3-0! Thanks to God?

As a hobby, I teach striking at a freestyle MMA gym. My partner teaches ground fighting. He's a wizard on the ground and our talents complement one another greatly, but he is overly religious. We sometimes bump heads on this subject.

At the beginning of sessions, we pray. When the gym closes, he reads scripture, and prays. His devotion is nice, but recently, we cleaned house at an event. We went 3-0, all first round stoppages.

He had a mini-sermon and prayed. One of the fighters, during the session was kind of bouncy and not paying much attention at all. I put my hand on the back of his neck. He looked over and I nodded. I needed to be talking with this kid. He was set for competition in a half an hour and obviously needed some coaching and reassuring.
I was respectful though and bowed my head during.
At the end of the night, he was thankful to God for the victories for the gym. It being late, I didn't want to go there. My reply was, "I think they had a good mindset going in. I think we prepared them well. I think our training and their heart got them the wins tonight."

He vehemently disagreed. God was to be thanked for all the hard work.

Does anyone agree with me, religious or not, that this behavior, while it can have psychological influence on the right people, really doesn't belong there?

Yeah...

It doesn't belong there. It is actually kind of disrespectfull towards the winners who put in all the hard work and training to be the best and what this guy is really doing, whether he realizes it or not, is actually taking credit for it himself because all the praying HE did is what won the matches, not the hardwork of the fighters. He probably doesn't even realize this is what he is doing, but when stripped down to it's bare ugliness, he is saying that is he hadn't prayed so hard and been as faithfull as he was then they would have lost.

Also, I think this kind of attitude is counter-productive to a training environment. The emphasis needs to be placed on training and discipline so the students know that it was hardwork and not wishfull thinking that helped them win so they will continue to work harder.

freethinker44 said:

It doesn't belong there. It is actually kind of disrespectfull towards the winners who put in all the hard work and training to be the best and what this guy is really doing, whether he realizes it or not, is actually taking credit for it himself because all the praying HE did is what won the matches, not the hardwork of the fighters. He probably doesn't even realize this is what he is doing, but when stripped down to it's bare ugliness, he is saying that is he hadn't prayed so hard and been as faithfull as he was then they would have lost.

Also, I think this kind of attitude is counter-productive to a training environment. The emphasis needs to be placed on training and discipline so the students know that it was hardwork and not wishfull thinking that helped them win so they will continue to work harder.

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That's how I feel about it. These guys go into the gym day in and day out, let us yell at them, push them (physically and psychologically), critique them, and all around torture them until they feel prepared to compete.

He won't put anyone in that doesn't have at least the third stripe in jiujitsu. That takes some time. I won't even let you touch one of my heavy bags until you've sat down with me and we have a four hour clinic on the physics of punches. Then I put them on the bag and start teaching technique.

I was a competition fighter for years, and I know exactly what these guys are putting into this and what they are leaving in the cage. I don't take anything from them.

Otherright said:

My reply was, "I think they had a good mindset going in. I think we prepared them well. I think our training and their heart got them the wins tonight."

He vehemently disagreed. God was to be thanked for all the hard work.

Does anyone agree with me, religious or not, that this behavior, while it can have psychological influence on the right people, really doesn't belong there?

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I don't see the two as exclusive.

"Good mindset" plus "their heart"
and
Thankful of God

seem quite similar to me. I realize for you and perhaps others, it is something to separate out.

IMO, the vehement disagreement between two persons on same team is what doesn't really belong there. As if both feel need to be right at expense of other being made "wrong." I'm sure you'll work through this in way that works for you and your role there.

Namaste

Well, we are only getting one side of the story, of course.

That said, it doesn't sound like the other guy was giving ANY credit to the hard work. That's not ok.

I've always had a problem with praying for victory at sporting events.

With the understaning of martial arts I can say it is about "mind set"
The focus is nessessary and while learning any-"way" it comes with a call to realize.
Is not prayer this ?
I say if all agree and are looking at it to support a sense of less tension -
Why not.

