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Free will on the surface

JMiller

Member
So I believe in free will, in that we can choose at any given moment what we engage in, want to do, etc...
I have a harder time believing we can at an instant choose what we fundamentally believe and change its course.

In light of these ideas, where does that leave the idea as a whole?

Wouldn't free will mean also we can choose freely what we believe in at any given moment?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So I believe in free will, in that we can choose at any given moment what we engage in, want to do, etc...
I have a harder time believing we can at an instant choose what we fundamentally believe and change its course.

In light of these ideas, where does that leave the idea as a whole?

Wouldn't free will mean also we can choose freely what we believe in at any given moment?
Belief isn't a spur of the moment thing. It's a process. We're not free to produce hamburgers out of thin air, either. We have to cook and assemble them. but that has nothing to do with the concept of free will.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Theres more to your question than I imagine I'll figure out to my own satisfaction this lifetime.

But my opinion is different to yours. I believe that in the moment we do not have free will. But since it feels like we do I think the lack might be moot. I think that in a bigger time frame i.e.days and weeks months and years we do have free will - for example I believe we can change ourselves over time.
 

JMiller

Member
Belief isn't a spur of the moment thing. It's a process. We're not free to produce hamburgers out of thin air, either. We have to cook and assemble them. but that has nothing to do with the concept of free will.

Would you mind offering your definition of free will?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
So I believe in free will, in that we can choose at any given moment what we engage in, want to do, etc...
I have a harder time believing we can at an instant choose what we fundamentally believe and change its course.

In light of these ideas, where does that leave the idea as a whole?

Wouldn't free will mean also we can choose freely what we believe in at any given moment?

I must admit I am a little confused about what you are asking (it is possibly me being dense).

To me free will is what we do have (even though I know that people on this forum will contradit me), but there are different ways of accepting how free will works.

Imagine a grand master chess player - he can, at anytime in the game see a number of moves "in the future" - i.e. he can fairly be pretty sure of what the outcome will be to any one of his potential moves - mand has already calculated his reply to that.

We, of course, have no way of looking in the future; but, I believe, that any reaction we take to an option is altready "calculated" - and for every act after that.
That is the only way I can imagine free will; because if life offers us choices (which, God has to give us to test us) - but, at the same time he knows what we will do, the above idea is (to me) the only way of reconciling the "free will" with God knowing what we will do. If that makes sense, and if that answers your question............
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Wouldn't free will mean also we can choose freely what we believe in at any given moment?
Yes but we would have to alter our brain wave which can be rather difficult. We have studied our influence on machines and we are able to influence but it is very very little if any. I believe our own influence over our own brains would be similar. We have to be able to influence matter itself.

Science Of The Lost Symbol - Human Influence on Living and Non-living Systems
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Would you mind offering your definition of free will?
I don't know what sojourner's definition is, but this what I suggested in my OP on free will.
"I think a decent working definition of "free will" is just that: the ability to do differently if one wished."
That said, I believe free will is nothing more than an illusion, our actions, all of them including our thoughts, are caused.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I have a harder time believing we can at an instant choose what we fundamentally believe and change its course

this is only a matter of education.

as one becomes educated IF ONE HAS A OPEN MIND their reality changes and their belief around said reality.



Wouldn't free will mean also we can choose freely what we believe in at any given moment?

I dont think you have made any arguement against said statement, otherwords why not??
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
I don't know what sojourner's definition is, but this what I suggested in my OP on free will.
"I think a decent working definition of "free will" is just that: the ability to do differently if one wished."
That said, I believe free will is nothing more than an illusion, our actions, all of them including our thoughts, are caused.


I don't necessarilly believe in your last point; I think that we are able to make a different decision from the one we were going to make - change in our life path for the only way I can describe it- I do believe that we can make the "different coice" - because otherwise, there would be little point of having to go through life - if our "end" would be totally predictable - life would be a sham "conveyor belt" sort of system, one for which there would be no logical reason (my opinion, as a theist)
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I think that we are able to make a different decision from the one we were going to make - change in our life path for the only way I can describe it- I do believe that we can make the "different coice" - because otherwise, there would be little point of having to go through life - if our "end" would be totally predictable - life would be a sham "conveyor belt" sort of system, one for which there would be no logical reason (my opinion, as a theist)
I know that sometimes we regret not going by the first thought that came to us and we cause ourselves to think wrong. I suppose we would have to be able to conquer the influences that sway us.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I don't necessarilly believe in your last point; I think that we are able to make a different decision from the one we were going to make
So why didn't you make that different decision? I say it's because that's what the chain of cause/effects ultimately lead you to doing. For you to have made a different decision there would have had to be some difference in that chain, but there wasn't, so you're stuck with doing what you did and not with what you think you could have done.

