The Credentials of Christ as the Promised Seed

earlwooters said:

Is the name Jesus mentioned in Isaiah? Emmanuel was.

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Jesus is Yeshua, meaning Savior. The word Saviour is mentioned 8 times in Isaiah, and at least 7 of those times it refers to God our Savior, like in 43:3:

"For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour."
As in Hebrews it says:

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever...God...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds...who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high..."

javajo said:

Jesus is Yeshua, meaning Savior. The word Saviour is mentioned 8 times in Isaiah, and at least 7 of those times it refers to God our Savior, like in 43:3:

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Yeshua translated to English is Joshua. We see this name in the OT as well. More so, Yeshua was not a unique name. It was a very common name during that time, so really, any argument surrounding his name is not very strong.

fallingblood said:

Yeshua translated to English is Joshua. We see this name in the OT as well. More so, Yeshua was not a unique name. It was a very common name during that time, so really, any argument surrounding his name is not very strong.

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Yes, good point on the name of Joshua. In my Bible, in the introduction to the Book of Joshua, it says his original name is Hoshea, "Salvation' (Num. 13:8), but Moses evidently changes it to Yehoshua, "Yahweh Is Salvation" (Num. 13:16). He is also called Yeshua, a shortened form of Yehoshua. This is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek name Iesous (Jesus). Thus the Greek title given to the book in the Septuagint is Iesous Naus, "Joshua the Son of Nun." The Latin title is Liber Josue, the "Book of Joshua."His name is symbolic of the fact that although he is the leader of the Israelite nation during the conquest, the Lord is the Conqueror. Anyway Yeshua does mean salvation and savior, too. Its all kinda related in a way.

javajo said:

Yes, good point on the name of Joshua. In my Bible, in the introduction to the Book of Joshua, it says his original name is Hoshea, "Salvation' (Num. 13:8), but Moses evidently changes it to Yehoshua, "Yahweh Is Salvation" (Num. 13:16). He is also called Yeshua, a shortened form of Yehoshua. This is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek name Iesous (Jesus). Thus the Greek title given to the book in the Septuagint is Iesous Naus, "Joshua the Son of Nun." The Latin title is Liber Josue, the "Book of Joshua."His name is symbolic of the fact that although he is the leader of the Israelite nation during the conquest, the Lord is the Conqueror. Anyway Yeshua does mean salvation and savior, too. Its all kinda related in a way.

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Yehashua actually means "Yah saves" rather than "Yah is Salvation" like how Ezekiel means "God strengthens"

Shermana said:

Yehashua actually means "Yah saves" rather than "Yah is Salvation" like how Ezekiel means "God strengthens"

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Thanks! I guess I will just say I believe, "Jesus saves!"

javajo said:

Thanks! I guess I will just say I believe, "Jesus saves!"

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What does he save from exactly?

James Humphreys said:

But to change direction a little, when the Messiah comes, what would convince you personally that that particular person is the Messiah? What would he have to do and say? How would you be convinced he is fulfilling prophecy?

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How would I be convinced he is fulfilling prophecy? Very easily.

BY FULFILLING PROPHECY!

Your second paragraph took 39 words to ask something very simple:

What are the real messianic prophecies?

For a start, take a good hard look at Isaiah 11 and Ezekiel 37. You might even be so bold as to wikipedia the phrase "Jewish Messiah" and see what turns up.

javajo said:

Someone mentioned his name of Immanuel/Emmanuel (God with us). The name is only mentioned twice in Isaiah. Here is the prophecy and the fulfillment.

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14

22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Mathew 1:22-24

Isaiah 7:14 says that a virgin will bear a son. The problem is dealing with the Hebrew word for virgin, which is "almah." According to the Strong's Concordance it means, "virgin, young woman 1a) of marriageable age 1b) maid or newly married." Therefore, the word "almah" does not always mean virgin. The word "occurs elsewhere in the Old Testament only in Genesis 24:43 (”maiden“); Exodus 2:8 (”girl“); Psalm 68:25 (”maidens“); Proverbs 30:19 (”maiden“); Song of Songs 1:3 (”maidens“); 6:8 (”virgins“)."1 Additionally, there is a Hebrew word for virgin: bethulah. If Isaiah 7:14 was meant to mean virgin instead of young maiden, then why wasn't the word used here?
The LXX is a translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek. This translation was made around 200 B.C. by 70 Hebrew scholars. In Isaiah 7:14, they translated the word "almah" into the Greek word "parthenos." According to A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature,2 parthenos means "virgin." This word is used in the New Testament of the Virgin Mary (Matt. 1:23; Luke 1:27) and of the ten virgins in the parable (Matt. 25:1, 7, 11). If the Hebrews translated the Hebrew word "alma" into the Greek word for virgin, then they understood what the Hebrew text meant here.
Why would Isaiah choose to use the word almah and not bethulah? It was probably because he wanted to demonstrate that the virgin would also be a young woman. Is it still a prophecy? Of course. (carm.org)

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I have been told, by people who actually know Hebrew, that in Isaiah 7:14, the woman was ALREADY pregnant. Which means the child in question was born within a year of Isaiah speaking that prophecy to King Ahaz.

