The Credentials of Christ as the Promised Seed

javajo · Jul 19, 2011

Otherright said:
Java Joe, you are in bold
Consider some of the credentials of Jesus as the Messiah:

Before we get started, he wasn't the messiah. He didn't fulfill anything the messiah was suppose to.

His genealogy was available for all to examine in the House of records and was never questioned by the religious leaders who doubted him.

No, but the scriptures allow us to question it, as Matthew and Luke give varying genealogies.

He was born in Bethlehem, the city of King David, as the Scriptures foretold the Messiah would be (Micah 5:2).

Really, Matthew and Luke say so. But...
Mark 6:1contradicts Matthew by identifying Nazareth as Jesus' birthplace.
John 7:41-43 also contradicts Matthew. It has people in a crowd rejecting Jesus as the Messiah because the Messiah was expected to come from Bethlehem in Judea, whereas Jesus was known to have come from Galilee.

He was born at the right time, as revealed by the precise chronology given by the prophet Daniel, After the sixty-two ‘sevens’ (weeks of years or 434 yrs after temple completed),the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.(Daniel 9:26, see 24-26).

Well that settle it. 62 sevens always means Jesus.

He performed miracles which the Old Testament attributed to the Messiah when he appeared and these miracles were recorded by many eyewitnesses.

Really, many eye witnesses? Care to cite some for me? I think you know this is false.

These along with the many prophecies he fulfilled would indicate that he was indeed the stone the builders rejected, the chief corner stone and foundation of the Christian faith.

No doubt that he was the chief cornerstone of Christianity, but that does not make him divine.

I believe Jesus did fulfill prophecy and at his return he will fulfill the rest. The genealogies differ because one was Joseph's and the other was Mary's. Nothing about Luke and John takes away from the fact he was born in Bethlehem. He was crucified exactly when Daniel predicted. He did perform miracles as recorded in the New Testament by the eyewitnesses. And Jesus is Divine.

javajo · Jul 19, 2011

earlwooters said:
Go to the well. Ask Jewish people if Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus was a Jew. If he was the Messiah, they would know! How can a person who is not Jewish, tell them who is their Messiah and who is not? Do you believe them to be that ignorant? The Tanakh gives several specifications as to who the messiah will be. He will be a descendent of King David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Jeremiah 23:5), observant of Jewish law (Isaiah 11:2-5), a righteous judge (Jeremiah 33:15), and a great military leader. These are things Jesus was not.

He was the stone the builders rejected. Of course the Jews rejected him as prophecy said. There are Messianic Jews today who believe in Jesus. He is in David lineage and he did no sin. He will come again as a righteous judge and king.

javajo · Jul 19, 2011

All the other posts I have read here could be challenged, its too much for me to do right now and fruitless as it is clear that people have made up their mind that they do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. That is fine with me. I, however believe he is the Messiah and one day soon I believe he'll back me up on that.

Otherright · Jul 19, 2011

javajo said:
I believe Jesus did fulfill prophecy and at his return he will fulfill the rest. The genealogies differ because one was Joseph's and the other was Mary's. Nothing about Luke and John takes away from the fact he was born in Bethlehem. He was crucified exactly when Daniel predicted. He did perform miracles as recorded in the New Testament by the eyewitnesses. And Jesus is Divine.

Where of the testimonies of the eyewitnesses? Show me a written record of an eye witness.

javajo · Jul 19, 2011

Otherright said:
Where of the testimonies of the eyewitnesses? Show me a written record of an eye witness.

Mathew Mark Luke John Peter James...

Otherright · Jul 19, 2011

javajo said:
Mathew Mark Luke John Peter James...

First, Luke wasn't an eyewitness and says so in the first 4 verses of his gospel.

Second, you can't prove that the Gospel writers even wrote their attributed Gospels.

Third, Peter and James never mention a miracle attributed to Jesus in their writings, in fact, none do, outside the Gospels.

fallingblood · Jul 19, 2011

javajo said:
All the other posts I have read here could be challenged, its too much for me to do right now and fruitless as it is clear that people have made up their mind that they do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. That is fine with me. I, however believe he is the Messiah and one day soon I believe he'll back me up on that.

