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Did Jesus say he was God???

waitasec

waitasec

Veteran Member
Shermana said:
John 20

21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

However, there is evidence that much of the ending of John is interpolation. Starting with 24-31 and Chapter 21. Tatian specifically discluded the whole Locked Room affair in the Diatesseron.
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thanks...

i'm of the opinion the entire gospel of john is considering the synoptic gospels.
 
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A

American Patriot

Member
Shermana said:
"

  • Jehovah knows “all things.” (1 John 3:20; Psalm 147:5)
  • Jesus knows “all things.” (John 16:30)"
Let's just start with that one, apparently Jesus doesn't even know the "day or hour". Notice that it's the Disciples who say "You know everything!" It's a statement of being impressed with his wisdom. However, Jesus does not know on what day the judgment will come. Mark 13:32

New International Version (©1984)
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
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Thank you sooo much!!! You just keep proving my points! As the man Christ Jesus, Jesus knew nothing, but as God he knew everything!


Joh 21:17
(17) He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

____Jesus as a Man____Jesus as God____
download

Shermana said:
"As for Jesus being "Creator", that fits perfectly with the general idea of the "Logos" (in Philo's terms) as the Chief Foreman of the Angels during the Creation period. God was the CEO and Architect, Jesus was the Head Builder.
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Isa 44:24
(24) Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;


Isa 37:16
(16) O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.


Shermana said:
"
The "I am " thing, as discussed, is a name, and the grammatical context, as many translations like Goodspeed's "American Translation" point out, that Jesus was saying "Before Abraham was, I was". The name itself is "I shall be as I shall be". In the context Yashua uses the word "to be", he is agreeing in the past tense of Abraham, where the word for "Came to be" can also be used as "Shall be". Did Jesus say "Before Abraham shall be, I am"? No? Why not? I like how you say "The" I am. When did it get an article?
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Joh 8:24
(24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
 
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A

American Patriot

Member
idav said:
I've never thought that. Yahweh is his own being who is named Yahweh. All it means is appointing Jesus as a king just like what a lord is and like king David was.
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Jesus' name is Yahweh!

Joh 17:11
(11) And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh 16:14-15
(14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
(15) All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Joh 5:43
(43) I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Also if Yeshua is not Yahweh then you have two saviors!

Isa 43:11
(11) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


 
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Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
ApostolicPeter said:

You have never demonstrated from the Bible the disciples ever forgiving sins, and you can't. Do you have priests or the equivalent thereof hearing confessions in your church/organization? If not, why not?

Obviously you have the Catholic interpretation of this scripture but not the Biblical one. Until you can PROVE from the BIBLE the disciples had power to forgive sins in the way that only God can, we will reject or ignore your claims.
Click to expand...

So you think that part is spurious? Nice;.
 
ApostolicPeter

ApostolicPeter

Member
Shermana said:
So you think that part is spurious? Nice;.
Click to expand...

Absolutely not. Your interpretation is what is spurious. You must study to show thyself approved to arrive at the correct Bible interpretation.

You're the one who takes facts, and when they contradict your theology, you declare them to be "spurious."
 
idav

idav

Being
Premium Member
American Patriot said:
Jesus' name is Yahweh!

Joh 17:11
(11) And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh 16:14-15
(14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
(15) All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Joh 5:43
(43) I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Also if Yeshua is not Yahweh then you have two saviors!

Isa 43:11
(11) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Click to expand...
Those verses only further prove that Jesus had a God named Yahweh. It would be the same as if you or anyone said "i come in the name of Jesus". Does that make us jesus even though Jesus prayed that we be "one" with him? No of course not it is a representative and nothing more.
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
ApostolicPeter said:
Absolutely not. Your interpretation is what is spurious. You must study to show thyself approved to arrive at the correct Bible interpretation.

You're the one who takes facts, and when they contradict your theology, you declare them to be "spurious."
Click to expand...

Why is my interpretation spurious? You make the claim there is no evidence of the Apostles actually forgiving sins, even though it specifically says that Jesus gives them the power to forgive sins. If anything, your doubt on whether they really had the power to forgive only strengthens my position that the last passage in John 20 in the locked room is a total interpolation.
 
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A

American Patriot

Member
idav said:
Those verses only further prove that Jesus had a God named Yahweh. It would be the same as if you or anyone said "i come in the name of Jesus". Does that make us jesus even though Jesus prayed that we be "one" with him? No of course not it is a representative and nothing more.
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No, Jesus said " I am come in my Fathers name!" What name did Jesus come in? "Jesus" of course, because the name Jesus is the name of the Father or Yahweh!