Which means all your copy/pasting is for nothing.

Shermana said:

What does he save from exactly?

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I believe he saves us from the penalty of sin, which is death. He paid the penalty, he died and if we trust him that he paid for all our sins then we are saved, so we have eternal life instead of eternal condemnation, basically. I talked about all that earlier in the thread.

Poisonshady313 said:

I have been told, by people who actually know Hebrew, that in Isaiah 7:14, the woman was ALREADY pregnant. Which means the child in question was born within a year of Isaiah speaking that prophecy to King Ahaz.

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Thanks, I understand your point. As a Christian, I believe it has double meaning. We believe it is also a messianic prophecy. Almah, as I understand, is a young woman who is not yet married, so also (should be)a virgin.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
Almah (עלמ&#1492 or plural: alamot (עלמו&#1514 is a Hebrew feminine noun, for a girl who has reached puberty but is still under the shielding protection of her family; she is a young, marriageable (i.e. unmarried) girl. In Bibles, almah is typically translated as virgin, maiden, young woman, damsel or girl. For theological reasons, the meaning and definition of this word (especially the definition of "virgin") can be controversial, particularly when applied to Isaiah 7:14.

javajo said:

Thanks, I understand your point. As a Christian, I believe it has double meaning. We believe it is also a messianic prophecy. Almah as I understand is a young woman who is not yet married, so also a virgin.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
Almah (עלמ&#1492 or plural: alamot (עלמו&#1514 is a Hebrew feminine noun, for a girl who has reached puberty but is still under the shielding protection of her family; she is a young, marriageable (i.e. unmarried) girl. In Bibles, almah is typically translated as virgin, maiden, young woman, damsel or girl. For theological reasons, the meaning and definition of this word (especially the definition of "virgin") can be controversial, particularly when applied to Isaiah 7:14.

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It cannot possibly have a double meaning. It was given at a very specific time in a very specific context. The event in the child's early life would coincide with the end of the threat of two kingdoms towards the Kingdom of Judah.

When you violently rip a verse out of context, you can make it say whatever you want.

Poisonshady313 said:

It cannot possibly have a double meaning. It was given at a very specific time in a very specific context. The event in the child's early life would coincide with the end of the threat of two kingdoms towards the Kingdom of Judah.

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I understand your point and respect it, although I also believe that perhaps it could, as in the Psalms, many of David's Psalms were talking about one thing and while also containing messianic prophecy. Jesus did something vaguely similar when he quoted most of Isaiah 61:1-2. and saying today this scripture is fulfilled in your ears. He stopped short of the phrase, "and the day of vengeance of our God;" Christians believe he fulfilled the first part, but will not fulfill the vengeance part until he comes again.

Here is Isaiah 61:

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; etc...

Here is Jesus fulfilling the first part in Luke 4:

16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. [HE STOPPED HERE - before the day of vengeance deal]

20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

javajo said:

I understand your point and respect it, although I also believe that perhaps it could, as in the Psalms, many of David's Psalms were talking about one thing and while also containing messianic prophecy. Jesus did something vaguely similar when he quoted most of Isaiah 61:1-2. and saying today this scripture is fulfilled in your ears. He stopped short of the phrase, "and the day of vengeance of our God;" Christians believe he fulfilled the first part, but will not fulfill the vengeance part until he comes again.

Here is Isaiah 61:

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; etc...

Here is Jesus fulfilling the first part in Luke 4:

16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. [HE STOPPED HERE - before the day of vengeance deal]

20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

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I noticed you snipped out the part where he said violently taking verses out of context which it seems Jesus did. After saying a few more things after that they tried to throw him off a cliff.

javajo said:

I understand your point and respect it, although I also believe that perhaps it could, as in the Psalms, many of David's Psalms were talking about one thing and while also containing messianic prophecy. Jesus did something vaguely similar when he quoted most of Isaiah 61:1-2. and saying today this scripture is fulfilled in your ears. He stopped short of the phrase, "and the day of vengeance of our God;" Christians believe he fulfilled the first part, but will not fulfill the vengeance part until he comes again.

Here is Isaiah 61:

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; etc...

Here is Jesus fulfilling the first part in Luke 4:

16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. [HE STOPPED HERE - before the day of vengeance deal]

20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

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This is one of those things that lead me to believe that jesus was an idiot. The bit of Isaiah being quoted isn't prophecy at all.

At all.

And I have a feeling the same is true regarding the psalms you're thinking of.

Poisonshady313 said:

How would I be convinced he is fulfilling prophecy? Very easily.

BY FULFILLING PROPHECY!

Your second paragraph took 39 words to ask something very simple:

What are the real messianic prophecies?

For a start, take a good hard look at Isaiah 11 and Ezekiel 37. You might even be so bold as to wikipedia the phrase "Jewish Messiah" and see what turns up.

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To avoid being overly broad, let me ask you, as an example, about one specific prophecy. Do you believe that Malachi 4:5 prophecies the return of Elijah before the Messiah appears? If so, how do you envision Elijah returning? Would he descend in a chariot from the sky? Would he be recognized by the miracles he accomplishes?