That is the point of a debate, to challenge. You posted your opinions in a debate forum, under General Religious Debates. Of course people are going to come back and state why they believe you to be wrong, and they assume you will challenge them as well. If that wasn't the point, then why post in a debate forum anyway?

fallingblood · Jul 19, 2011

javajo said:
I believe Jesus did fulfill prophecy and at his return he will fulfill the rest.

That's fine and dandy; however, it really won't convince anyone unless they rely on blind faith as well.

Now, if Jesus does come again, and fulfill Messianic expectancy, then yes, he could be considered Messiah. However, as it stands, he failed.

The genealogies differ because one was Joseph's and the other was Mary's.

Nope. Both of them are the genealogies of Joseph. It would have been pointless to trace the lineage through Mary. That simply was not how it was done. And it definitely proves anything, making that genealogy basically moot. Then considering that the two authors knew nothing of each other, there is no reason to assume one genealogy is of Mary. Especially when they both state, with out question, that they are tracing the lineage through Joseph.

Nothing about Luke and John takes away from the fact he was born in Bethlehem.

Mark and John both state that he was from Nazareth. Paul mentions nothing of it. Matthew and Luke can't even agree on any of the aspects of them getting to Bethlehem. Matthew has the family of Jesus living in Bethlehem. Luke has them traveling there for a census that never occurred during that time. And that is only the tip of iceberg of problems.

He was crucified exactly when Daniel predicted.

Nope. Daniel never predicted that the Messiah would be crucified. He never predicted anyone would be crucified. The Messiah, as far as the sources tell us, was never meant to be crucified, simply because he wasn't supposed to be killed.

More so, the Gospels don't even agree when Jesus was crucified. John states it was the day before the Passover. Mark, Matthew, and Luke state it was on the day of Passover. And in addition, scholars don't even know for sure when Jesus died anyways (they can narrow it down to a possible year or two, but then they still are not certain). So no.

He did perform miracles as recorded in the New Testament by the eyewitnesses.

Otherright covered this very well, so I will just refer to him.

And Jesus is Divine.

Statement of faith, not fact.

javajo · Jul 19, 2011

Otherright said:
First, Luke wasn't an eyewitness and says so in the first 4 verses of his gospel.

Second, you can't prove that the Gospel writers even wrote their attributed Gospels.

Third, Peter and James never mention a miracle attributed to Jesus in their writings, in fact, none do, outside the Gospels.

Well, I believe the whole New Testament, especially the Gospels is good enough a witness for me. Peter put it this way describing what the transfiguration:

16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 2 Peter 1

Peter also said:

34 Then Peter began to speak: ... You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. 39 We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosenby us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name. Acts 10

On his resurrection:

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 1 Cor. 15

Also if u read in Acts 1&2 and further, they talk about how they were witnesses to all Jesus did. So its good enough, way good enough for me at least.

javajo · Jul 19, 2011

fallingblood said:
That's fine and dandy; however, it really won't convince anyone unless they rely on blind faith as well.

Now, if Jesus does come again, and fulfill Messianic expectancy, then yes, he could be considered Messiah. However, as it stands, he failed.
Nope. Both of them are the genealogies of Joseph. It would have been pointless to trace the lineage through Mary. That simply was not how it was done. And it definitely proves anything, making that genealogy basically moot. Then considering that the two authors knew nothing of each other, there is no reason to assume one genealogy is of Mary. Especially when they both state, with out question, that they are tracing the lineage through Joseph.
Mark and John both state that he was from Nazareth. Paul mentions nothing of it. Matthew and Luke can't even agree on any of the aspects of them getting to Bethlehem. Matthew has the family of Jesus living in Bethlehem. Luke has them traveling there for a census that never occurred during that time. And that is only the tip of iceberg of problems.
Nope. Daniel never predicted that the Messiah would be crucified. He never predicted anyone would be crucified. The Messiah, as far as the sources tell us, was never meant to be crucified, simply because he wasn't supposed to be killed.

More so, the Gospels don't even agree when Jesus was crucified. John states it was the day before the Passover. Mark, Matthew, and Luke state it was on the day of Passover. And in addition, scholars don't even know for sure when Jesus died anyways (they can narrow it down to a possible year or two, but then they still are not certain). So no.
Otherright covered this very well, so I will just refer to him.
Statement of faith, not fact.

