The God Helmet

Elaborate. What do you mean?

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"Sensed presence and mystical experiences are predicted by suggestibility, not by the application of transcranial weak complex magnetic fields"

ScienceDirect - Neuroscience Letters : Sensed presence and mystical experiences are predicted by suggestibility, not by the application of transcranial weak complex magnetic fields

Also:

Two out of the three participants in the Swedish study that reported strong spiritual experiences during the study belonged to the control group

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BioEd Online: Electrical brainstorms busted as source of ghosts

Otherright said:

Well, I didn't mean it particularly like that. My wording was wrong. There isn't anything that is 'non-physical'. Even if something isn't physically seen, you'll see it at an atomic level. If not, then you'll see it at a quantum level.

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Fair enough.
In that case, we agree.

Gjallarhorn said:

Brain electrodes conjure up ghostly visions : Nature News

Ghosts chalked up to electric stimulation of the brain too?

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Right. It indicates experiments on the brain, like the "God Helmet," are no more an experience of god than of ghosts.

Hmmmmm...... While I have issues with Persinger himself, the experiments themselves have value, I think.

If we can learn to induce theophany, the possibilities are endless.

I find remember the source of this information but apparantly an independent double blind randomsied study of the God Helmet found that it performed no better than a placebo. Ultimately the subject experiences what they expect to experience depending on how superstitious a person they are and how much they believed in the effectiveness of the helmet.

Another criticism of the helmet was that the strength of the fields it generates are comparable or weaker than fields we are normally exposed to in our day to day life and therefore if the effect was real we should be routinely having such experienced but we don't.

I'll dig around and see if I can find where I read about this study.

Oneatatime said:

I find remember the source of this information but apparantly an independent double blind randomsied study of the God Helmet found that it performed no better than a placebo. Ultimately the subject experiences what they expect to experience depending on how superstitious a person they are and how much they believed in the effectiveness of the helmet.

Another criticism of the helmet was that the strength of the fields it generates are comparable or weaker than fields we are normally exposed to in our day to day life and therefore if the effect was real we should be routinely having such experienced but we don't.

I'll dig around and see if I can find where I read about this study.

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That is new information to me.
I'd be very interested to read the study if you can dig it up.

Would I try it? Definitely, I'd be interested to see what happens

Would it change my opinions? Unlikely. The fact that certain sensations can be simulated is well known and I've had pain killers before so I know what it's like to be "happied up". For this reason I think it's flawed to look at this experiment from a theological viewpoint at all. Reproducing the psychological effect of something tells us plenty about the neurochemicals involved, but nothing about the possibility (or lack thereof) of an outside cause.
The fact that I've been given morphine (legally by the way ) doesn't say anything about whether or not other things that give me pleasure exist for example.

Otherright said:

Would you be willing to go through a session with the helmet?

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Sure.

Otherright said:

Do you think it may change your religious ideas?

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Nah, mostly likely simply confirm them.

jarofthoughts said:

That is new information to me.
I'd be very interested to read the study if you can dig it up.

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I found the book (Paranormality: Why we see what isn't there, by Professor Richard Wiseman) and there are several references in it. Here they are...

P. Granqvist, M. Fredrikson, P. Unge, A. Hagenfeldt, S. Valind, D. Larhammar and M. Larsson (2005). 'Sensed presence and mystical experiences are predicted by suggestibility, not by the application of transcranial weak complex magnetic fields'. Neuroscience Letters, 379, pages 1-6.

M. Larsson, D. Larhammar, M. Fredrikson and P. Granqvist (2005) 'Reply to M.A. Persinger and S.A. Koren's response to Granqvist et al. "Sensed presence and mystical experiences are predicted by suggestibility, not by the application of transcrancial weak complex magnetic fields"'. Neuroscience Letters, 380, pages 348-50.

Other tests of magnetic fields...

C.C. French, U. Haque, R. Bunton-Stasyshyn and R. Davis (2009). 'The "Haunt" Project: An attempt to build a "haunted" room by manipulating complex electromagnetic fields and infrasound'. Cortex. 45, pages 619-29.

J.J Braithwaite (2008) 'Putting weak magnetism in its place: A Critical examination of the weak-intensity magnetic field account for anomalous haunt-type experiences'. Journal for the Society of Psychological Research, 890, pages 34-50.

J.J. and M. Townsend (2005). 'Sleeping with the entity: A quantative magnetic investigation of an English castle's reputedly haunted bedroom'. European Journal of Parapsychology. 20.1, pages 65-78.

Apologies for the lack of italics but I can't do them on my Wii. Also I don't know how good these journals are but here you go anyway.

Would I try it? Yes. Just to compare real meditational experiences to the pseudo ones.

Would it change my stance or beliefs? Quite simply no. The real question I want to know is how do they know this God helmet is giving real God like experiences? Are they trying it on people that have had real spiritual experiences? Indian Yogis perhaps?

Kriya Yogi said:

Would I try it? Yes. Just to compare real meditational experiences to the pseudo ones.

Would it change my stance or beliefs? Quite simply no. The real question I want to know is how do they know this God helmet is giving real God like experiences? Are they trying it on people that have had real spiritual experiences? Indian Yogis perhaps?

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I'm believe that the definition of a 'real spiritual experience' may be somewhat subjective and no doubt riddled with a lot of bickering over who is the most spiritual.