Poisonshady313 said:

This is one of those things that lead me to believe that jesus was an idiot. The bit of Isaiah being quoted isn't prophecy at all.

At all.

And I have a feeling the same is true regarding the psalms you're thinking of.

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This is actually a section that many scholars believe was added at a later time. One of the reasons is because the verse Jesus supposedly read from is actually not a single verse at all, but a compilation of multiple verses. I can't remember the exact verses off the top of my head, but basically, it starts with one verse, then jumps back about two chapters in Isaiah, and quotes another verse, and then finishes by continuing with the first verse. From my understanding, that simply would not have been possible with regards as to how scrolls worked.

fallingblood said:

This is actually a section that many scholars believe was added at a later time. One of the reasons is because the verse Jesus supposedly read from is actually not a single verse at all, but a compilation of multiple verses. I can't remember the exact verses off the top of my head, but basically, it starts with one verse, then jumps back about two chapters in Isaiah, and quotes another verse, and then finishes by continuing with the first verse. From my understanding, that simply would not have been possible with regards as to how scrolls worked.

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From the section cited from Luke, Jesus is handed the Isaiah scroll, finds the section, reads from it and hands it back. There was no jumping around that I saw and Jesus alludes to be fullfilling that section since he could heal the blind and what not. I'm not sure but it seemed he may have altered some of the words?!?

This is one example in which they try to kill by trying to throw him off a cliff. I'm not sure how many times they thought Jesus was speaking blasphemy and tried to kill him by stoning or what not.

James Humphreys said:

To avoid being overly broad, let me ask you, as an example, about one specific prophecy. Do you believe that Malachi 4:5 prophecies the return of Elijah before the Messiah appears?

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Yes.

If so, how do you envision Elijah returning? Would he descend in a chariot from the sky? Would he be recognized by the miracles he accomplishes?

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Those I'm not sure of. Perhaps someone who knows more about Elijah and what to expect can come along and fill us in.


The main point of what I'm trying to say is, when you see actual prophecy fulfillment, you'll know that it is what it is, and a lot of stuff to accompany it will be understood as a given. (i.e. when the Messiah does what he's supposed to do, it won't be necessary to dig up paperwork proving that he's from the tribe of Judah) I'm sure I've spoken of those requirements that are so general, they could be fulfilled by a billion people and never be said to be thought of as prophecy fulfillment. i.e. I'm Jewish. We know the Messiah will be Jewish. It does not follow that I'm the fulfillment of messianic prophecy.

Basically, there are things that if they're true, don't mean much, and if it's false, mean everything.

So Jesus was Jewish. I'm not impressed. So it is claimed that he might even be from the house of David. I'm still not impressed.

Here's what will impress me.

It will be in the end of days that the mountain of the Temple of the Lord will be firmly established as the most prominent of the mountains, and it will be exalted up above hills, and peoples will stream to it. Many nations will go and say, "Come, let us go up to the Mountain of the Lord and to the Temple of the God of Jacob, and He will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths." For from Zion shall go forth the Torah, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between many peoples, and will settle the arguments of mighty nations from far away. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning knives; nation will not lift sword against nations, nor will they learn war anymore. They will sit, each man under his vine and fig tree, and none will make them afraid, for the mouth of the Lord, Master of Legions, has spoken. For all the peoples will go forth, each man in the name of his god, but we go forth with the Name of the Lord, our God, forever and ever.

Micah 4:1-5


World peace, in-gathering of the exiles back to the land of Israel, universal knowledge of God, the restoration of the Temple in Jerusalem, etc...

Things that quite obviously have not happened.

The coming of the Messiah will not be so subtle that you'd miss it if you weren't paying attention.

You might even say that the fact that we're having this conversation is proof positive that the Messiah has yet to arrive.

When the Messiah comes, you won't have to ask "how do we know it's him?".

You'll know. Everyone will know.

idav said:

From the section cited from Luke, Jesus is handed the Isaiah scroll, finds the section, reads from it and hands it back. There was no jumping around that I saw and Jesus alludes to be fullfilling that section since he could heal the blind and what not. I'm not sure but it seemed he may have altered some of the words?!?

This is one example in which they try to kill by trying to throw him off a cliff. I'm not sure how many times they thought Jesus was speaking blasphemy and tried to kill him by stoning or what not.

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Yes, in the account the jumping back and forth is smoothed out. However, that doesn't mean it isn't there. If you compare the verse that Jesus was reading in the Gospel of Luke, compared to the actual verse, you will see the difference.

idav said:

From the section cited from Luke, Jesus is handed the Isaiah scroll, finds the section, reads from it and hands it back. There was no jumping around that I saw and Jesus alludes to be fullfilling that section since he could heal the blind and what not. I'm not sure but it seemed he may have altered some of the words?!?

This is one example in which they try to kill by trying to throw him off a cliff. I'm not sure how many times they thought Jesus was speaking blasphemy and tried to kill him by stoning or what not.

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I'd like to point out again that the passage in Isaiah we're talking about was not a prophecy. There was nothing to be fulfilled.