I simply disagree with you.

Otherright · Jul 19, 2011

javajo said:
Well, I believe the whole New Testament, especially the Gospels is good enough a witness for me. Peter put it this way describing what the transfiguration:

16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 2 Peter 1

Peter also said:

34 Then Peter began to speak: ... You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. 39 We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosenby us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name. Acts 10

On his resurrection:

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 1 Cor. 15

Also if u read in Acts 1&2 and further, they talk about how they were witnesses to all Jesus did. So its good enough, way good enough for me at least.

Why would you believe that? The Gospels vary tremendously in their telling of these events.

A point of note: The resurrection is not a miracle attributed to Jesus, it is a miracle containing Jesus, but attributed to God.

So, what. Luke says people saw it. If I told you I could fly and you didn't see it, but someone who may or may not know me said they saw me fly, would you believe it?
The fact is, there is no historical documentation of eyewitness accounts to the miracles attributed to Jesus.

From a mythographical perspective, there is no difference between the stories in the bible and any other comparative basis.

javajo · Jul 19, 2011

fallingblood said:
That is the point of a debate, to challenge. You posted your opinions in a debate forum, under General Religious Debates. Of course people are going to come back and state why they believe you to be wrong, and they assume you will challenge them as well. If that wasn't the point, then why post in a debate forum anyway?

You're right that its a debate forum and all. Its way too much work to debate every point and it takes me forever to do the quotes and stuff. I am sure from your posts that you do not believe Jesus is the Messiah and I am not going to try to persuade you that he is. I believe he is, I believe his credentials are quite valid. I thought I would share them to those who may be open to the what I believe is the truth. Its fine with me that others do not believe Jesus is the Messiah, lots of people don't. I'm just saying I do, I am convinced of it but I'm not going to try to convince people who don't. I can only share what I believe is the truth, and I really do believe it is.

javajo · Jul 19, 2011

Otherright said:
Why would you believe that? The Gospels vary tremendously in their telling of these events.

A point of note: The resurrection is not a miracle attributed to Jesus, it is a miracle containing Jesus, but attributed to God.

So, what. Luke says people saw it. If I told you I could fly and you didn't see it, but someone who may or may not know me said they saw me fly, would you believe it?
The fact is, there is no historical documentation of eyewitness accounts to the miracles attributed to Jesus.

From a mythographical perspective, there is no difference between the stories in the bible and any other comparative basis.

They said they were eyewitnesses and recorded it for us. I believe them, I have no good reason not to. Again, this is just what I believe, I am not asking you to believe it if you don't. I will say I am quite certain that Jesus is the Messiah, and that is just my belief.

fallingblood · Jul 19, 2011

javajo said:
You're right that its a debate forum and all. Its way too much work to debate every point and it takes me forever to do the quotes and stuff. I am sure from your posts that you do not believe Jesus is the Messiah and I am not going to try to persuade you that he is. I believe he is, I believe his credentials are quite valid. I thought I would share them to those who may be open to the what I believe is the truth. Its fine with me that others do not believe Jesus is the Messiah, lots of people don't. I'm just saying I do, I am convinced of it but I'm not going to try to convince people who don't. I can only share what I believe is the truth, and I really do believe it is.

So basically, you're just trying to preach to us? Really not the place to do that.

fallingblood · Jul 19, 2011

javajo said:
They said they were eyewitnesses and recorded it for us. I believe them, I have no good reason not to. Again, this is just what I believe, I am not asking you to believe it if you don't. I will say I am quite certain that Jesus is the Messiah, and that is just my belief.

No they didn't. Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John never state they are eyewitnesses. Acts never states that the author is an eyewitness. Paul never states to be an eyewitness. There is no one in the Bible who claims to be an eyewitness to the miracles of Jesus.

Otherright · Jul 19, 2011

javajo said:
They said they were eyewitnesses and recorded it for us. I believe them, I have no good reason not to. Again, this is just what I believe, I am not asking you to believe it if you don't. I will say I am quite certain that Jesus is the Messiah, and that is just my belief.

Luke did not say he was an eyewitness, and they all tell different stories. Matthew, Mark, Luke (the account attributed to him), and John all have different accounts of the events.