Mat 28:19
(19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

What is the name of the Father? Jesus!
Joh 5:43
(43) I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

What name did the disciples baptize in?

Act 2:38
(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 19:5
(5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


Act 8:16
(16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)



 
ApostolicPeter

ApostolicPeter

Member
Shermana said:
Why is my interpretation spurious? You make the claim there is no evidence of the Apostles actually forgiving sins, even though it specifically says that Jesus gives them the power to forgive sins. If anything, your doubt on whether they really had the power to forgive only strengthens my position that the last passage in John 20 in the locked room is a total interpolation.
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For somebody who claims to be an expert on words, you don't seem to be able to grasp my simple statements. I said you are unable to show me the disciples forgiving sins (as you interpret this passage.) I absolutely believe Jesus statement as absolute truth.
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
ApostolicPeter said:
For somebody who claims to be an expert on words, you don't seem to be able to grasp my simple statements. I said you are unable to show me the disciples forgiving sins (as you interpret this passage.) I absolutely believe Jesus statement as absolute truth.
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Okay, so once again, you agree that since there's no evidence of the Disciples ever forgiving sins, that means Jesus didn't really give them such power even though it says so in John 20:23, thus, you are default agreeing that it's evidence of an interpolation. Otherwise, it looks like Jesus gave them that power whether it shows them doing so or not. Likewise, where is the evidence of Jesus' disciples walking on water? Doesn't it say they could do everything Jesus did?

And I'd love to see this quote where I claim to be an expert on words. Do I have to declare to be an expert on Meteorology to say the Sky is Blue?
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
Click to expand...
One more time

If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
Click to expand...
Now if you don't think this passage is an interpolation, what do you think it means?
 
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Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
Also, for the record, when it says "Who but God can forgive sins"? that doesn't mean that only God can forgive sins, that is one person's exclamation, it doesn't rule out the possibility of a representative forgiving sins.
 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
American Patriot said:
Lol I love how you didn't reply to me Shermana! Maybe you just couldn't have!
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Like how you didn't reply to the "Last Adam is a life giving Spirit" 10 times in a row?

Your last post shows that you completely ignored everything I said, you carry on in your belief that "invoking" and "doing something in the name of" are the same thing, you dodged what I said, and you accuse me of not replying? Nothing in your post effectively proves your claim, but says a lot about what you consider to be proof texts.

Jesus came "in the name of" His Father, that doesn't mean He invoked him, it means he did something in his representative stead.

I may have said it here, Matthew 28:19 is most likely an interpolation, Eusebius quotes it 20x and only ever uses "In my name". Where do the Disciples ever baptize in all three names?

You won't even accept that "Deity" in the "Godhood" sense is a Qualitative description, as the examples I used earlier "The King achieved deity after his death".
 
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A

American Patriot

Member
Shermana said:
Like how you didn't reply to the "Last Adam is a life giving Spirit" 10 times in a row?

Your last post shows that you completely ignored everything I said, you carry on in your belief that "invoking" and "doing something in the name of" are the same thing, you dodged what I said, and you accuse me of not replying? Nothing in your post effectively proves your claim, but says a lot about what you consider to be proof texts.
Click to expand...

No, I definitely didn't doge your points! Anyone reading can see that! I didnt reply to the last man Adam because I didn't understand it.. I believe the last man Adam is Jesus! That doesn't prove Jesus is not God! Go look at my post proving He is God!
 
A

American Patriot

Member
Jesus is Jehovah!
​


  • Jehovah knows “all things.” (1 John 3:20; Psalm 147:5)
  • Jesus knows “all things.” (John 16:30)


  • Jehovah is the only one who knows the hearts of all men. (1 Kings 8:39; Jeremiah 17:9-10)
  • Jesus knows the hearts of all men. (John 2:24-25; Rev. 2:18, 23)


  • Jehovah is our sanctifier. (Exodus 31:13)
  • Jesus sanctifies us. (Hebrews 10:10)


  • Jehovah is our peace. (Judges 6:23)
  • Jesus is our peace. (Ephesians 2:14)


  • Jehovah is our righteousness. (Jeremiah 23:6)
  • Jesus is our righteousness. ( 1 Corinthians 1:30)


  • Jehovah is our healer. (Exodus 15:26)
  • Jesus heals us. (Acts 9:34)


  • Jehovah God dwells in us. (2 Corinthians 6:16)
  • Jesus is in us. (Romans 8:10)2.