I do believe that we can make the "different coice" - because otherwise, there would be little point of having to go through life - if our "end" would be totally predictable - life would be a sham "conveyor belt" sort of system, one for which there would be no logical reason (my opinion, as a theist)
Arguments based on need---in this case your need for meaning---are almost always unconvincing, which is the case here. But if that's what you have to believe in order to get through life, so be it.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
I know that sometimes we regret not going by the first thought that came to us and we cause ourselves to think wrong. I suppose we would have to be able to conquer the influences that sway us.

That, to my mind is the purpose of life; to see if we can learn to make the "right" choice - thereby changing our ways for the better.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
So I believe in free will, in that we can choose at any given moment what we engage in, want to do, etc...
I have a harder time believing we can at an instant choose what we fundamentally believe and change its course.

In light of these ideas, where does that leave the idea as a whole?

Wouldn't free will mean also we can choose freely what we believe in at any given moment?
Why should free will have anything to do with choosing what we believe?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
That said, I believe free will is nothing more than an illusion, our actions, all of them including our thoughts, are caused.
The problem is that in quantum mechanics there are a multiple set of probabilities within a given wave function that all have the same cause.

Quantum mind

In the Copenhagen interpretation, quantum mechanics can only be used to predict the probabilities for different outcomes of pre-specified observations. What constitutes an "observer" or an "observation" is not directly specified by the theory, and the behavior of a system after observation is completely different than the usual behavior. During observation, the wavefunction describing the system collapses to one of several options. If there is no observation, this collapse does not occur, and none of the options ever become less likely.
Unlike classical mechanics, in quantum mechanics, there is no naive way of identifying the true state of the world. The wavefunction that describes a system spreads out into an ever larger superposition of different possible situations. Schrödinger's cat is an illustration of this: after interacting with a quantum system, the von Neumann/Wigner interpretation holds that the wavefunction of the cat describes it as a superposition of dead and alive. The standard interpretation, given by the Copenhagen interpretation is that the Geiger counter has already collapsed the wavefunction.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
"Free will" is the propensity of the wicked to be used as example for the sainted to decree "what not to do." In less compassionate terms, to be a proponent of free will is to be a proponent of slavery. Trafficking in human suffering. Where is the boundary between tolerance and licence, I must ask? That in order to be sanctified, the officials of the temple sent out among the commoners of simple faith these insoluble moral toxins that "sound good," but mean nothing.

Do you know calculus? Do you know what calculus reveals about e.e. cummings? Probably not, but the context of my nonsense suggests math... literature... ellen... whereas "free will" only exists to keep "sin away from god."

Choice... look around. We as all animals have a choice in how we fulfill our need for nutrition. We do not have a choice as to having the requirement of nourishment. If the world were reduced to me and you sitting across from a chicken sandwich, what freedom of will? Have you considered? I have. To the point if I were I and you were my Gwynnies, would my will be free enough to reduce my being to self-serve rotisserie...

And unlike god, I know my Gwynnies... eew... I do not know this person, my Gwynnies would say. Freedom is just having decision space larger than natural imperative... or to quote a more lyrical prophet...

freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Willamena said:
Because there's no mulligans in the game of life. The decision made counts.
Yeah, that too. ;)

iday said:
The problem is that in quantum mechanics there are a multiple set of probabilities within a given wave function that all have the same cause.
No problem because no one operates on the quantum level.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Yeah, that too. ;)

No problem because no one operates on the quantum level.

Cool! That means god cannot exist, I cannot be prophet; and my original assumption must be true - to profess to be prophet is to confess to criminal insanity! Yay! I'm free!

and you have the moral imperative to end me before I unleash armageddon!

The cool thing about "free will" and science - I'm free to accept theory at the level of my scientific understanding, without being required to "believe" in it. Because if we don't operate at the quantum level... well, that's just not possible. :D
 
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