Otherright said:

As a hobby, I teach striking at a freestyle MMA gym. My partner teaches ground fighting. He's a wizard on the ground and our talents complement one another greatly, but he is overly religious. We sometimes bump heads on this subject.

At the beginning of sessions, we pray. When the gym closes, he reads scripture, and prays. His devotion is nice, but recently, we cleaned house at an event. We went 3-0, all first round stoppages.

He had a mini-sermon and prayed. One of the fighters, during the session was kind of bouncy and not paying much attention at all. I put my hand on the back of his neck. He looked over and I nodded. I needed to be talking with this kid. He was set for competition in a half an hour and obviously needed some coaching and reassuring.
I was respectful though and bowed my head during.
At the end of the night, he was thankful to God for the victories for the gym. It being late, I didn't want to go there. My reply was, "I think they had a good mindset going in. I think we prepared them well. I think our training and their heart got them the wins tonight."

He vehemently disagreed. God was to be thanked for all the hard work.

Does anyone agree with me, religious or not, that this behavior, while it can have psychological influence on the right people, really doesn't belong there?

Click to expand...

No offense to you (I love MMA) but why would god actually give a damn about any sports? Also, what would even be the point of competition if god did everything?

Never seen God fight a battle yet, just out of interest, if your guys lose fights is then time to blame God?

It stands to reason that if he is to thank for victory he is to blame for defeat.

Likewise with the famine and the feast.

Not that I feel any credit belongs to any other than the fighters who took part,

Credit is very personal, like I had a 21 year old American kid use the phrase "we saved your *** in WW2", on a war forum I use, besides the fact the Germans lost 17 men to the Russians for every one they lost to the rest of us and we had already taken down the cream of their pilots and whipped the German and Italian surface fleets back into port never to come out to play again ((except I never did any of that ofcourse, so no credit can I take), that 21 year old was trying to share credit, ofcourse I had to say, neither of our behinds were in peril or coming to save anybody, we were not yet a twinkle in our dads eyes.

That said ive visited the war graves in France and the first thought was not to thank God for his sacrifices but to thank the men and women for thiers, the names on the graves covered a multitude of faiths and Gods worshipped between them, did the Gods let them down?

I dont accept Gods so I would say no, God is not to be thanked for the destruction of fascism, it was those men and women alone, and those lucky to survive that madness.

Your fighters take all the credit, you can take pride in your part too,

In war those than cant do the shooting can atleast make bullets.

I roll my eyes when I see someone praying before a fight. It's the usual "please let us be safe in the ring" prayer. WTF? Your object as a fighter is to pummel your opponent into submission whether it be by knockout (blows to the head could cause hemmorage), submission (damage to joints, ligaments and tendons),and chokes (could cause clots). So are they praying for "limited damage" to themselves and opponents? Religion has no place in competitive sports IMO. You aren't wishing the best for the other guy, especially if he's facing you.

I really don't see a problem in someone thanking God, as long as the person only speaks for himself or herself. It is only a problem if he or she speaks for the whole team, group, etc. We have to be sensitive to others.

ninerbuff said:

I roll my eyes when I see someone praying before a fight. It's the usual "please let us be safe in the ring" prayer. WTF? Your object as a fighter is to pummel your opponent into submission whether it be by knockout (blows to the head could cause hemorrhage), submission (damage to joints, ligaments and tendons),and chokes (could cause clots). So are they praying for "limited damage" to themselves and opponents? Religion has no place in competitive sports IMO. You aren't wishing the best for the other guy, especially if he's facing you.

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I don't think God really approves of fighting for sport, but that is just my opinion. :help:

Does he thank god when they lose? Does he blame god when they lose? Or not bring god into it at all when they lose?

(I've been practicing MMA for 7 11 years now and all that prayer during class would make me leave.)

Otherright said:

As a hobby, I teach striking at a freestyle MMA gym. My partner teaches ground fighting. He's a wizard on the ground and our talents complement one another greatly, but he is overly religious. We sometimes bump heads on this subject.