  • Jehovah is the giver of life who will not allow His people to be “snatched” out of His hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39)
  • Jesus is the giver of life who will not allow His people to be “snatched” out of His hand. (John 10:28)


  • Jehovah’s voice is “like the roar of rushing waters.” (Ezekiel 43:2)
  • Jesus’ “voice was like the sound of rushing waters.” (Revelation 1:15)


  • Jehovah is present everywhere. (Proverbs 15:3; Jeremiah 23:24; I Kings 8:27)
  • Jesus is omnipresent. (John 1:48; Matthew 18:20; 28:20)


  • Jehovah’s nature does not change. (Malachi 3:6)
  • Jesus’ nature does not change. (Hebrews 13:8)3.


  • Jehovah is the only God we are to “serve.”
    (2 Kings 17:35)
  • Jesus is to be served. (Col. 3:24)


  • Jehovah is the only God to be “worshipped.” (Exodus 34:14)
  • Jesus receives the same honor and “worship” that the Father receives. (John 5:23; Revelation 5:11-14 compare with Rev. 4:10-11)4.
  • No angel can receive “worship.” (Revelation 22:8-9)


  • Jehovah the Lord is to be set apart as holy. (Isaiah 8:12b-13)
  • Jesus as Jehovah is to be set apart as holy. (1 Peter 3:14b-15a)5.


  • Jehovah’s glory is not to be given to another.
    (Isaiah 42:8)
  • Jesus shares Jehovah’s glory. (Jn. 17:5)


  • God’s name is Jehovah (or Yahweh--YHWH). (Isaiah 42:8)
  • Jesus has Jehovah’s name. (John 17:11; John 16:14-15)


  • Jehovah is the only God to be mentioned in prayer. (Exodus 23:13)
  • Christians are to pray to Jesus.
    (John 14:14)


  • Calling upon Jehovah (Joel 2:32)
  • is the same as calling upon Jesus. (Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9-13)


  • Jehovah “the true God” is called “eternal life.” (1 John 5:20)
  • Jesus is called “the eternal life.” (1 John 1:2)


  • Jehovah is the “mighty God.” (Jeremiah 32:17-18; Isaiah 10:20-21)
  • Jesus is the “mighty God”
    (Isaiah 9:6) who is “Almighty.” (Revelation 1:7-8) THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD. (1 Timothy 1:17; Isaiah 44:8)


  • Jehovah is an “everlasting light.” (Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 60:19-20)
  • Jesus is the light of men and the everlasting light of the future city. (John 1:4-9; Revelation 21:23)


  • Jehovah is “the first and the last.” (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12)
  • Jesus is the “first and the last.”

  • (Revelation 1:17-18; 22:12-13, 20)
  • Jehovah is the “Alpha and the Omega.” (Revelation 1:8; Revelation 21:6-7)
  • Jesus is the “Alpha and the Omega.” (Revelation 22:12-13, 20)


  • Jehovah’s title is “the Holy One.” (Isaiah 47:4)
  • Jesus is “the Holy One.” (Acts 3:14; John 6:69)


  • Jehovah is the “stumbling stone” of Israel.
    (Isaiah 8:13-15)
  • Jesus is the “stumbling stone” of Israel. (1 Peter 2:6-8)


  • John the Baptist was to prepare the way for Jehovah. (Isaiah 40:3)
  • The Jehovah who came was Jesus.
    (Mark 1:1-4; John 1:6-7, 23)


  • Jehovah is the one who was “pierced.” (Zechariah 12:10)9.
  • Jesus is the pierced Jehovah. (John 19:34; Revelation 1:7-8)


  • The Jehovah who was sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:13)
  • is Jesus. (Matthew 27:2-6)


  • Jehovah is Lord of the elements. (Psalm 89:8-9)
  • Jesus is Lord of the elements. (Matthew 8:26-27; John 2:7-9) There's just one Lord


  • Jehovah is the great Judge who gives life to whom he wishes and who renders to each man “according” to his “deeds.” (Psalm 98:9; Deuteronomy 32:39; Jeremiah 17:9-10)
  • Jesus is the only judge who gives life to whom he wishes and renders to each man “according” to his “deeds.” (John 5:21-22; Revelation 2:18, 23)


  • Jehovah is the only one who can forgive sins. (Mark 2:7; Daniel 9:9)
  • Jesus forgives sins. (Mark 2:10-11; Luke 24:46-47)


  • Jehovah is the great “shepherd” who leads his people to “the spring of the water of life.” (Psalm 23:1-2; Revelation 21:6-7)
  • Jesus as the “shepherd” of His people, leads them “to springs of the water of life.” (John 10:11-18; Revelation 7:17) THERE IS ONLY ONE SHEPHERD --John 10:16.