If they all knew one another, and they were all there together, how could they have such varying details. The fact is, these gospels were written far after the fact, between 55AD with Mark, and 90-105 with John.

I'm also thoroughly convinced that Paul had absolutely no idea that miracles were even attributed to Jesus.

javajo · Jul 19, 2011

Otherright said:
Luke did not say he was an eyewitness, and they all tell different stories. Matthew, Mark, Luke (the account attributed to him), and John all have different accounts of the events.

If they all knew one another, and they were all there together, how could they have such varying details. The fact is, these gospels were written far after the fact, between 55AD with Mark, and 90-105 with John.

I'm also thoroughly convinced that Paul had absolutely no idea that miracles were even attributed to Jesus.

I think that despite seeming contradictions which theologians have written a lot of books that help people understand better, they have harmony as well. They are different accounts written by different men each with their own slant and emphasis on different aspects. Its like if we witnessed that or even a car accident, everyone is going to give different accounts of what happened but when its all analyzed a clear picture should emerge. I don't really want to argue about this, I feel as if I'd be trying to convince someone to believe as I do and that would be like proselytizing. Lol, I don't know why I put it in debate, because I don't like to debate but I do like to share. I believe that whether people believe the Bible or not they will find good reasons to believe or not to believe. For me it works wonderfully because I believe I am definitely a hopeless sinner in need of a savior and I find no other remedy for my sin but that Christ died for me. So for me personally, I cast all my hope on him and him alone and it works for me. But that's just me.

fallingblood · Jul 19, 2011

javajo said:
I think that despite seeming contradictions which theologians have written a lot of books that help people understand better, they have harmony as well. They are different accounts written by different men each with their own slant and emphasis on different aspects. Its like if we witnessed that or even a car accident, everyone is going to give different accounts of what happened but when its all analyzed a clear picture should emerge. I don't really want to argue about this, I feel as if I'd be trying to convince someone to believe as I do and that would be like proselytizing. Lol, I don't know why I put it in debate, because I don't like to debate but I do like to share. I believe that whether people believe the Bible or not they will find good reasons to believe or not to believe. For me it works wonderfully because I believe I am definitely a hopeless sinner in need of a savior and I find no other remedy for my sin but that Christ died for me. So for me personally, I cast all my hope on him and him alone and it works for me. But that's just me.

You're already coming close to proselytizing.

The problem with the car accident analogy is that you still have some basics to go on. You don't have something so vastly different, such as the Gospels disagreeing on which day Jesus died. That is vastly different, and really has nothing to do with perspective.

javajo · Jul 19, 2011

fallingblood said:
No they didn't. Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John never state they are eyewitnesses. Acts never states that the author is an eyewitness. Paul never states to be an eyewitness. There is no one in the Bible who claims to be an eyewitness to the miracles of Jesus.

I posted some scripture that says otherwise, I will post one again from 2 Peter about his transfiguration which I consider a miracle, because I can't do it:

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Peter also said this in Acts 2:

22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

The miracles of Jesus are recorded for us all and were seen by many:

This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. John 2:11

I believe for myself that I have God's (who cannot lie) inspired Word. I believe it, personally. As I said, people can find all kinds of reasons to believe or not, I just happen to be one who believes in Jesus.

fallingblood · Jul 19, 2011

javajo said:
I posted some scripture that says otherwise, I will post one again from 2 Peter about his transfiguration which I consider a miracle, because I can't do it:

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Peter also said this in Acts 2:

22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

The miracles of Jesus are recorded for us all and were seen by many:

This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

I believe for myself that I have God's (who cannot lie) inspired Word. I believe it, personally. As I said, people can find all kinds of reasons to believe or not, I just happen to be one who believes in Jesus.

First, Peter never wrote 2 Peter. Peter was an illiterate peasant. Acts 4:13 states that. So no, Peter wrote nothing, as he simply couldn't.

As for Acts, that is of dubious nature anyway. However, it still doesn't claim to be from an eyewitness. You're talking about an author who is claiming to remember the words of Peter, who spoke around half a century before hand.

And really, miracles were not unique to Jesus. During that same time, we see Josephus having mentioned a handful of other miracle workers.

The Credentials of Christ as the Promised Seed

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