At the beginning of sessions, we pray. When the gym closes, he reads scripture, and prays. His devotion is nice, but recently, we cleaned house at an event. We went 3-0, all first round stoppages.

He had a mini-sermon and prayed. One of the fighters, during the session was kind of bouncy and not paying much attention at all. I put my hand on the back of his neck. He looked over and I nodded. I needed to be talking with this kid. He was set for competition in a half an hour and obviously needed some coaching and reassuring.
I was respectful though and bowed my head during.
At the end of the night, he was thankful to God for the victories for the gym. It being late, I didn't want to go there. My reply was, "I think they had a good mindset going in. I think we prepared them well. I think our training and their heart got them the wins tonight."

He vehemently disagreed. God was to be thanked for all the hard work.

Does anyone agree with me, religious or not, that this behavior, while it can have psychological influence on the right people, really doesn't belong there?

Click to expand...

Here's how I see it. It's ok to pray to God before a match if everyone is comfortable with it. Make sure they are as a coach first. The important part too is give thanks to both the kids or athletes and everyone involved as well to God. Don't leave anyone slighted because it is a always a combined effort. Or if the coach wanted thank all of those people but inwardly thank God.

Father Heathen said:

No offense to you (I love MMA) but why would god actually give a damn about any sports? Also, what would even be the point of competition if god did everything?

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Right, that's my point. I'm there to teach these young men a skill. I try and make sure they have the physical conditioning and skill sets they need to compete. I stand right there with them at ringside. I do the cut-man work as well. I don't want them hurt, in the gym, or the cage. That's what I do.

Its them that have chosen to do this. Its them that have the guts to step in there and do it, to spend their free time at the gym. They get the credit.

ChristineES said:

I don't think God really approves of fighting for sport, but that is just my opinion. :help:

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I don't look at it as violence, I look at it as competition. I've been involved in martial arts most of my life, mostly competition fighting. I also played football in school. I look at martial arts, just like I do football, only its not a team sport.

Its not just going out there an pummeling a guy, there is an art and science to it. I actually require a 4 hour clinic on the physics of striking.
In striking, my area of coaching, I'm teaching proper form to maximize the force behind the punch through kinetic linking. After that, I have to teach them how to recognize patterns, how to create angles and openings all while defending themselves.
I have to teach them how to set and counter-set, stalking, combos, the list goes on and on.

So, I don't really see this as a moral question of would God approve of such, besides, read the OT sometime.

averageJOE said:

Does he thank god when they lose? Does he blame god when they lose? Or not bring god into it at all when they lose?

(I've been practicing MMA for 7 11 years now and all that prayer during class would make me leave.)

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He usually doesn't bring God into it if we lose, at that moment, its our faults.

But there is something interesting to that. Last year, our middle-weight guy got a title shot with our promoter. It was a last minute spur of the moment thing. We found out the day before. I, ever cautious, said "No, he wasn't ready." My partner thought the kid was. He psyched the kid up. The kid's got a 14-2 record. Kid took the fight. Got completely destroyed in the first round.

We had a heated debate over that one.

On a funny side note, we were in the back locker rooms of the convention center where the event took place, getting this guy ready, and the champ, the guy he was fighting walked in. This locker room was so far away from anything else, I'm not even sure we were in the same building.

We stopped dead in our tracks. The champ looks at all three of us, we look at him, and he says, "Man, did I step into the wrong locker room?" We all laughed about it, shook his hand, wished him good luck, then watched him destroy our guy.

ChristineES said:

I don't think God really approves of fighting for sport, but that is just my opinion. :help:

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Well, he created us with violence in our blood, so why not express it in a way that's consensual, disciplined, fair, sporting, and regulated?

If fighting is to be accepted in our society, I would much prefer it be for sport than for other justifications.

The pro fighters I've met do approach it as craft and not something where emotion outweighs gamesmanship. You do the best you can to take your opponent down, but not out. It struck me that there is much respect for fellow fighters and hurting each other in a lasting way is 'not cool.'