  • Jehovah is “Lord of Lords.” (Deuteronomy 10:17)
  • Jesus is “Lord of Lords.” (Revelation 17:14; 19:16)
  • The Father is Lord of all. (Matthew 11:25;
    Acts 17:24)
  • Jesus is “Lord of all.” (Acts 10:36) THERE IS ONLY ONE LORD. (Jude 4)


  • Jehovah is the Savior. (Isaiah 45:21-22)
  • Jesus is the Savior. (Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1) THERE IS ONLY ONE SAVIOR. (Isaiah 43:11)


  • Jehovah created the universe. (Psalm 102:25-27)
  • Jesus created the universe. (John 1:3; Colossians 1:15-19;10.
  • Hebrews 1:10-12).11. THERE IS ONLY ONE CREATOR. (Isaiah 44:24)


  • Isaiah saw Jehovah. (Isaiah 6:1-5)
  • The Jehovah that Isaiah saw was Jesus. (John 12:41)


  • Jehovah is the I AM. (Exodus 3:13-14 Isaiah 43:10-15,25)
  • Jesus is the I AM.(John 18:5-8 Rev 1:17-18)


  • Jehovah is our husband. (Isaiah 54:5 Jer 31:32)
  • Jesus is our bridegroom. ( Matt 9:15 Matt 25:10 Jn 3:28)
“For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me.”—Isaiah 46:9

Jesus sounds pretty close to God right?!

“You are My witnesses…Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me.…there is no savior besides Me.”—Isaiah 43:10-11
​



____Jesus as a Man____Jesus as God____
download


 
Shermana

Shermana

Heretic
American Patriot said:
No, I definitely didn't doge your points! Anyone reading can see that! I didnt reply to the last man Adam because I didn't understand it.. I believe the last man Adam is Jesus! That doesn't prove Jesus is not God! Go look at my post proving He is God!
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What post proving he is God? The one where you think that "I come in the Father's name" = "My name is the Father's name"?

And just for the record ,Isaiah 9:6, AGAIN, is "A mighty god", I was asking why your translation includes a "The", there is no "ha" there.

And your last post uses the Revelation issues as if we didn't even spend 10 pages on them. If your tactic involves repeating your same tired arguments hoping new readers won't click 10 pages back, well then.

If Jesus is the "Firstborn of All Creation", and the "Last Adam", that by default makes him the "First and Last", which is not a TITLE like Alpha and Omega but more of a statement.

Once again, anyone who says that Jesus is saying he's the Alpha and Omega in Rev 22:13 proves their love of cherry picking and refusal to read it directly. Jesus's messenger (Angel) is delivering a message from the Father. Simple. But not so simple in Trinitarian hands.
 
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idav

idav

Being
Premium Member
American Patriot said:
No, Jesus said " I am come in my Fathers name!" What name did Jesus come in? "Jesus" of course, because the name Jesus is the name of the Father or Yahweh!

Mat 28:19
(19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

What is the name of the Father? Jesus!
Joh 5:43
(43) I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

What name did the disciples baptize in?

Act 2:38
(38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 19:5
(5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


Act 8:16
(16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Click to expand...
Matthew 28:19 is debatebly not authentic.

Again as I stated just saying you come in there name doesnt make you them. Your a representative. Christians do things in Jesus name and sure doesn't make them jesus. Same with jesus doing anything in the fathers name. Again it says they are "one" with jesus as the son is with the father yet we are not jesus just as the son is not the father. Now with that it means baptizing in jesus name means nothing. Does it mean the people doing baptizing are Jesus. Also as Sherman pointed out nobody in the bible baptized in three names.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
American Patriot said:
Actually the Father! And your right! Jesus' name= Yahweh= savior!
Click to expand...

Hebrew: Yahweh or Yeho-wah' in English is: Jehovah.

Jeremiah would be Yir-meyah'

Isaiah would be Yesha'ya'hu

Jesus in Hebrew: Yehoh-shu'a
Jesus in Greek: I-e-sous'

In Hebrew: Yahweh [Yehowah] and Yehohshua are two [2] different names.

The tetragrammaton [Lod, He, Vau, He] is never applied to Yehohshua, [Jesus] but only applied to Yahweh/ Yehowah. [Jehovah].

How true Jesus [Yehohshua] words are proving true [John 17 vs6,26] that Jesus [Yehohshua] manifested God's name [Jehovah], and Jesus declared God's name and will declare God's name.....

Truly, as Jesus said: Hallowed [sacred/holy/ sanctified] will be God's name.
.
 
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