a description of the rope.

wackybasith said:

Many biblical scholars have given different interpretations as to the shape of the cross Jesus was put on. Isn't there a record by any of the witnesses as to the actual shape of the cross? According to a video I watched earlier of a christian speaker, he said the Quran has no proof or evidence that Jesus was not crucified and the Bible has evidence as there were many witnesses present to observe this event. In this case wouldn't some of these witnesses note the actual shape of the cross Jesus was put on. Can someone elaborate on this?

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the shape was elaborated on by the writers...when recording the events of the execution, they used the greek word stau‧ros′

In classical & Koine Greek, stau‧ros′ meant an upright stake, or pale.

The writers Peter and Paul also use the word xy′lon to refer to the instrument Jesus was nailed to. And this is further evidence that it was an upright pole without a crossbeam because that is what xy′lon was. In the Greek Septuagint version of the Hebrew scriptures, xy′lon is the word used at Ezr 6:11 (1 Esdras 6:31), and there it is spoken of as a beam on which the violator of law was to be hanged, its the same word as in Ac 5:30; 10:39 to do with Jesus death.

Onkara said:

The cross, according to Maurice Nicholl, has esoteric symbolisms.

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So does Fruit Loops ...

Pegg said:

In the Greek Septuagint version of the Hebrew scriptures, xy′lon is the word used at Ezr 6:11 (1 Esdras 6:31), and there it is spoken of as a beam on which the violator of law was to be hanged, its the same word as in Ac 5:30; 10:39 to do with Jesus death.

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This has all the explanatory power (and evidentiary force) as does noting that someone was crucified on a crucifix. The word used in Ezra is simply a term for wood; the rest is inferred by context.

wackybasith said:

Many biblical scholars have given different interpretations as to the shape of the cross Jesus was put on.

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Which ones?

Pegg said:

the shape was elaborated on by the writers...when recording the events of the execution, they used the greek word stau‧ros′

In classical & Koine Greek, stau‧ros′ meant an upright stake, or pale.

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:banghead3:computer:

angellous_evangellous said:

Which ones?

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I'm not sure of the exact names of the scholars but I've been reading about this on various sites and its clear that there are different interpretations and as Pegg mentioned it was a straight pole without a cross beam which is the belief of the JW if I'm not mistaken whereas a lot of other Christians believe in the cross with the cross beam

Pegg said:

the shape was elaborated on by the writers...when recording the events of the execution, they used the greek word stau‧ros′

In classical & Koine Greek, stau‧ros′ meant an upright stake, or pale.

The writers Peter and Paul also use the word xy′lon to refer to the instrument Jesus was nailed to. And this is further evidence that it was an upright pole without a crossbeam because that is what xy′lon was. In the Greek Septuagint version of the Hebrew scriptures, xy′lon is the word used at Ezr 6:11 (1 Esdras 6:31), and there it is spoken of as a beam on which the violator of law was to be hanged, its the same word as in Ac 5:30; 10:39 to do with Jesus death.

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So according to the original Greek scriptures it is mentioned as an upright pole and not the cross with the cross beam? And what about the english version of the bible used today?

wackybasith said:

I'm not sure of the exact names of the scholars but I've been reading about this on various sites and its clear that there are different interpretations ...

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Oh, I agree that there are different interpretations, but I'd caution against embibing that with the authority of "many scholars."

There aren't "many scholars" that have different interpretations of the cross of Christ, because scholars who are authorities on this topic know something about history and Greek.

Those who don't simply make up crap about it.

wackybasith said:

... as Pegg mentioned it was a straight pole without a cross beam ...

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... quoting Ezra 6:11 for authority. But on who's authority are we to translate as "straight pole without a cross beam"?

Not sure it matters what was used.

No one is in any doubt what a cross means today. Or has done for hundreds of years.

Actually, I think אָע is Aramaic for wooden pick.

wackybasith said:

Im not saying it goes in favour of the muslim narrative but you see the one of the strong evidences that is used in debates is that there were witnesses to prove the crucifixion actually took place and since the cross is sort of regarded as the symbol of Christianity I was thinking there would be a record as to the shape.

But as "fallingblood" said, all his disciples deserted him, which is Matthew 26:56 if im not mistaken? So in that case who were the witnesses and how did it get recorded in the Bible?

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Some may disagree, but I would say there were no witnesses that ever recorded the crucifixion of Jesus. Later on, added details were added to the narrative, but they are not historical.

Jesus died on a cross like anyone else who was crucified. As was Roman practice, the cross did have a cross beam. It probably looked like an upper case T or possibly a lower case t, if they had in fact put a plaque on top saying what Jesus was being executed for. That was how Romans crucified people.

wackybasith said:

So according to the original Greek scriptures it is mentioned as an upright pole and not the cross with the cross beam? And what about the english version of the bible used today?

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No, it doesn't. When looking at the sources, when the word stauros is used, and described, likened it to the letter T. We can see this in the Epistle of Barnabas (a later date, probably mid to late second century but still in the time period where Koine Greek is used), as well as in the work of Lucian.

There is a reason why the vast majority translate the word stauros to cross with the idea of a cross being a T shape. There simply is not enough evidence to switch that type of idea. Romans crucified victims on crosses.

I see...well I guess there will always be this difference in the shape of the cross between the different christians...but I guess it dosen't matter much to them.

The point about their being witnesses or not is still confusing. According to Matthew 26:56 the disciples fled, and I think its pretty clear. Were there other people witnessing this in that case?

wackybasith said:

I see...well I guess there will always be this difference in the shape of the cross between the different christians...but I guess it dosen't matter much to them.

The point about their being witnesses or not is still confusing. According to Matthew 26:56 the disciples fled, and I think its pretty clear. Were there other people witnessing this in that case?

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None that wrote about the event. There were the Romans who crucified Jesus. The would have been present, but wouldn't have wasted time writing about it as Jesus was just one more Jew that they crucified. There may have been other condemned criminals who were also crucified with Jesus, but they obviously would not have wrote anything. And then there may have been a couple of people who passed by (probably not many if any since we are talking about it being Passover, and most Jews who were coming to Jerusalem for the event would have been there for about a week already) and they wouldn't have paid too much attention as they would have most likely been familiar with the sight.


So no, there were no one witnessing this that reported it. There were some witnesses, as explained above (at the very least, the people who crucified him), but they wouldn't have cared enough to write anything about it as it was just one more Jew that was being crucified.

We have no eyewitness accounts to this event. There is not a single one that we know of.

As for the difference in the cross shape, that really is not a major problem. The vast majority see the cross as it historically would have been, in the shape of a T.