Oneatatime said:

I'm believe that the definition of a 'real spiritual experience' may be somewhat subjective and no doubt riddled with a lot of bickering over who is the most spiritual.

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Not to answer for KY, but not necessarily. We could agree upon the standards of neurotheology.

Storm said:

Not to answer for KY, but not necessarily. We could agree upon the standards of neurotheology.

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I have my doubts, not least because when relying on imaging brain activity you just end up comparing one set of brain activity against another. How do you objectively decide which is the spiritual one and which isn't? You still have to make a decision which is ultimately subjective because the subjects will all claim to be have having a spiritual experience.

Oneatatime said:

I found the book (Paranormality: Why we see what isn't there, by Professor Richard Wiseman) and there are several references in it. Here they are...

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Thanks.
I'll see if I can track some of them down.
Is the book any good by the way?
Worth buying?

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Do they?

I think it shows that these effects can be triggered by physical phenomena, but I don't see how they can show that they require physical phenomena to trigger them.

I mean, even if the right electromagnetic field will create these effects, most people who experience them aren't wearing a "God Helmet", so the cause must be something else. Maybe it's something physical and external; maybe it's something psychological; maybe it's something else... the studies don't really point one way or the other, except to suggest that it's possible (but not necessary) that experiences of the divine "in the wild" are caused by physical factors.

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I didn't say it shows that they require external physical phenomena to trigger them. If this works, though, it shows that there is a physical element to it. Most people that have mystical experiences, from all sorts of backgrounds, seem to have brains that can come to this state without external manipulation.

It holds for both triggering an experience like this, and measuring a naturally derived experience. For example, if an experienced meditator claims that during meditation, he experiences a lack of self or sense of oneness, and a measurement of brain activity shows that in particular, his parietal lobe, responsible for orientation in space and time, is reduced during meditation, then we've got a pretty strong clue about how this is coming about, and which area to study.

Some may not like the idea that these things have physical roots, but looking at it another way, studying it can help increase the effectiveness of it. Studying brain activity from different types of meditation and prayer can show which types are most successful at increasing concentration, or wakefulness, or a sense of oneness and mystical experience.

jarofthoughts said:

Thanks.
I'll see if I can track some of them down.
Is the book any good by the way?
Worth buying?

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I enjoyed it because it covered a wide variety of subjects and took an evidence based approach to addressing claims. The author was actually a magician before becoming academically interested in why people are the way they are which no doubt contributed to his enjoyable writing style, he was an entertainer after all.

The author doesn't slag anyone else either which is nice. I find books which just slag people off a bit tiresome and innevitably such authors go beyond the limits of evidence to make their position appear stronger, even when they have already made a decent case.

Oneatatime said:

I enjoyed it because it covered a wide variety of subjects and took an evidence based approach to addressing claims. The author was actually a magician before becoming academically interested in why people are the way they are which no doubt contributed to his enjoyable writing style, he was an entertainer after all.

The author doesn't slag anyone else either which is nice. I find books which just slag people off a bit tiresome and innevitably such authors go beyond the limits of evidence to make their position appear stronger, even when they have already made a decent case.

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Excellent.
I'll look for it at the local book stores, or barring that, Amazon. ^_^

Storm said:

Hmmmmm...... While I have issues with Persinger himself, the experiments themselves have value, I think.

If we can learn to induce theophany, the possibilities are endless.

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For this particular one to have more credibility, it will need to put forth peer reviewed results. I find most interest in the studies that directly measure experiences of meditation and prayer.

I think science is still mainly in the stage where they can measure some effects from these sorts of experiences, but to safely and reliably cause them, it may require more understanding.

These effects seem neat, but if there has been a peer reviewed paper showing that they were unable to reproduce the proposed results like a previous link shows, and his counter-claim that the repeat testers didn't apply the helmet for long enough, then it looks like more studies and/or a refinement in the helmet will be needed. Continuing to measure this sort of experience can continue providing data needed.

Penumbra said:

For this particular one to have more credibility, it will need to put forth peer reviewed results. I find most interest in the studies that directly measure experiences of meditation and prayer.

I think we're still mainly in the stage where we can measure some effects from these sorts of experiences, but to safely and reliably cause them, it may require more understanding.

These effects seem neat, but if there has been a peer reviewed paper showing that they were unable to reproduce the proposed results, and his counter-claim that the repeat testers didn't apply the helmet for long enough, then it looks like more studies and/or a refinement in the helmet will be needed. Continuing to measure this sort of experience can continue providing data needed.

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Oh, I agree entire.

Neurotheology just excites me.

Storm said:

Oh, I agree entire.

Neurotheology just excites me.

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It will be an extremely interesting and perhaps dangerous time when the brain is more fully understood.

There are all sorts of studies that are on the very outer edge of something phenomenal. There are ones like these and ones that measure religious activity to see how the brain changes under conditions of meditation, prayer, and various experiences. There is research in the area of linking up the brain with machines, to for example allow a paralyzed person to move a cursor on the screen with the mind only.

The brain, consisting of billions of neurons and trillions of synapses, is like a huge puzzle that's hard to interface with, and apparently scientists can only do so superficially at the moment, but all sorts of possibilities and risks open up as they understand it more and more.